Police shot knife wielding man in Philadelphia , rioting ensues

[mect]

I do. The root cause of some rioting is police behavior, I am not debating that, but its also a chicken/egg discussion, that’s turned into a raging dumpster fire because its an election year during a global pandemic.

I agree its a chicken/egg discussion, I just don't understand why you insist on focusing on holding the rioters accountable, whom our government has no direct control over, vs police officers, who are government employees.

 

[mect]

You do realize that had an ordinary citizen wielding a legally permitted gun had a person advance on them wielding a knife and had shot that person, the gun wielder would almost certainly get off on self-defense, right? This isn't even a cop issue. It's just the law of self-defense.

Of course. That is far more reasonable to me. An ordinary citizen is not trained in handling armed people, so it is far more reasonable for them to use excessive force to promote their own safety.

You do realize that in any other developed, nation other than the united states a person acting aggressively towards police officers with a knife is far more likely to survive the encounter, yes? But hey, they're just poor black people. Businesses are burning down.

 

[pmv]

Knives are the second most common murder weapon after guns. In the US, where we have lots of guns, there are about 7x more gun murders than knife murders. In Europe, it's nearly 50/50, probably because it is harder to obtain guns.

I can only assume that a murderer's choice of weapon is based on its utility and effectiveness in accomplishing his purpose. By that metric, knives are apparently the second most lethal weapon, at least of those commonly available.

A ratio of 7 to 1 doesn't suggest that knives are particularly close in lethality to guns.
And use as a 'murder weapon' likely includes a lot of different situations, few of which would be akin to an adult male, fit and trained, police officer (possibly with others nearby) being at a distance from the knife-weilder. Probably wearing body armour of some sort. Again, the question is surely how many police officers are killed by stabbing?

 

[woolfe9998]

I agree its a chicken/egg discussion, I just don't understand why you insist on focusing on holding the rioters accountable, whom our government has no direct control over, vs police officers, who are government employees.

They are accountable themselves, as individuals, for their own choices. Choosing to riot over that video in a city within the confines of what may well be the tipping point state in an election where Trump is running on "law and order" does not reflect terribly good judgment.

We can have a discussion about the police side of this, in the vein of reform, preferably a peaceful discussion, and preferably after the election. For now, dialing it back and focusing on voting seems like the prudent thing to do, no? There isn't going to be any reform if we don't first remove the cancer in the oval office.

 

[mect]

Knives are the second most common murder weapon after guns. In the US, where we have lots of guns, there are about 7x more gun murders than knife murders. In Europe, it's nearly 50/50, probably because it is harder to obtain guns.

I can only assume that a murderer's choice of weapon is based on its utility and effectiveness in accomplishing his purpose. By that metric, knives are apparently the second most lethal weapon, at least of those commonly available.

And how many of those knife murders are against individuals armed with a gun? Over a four year period, only two police officers were killed by knives. Comparing this to the number of people killed by police officers, and it would seem the latter is the bigger problem.

Note that nowhere have I claimed that it is unjustified for a police officer to shoot someone attacking them with a knife, only that the presence of a knife by itself should not be considered automatic justification for the police to use lethal force. I've said multiple times, I'm not judging this specific situation, but our police are killing people at a rate unmatched by other nations. That's not something to strive for.

 

[pmv]

Knives are the second most common murder weapon after guns. In the US, where we have lots of guns, there are about 7x more gun murders than knife murders. In Europe, it's nearly 50/50, probably because it is harder to obtain guns.

I can only assume that a murderer's choice of weapon is based on its utility and effectiveness in accomplishing his purpose. By that metric, knives are apparently the second most lethal weapon, at least of those commonly available.

Not many police officers killed with knives here in the UK, judging from this list.

What's distressing is the number killed by firearms. Even here that's greater than the number stabbed. And motorised vehicles seem to be a particularly lethal weapon (I say ban them!). Also a disconcerting number just 'collapsed and died', after a pursuit or fracas - presumably from existing heart problems?

List of British police officers killed in the line of duty - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[woolfe9998]

And how many of those knife murders are against individuals armed with a gun? Over a four year period, only two police officers were killed by knives. Comparing this to the number of people killed by police officers, and it would seem the latter is the bigger problem.

Yes, probably because they have guns and "you don't bring a knife to a gun fight." That statistic doesn't represent what would happen if officers were required to use tasers and clubs, instead.

Note that nowhere have I claimed that it is unjustified for a police officer to shoot someone attacking them with a knife, only that the presence of a knife by itself should not be considered automatic justification for the police to use lethal force. I've said multiple times, I'm not judging this specific situation, but our police are killing people at a rate unmatched by other nations. That's not something to strive for.

It's not the presence of the knife, though. It's the knife plus moving toward the officers while wielding the knife. Had he been standing still, even ignoring orders to drop the knife, the shoot would not have been justified. Also, here the officers didn't resort to shooting first. They instead backed away, trying to put distance between them, but he kept advancing.

 

[mect]

They are accountable themselves, as individuals, for their own choices. Choosing to riot over that video in a city within the confines of what may well be the tipping point state in an election where Trump is running on "law and order" does not reflect terribly good judgment.

We can have a discussion about the police side of this, in the vein of reform, preferably a peaceful discussion, and preferably after the election. For now, dialing it back and focusing on voting seems like the prudent thing to do, no? There isn't going to be any reform if we don't first remove the cancer in the oval office.

Of course it is the prudent thing to do. But how do you accomplish this? You accomplish this by getting the police to stop killing people.

Its easy to sit from our positions of comfort and privilege and judge the people rioting in the streets. After all, I'm white, my family is white, I come from a solid middle class background. Its not my friends and family that are dying. Its not my friends and family sitting in jail waiting for a trial with no chance of bail because I could afford to post bail. I'm not getting pulled over for the color of my skin. I'm not experiencing excessive force from police officers. I'm not getting drugs planted in my car. But hey, just be patient. We'll fix these problems. One day. For now, let the police rage.

 

[woolfe9998]

Of course it is the prudent thing to do. But how do you accomplish this? You accomplish this by getting the police to stop killing people.

Some perspective on police killings in the US. According WaPo's multi-year study of these killings, nearly 70% involved individuals armed with firearms.

We have 20x the number of guns per capita than they do in Europe. You think the cops facing gun wielders far more often might have something to do with the disparity in number of people killed by police?

Its easy to sit from our positions of comfort and privilege and judge the people rioting in the streets. After all, I'm white, my family is white, I come from a solid middle class background. Its not my friends and family that are dying. Its not my friends and family sitting in jail waiting for a trial with no chance of bail because I could afford to post bail. I'm not getting pulled over for the color of my skin. I'm not experiencing excessive force from police officers. I'm not getting drugs planted in my car. But hey, just be patient. We'll fix these problems. One day. For now, let the police rage.

Yes, be patient. For another week. Then be patient awhile longer until Trump physically leaves office. Biden wants a police reform bill. Yet it isn't only police violence which is an issue in this election. Democracy is at stake in this country. And any sort of reform of anything is contingent on its preservation.

 

[mect]

Some perspective on police killings in the US. According WaPo's multi-year study of these killings, nearly 70% involved individuals armed with firearms.

We have 20x the number of guns per capita than they do in Europe. You think the cops facing gun wielders far more often might have something to do with the disparity in number of people killed by police?

Okay, so lets do some math. If 70% involved individuals armed with fire arms, lets just pull those from the picture, That would decrease our numbers by 70%. Just to keep things simple, lets say that in the US we have 30 police shootings per year, compared to 1 in western Europe. Ignoring police killings involving people with guns, that would drop us to 9. Or in other words, even if you neglect the number of people our police kill who have a gun on them, but still count those for Europe, our police officers still kill 9x as many people as police in Western European countries. So no, I don't think presence of guns themselves account for this disparity. I think our police officers are overly violent.

Yes, be patient. For another week. Then be patient awhile longer until Trump physically leaves office. It isn't only police violence which is an issue in this election. Democracy is at stake in this country. And any sort of reform of anything is contingent on its preservation.

As I said, I agree, be patient. But as I said, I'm not the one being directly impacted by this. There is a difference between saying "we understand, but please keep the protests peaceful" compared to saying "your rioting is going to cost us the election" or "your rioting justifies the police violence". Telling these communities that its their fault if we lose the election doesn't help anything. Telling these people that they are to blame, not the police, is just going to incite them to more violence. What many here are advocating for is the verbal equivalent of Trump sending federal troops to put down riots in Portland. It just escalates the situation.

 

[KMFJD]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1321869280951050240

attacked and beat the kids parents who were just trying to get out of the area right in front of the kid , kidnapped the kid, and then used him as a prop in a propaganda piece meant to make them look like the good guys

 

[woolfe9998]

Okay, so lets do some math. If 70% involved individuals armed with fire arms, lets just pull those from the picture, That would decrease our numbers by 70%. Just to keep things simple, lets say that in the US we have 30 police shootings per year, compared to 1 in western Europe. Ignoring police killings involving people with guns, that would drop us to 9. Or in other words, even if you neglect the number of people our police kill who have a gun on them, but still count those for Europe, our police officers still kill 9x as many people as police in Western European countries. So no, I don't think presence of guns themselves account for this disparity. I think our police officers are overly violent.

I agree, the presence of more guns isn't 100% of the explanation. The problem is that people often cite the total numbers in comparison without even addressing it as per capita, and they always leave out the fact that US police are far more likely to encounter assailants with guns. If we have a problem, we first need to be honest about its actual magnitude.

In the US, about 30 people per 10 million are killed by police yearly. It's about 1000 per year, out of about 16,000 homicide deaths. We have ~3,000,000 deaths yearly in the US. Homicide is the 15th leading cause. Police homicide is probably the 100th.

Of the 1000 police killings, how many were justified versus unjustified? Figure out approximately how many are unjustified, and that is the statistical magnitude of the problem.

It's worth pursuing police reform, and not only in relation to killings, but across the board. However, the actual magnitude of the problem of police killings is being exaggerated because videos are now available which weren't before, and because honestly the media is putting a huge spotlight on certain cases.

As I said, I agree, be patient. But as I said, I'm not the one being directly impacted by this. There is a difference between saying "we understand, but please keep the protests peaceful" compared to saying "your rioting is going to cost us the election" or "your rioting justifies the police violence". Telling these communities that its their fault if we lose the election doesn't help anything. Telling these people that they are to blame, not the police, is just going to incite them to more violence. What many here are advocating for is the verbal equivalent of Trump sending federal troops to put down riots in Portland. It just escalates the situation.

The rioting doesn't justify the police violence, but it could indeed cost us the election. Indeed, Biden will still likely win, but in spite of the rioting, not because of it.

The importance of this election cannot be underestimated.

 

[mect]

The rioting doesn't justify the police violence, but it could indeed cost us the election. Indeed, Biden will still likely win, but in spite of the rioting, not because of it.

The importance of this election cannot be underestimated.

Okay, so if you want to decrease it, you should think more carefully about how you address it, and avoid using language that will exacerbate the problem.

 

[Starbuck1975]

I agree its a chicken/egg discussion, I just don't understand why you insist on focusing on holding the rioters accountable, whom our government has no direct control over, vs police officers, who are government employees.

Because the violent and irresponsible behavior of the rioters necessitates a police response. If Trump now wins PA and the election as a result, that will be the fault of the rioters and the rioters alone.

 

[soundforbjt]

Because the violent and irresponsible behavior of the rioters necessitates a police response. If Trump now wins PA and the election as a result, that will be the fault of the rioters and the rioters alone.

IF Trump wins PA, it will be because of him/courts stopping counting of votes, not "rioters".

 

[mect]

Because the violent and irresponsible behavior of the rioters necessitates a police response. If Trump now wins PA and the election as a result, that will be the fault of the rioters and the rioters alone.

Why does it necessitate a police repsonse? I agree, in an ideal world where we can get a police response that improves the situation, then it would. However, if the police response makes everything worse, at some point you have to step back and figure out how to deescalate the situation.

And no, if Biden loses that is the result of people that voted for Trump. People need to quit forcing the oppressed to just let society keep its boot on their necks, or else they carry the blame for trying to get it off, violently if necessary. It is the people in a state of privilege and power that bear the responsibility for improving society, because they are the ones with the ability to do so. The oppressed are using the only tools they know how to use.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Why does it necessitate a police repsonse? I agree, in an ideal world where we can get a police response that improves the situation, then it would. However, if the police response makes everything worse, at some point you have to step back and figure out how to deescalate the situation.

And no, if Biden loses that is the result of people that voted for Trump. People need to quit forcing the oppressed to just let society keep its boot on their necks, or else they carry the blame for trying to get it off, violently if necessary. It is the people in a state of privilege and power that bear the responsibility for improving society, because they are the ones with the ability to do so. The oppressed are using the only tools they know how to use.

I was listening to a talk with Greg Carr (astoundingly smart dude) and he was talking about the legacy of CT Vivian. Vivian posited that revolution is forced upon a populace, not deliberately chosen, because they have no longer have any means of power to enact change.

I think that's a very astute observation. If the system won't change things for people, eventually people will change it for themselves, and then it becomes a matter of when, not if.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Why does it necessitate a police repsonse? I agree, in an ideal world where we can get a police response that improves the situation, then it would. However, if the police response makes everything worse, at some point you have to step back and figure out how to deescalate the situation.

And no, if Biden loses that is the result of people that voted for Trump. People need to quit forcing the oppressed to just let society keep its boot on their necks, or else they carry the blame for trying to get it off, violently if necessary. It is the people in a state of privilege and power that bear the responsibility for improving society, because they are the ones with the ability to do so. The oppressed are using the only tools they know how to use.

Looting, arson and rioting necessitates a police response because it creates a public safety hazard, and infringes on the civil rights of residents and business owners. Nearly every riot has resulted in deaths or injuries due to violence amongst the rioters.

 

[Starbuck1975]

I was listening to a talk with Greg Carr (astoundingly smart dude) and he was talking about the legacy of CT Vivian. Vivian posited that revolution is forced upon a populace, not deliberately chosen, because they have no longer have any means of power to enact change.

I think that's a very astute observation. If the system won't change things for people, eventually people will change it for themselves, and then it becomes a matter of when, not if.

You’re not going to achieve societal change through looting

 

[zzyzxroad]

Any history buffs know if the Spanish Flu has any link to the Red Summer riots? We had a global pandemic and racially related rioting around the same time 100 years ago.

I believe the frequency of the current rioting has a lot to do with the stress people are under because of the pandemic.

 

[mect]

Looting, arson and rioting necessitates a police response because it creates a public safety hazard, and infringes on the civil rights of residents and business owners. Nearly every riot has resulted in deaths or injuries due to violence amongst the rioters.

So, please share all the deaths that have resulted from the American riots that have consumed our cities. I'll wait.

 

[Fenixgoon]

You’re not going to achieve societal change through looting

and yet one of the seminal moments in american history involves protest via destruction of property

 

[Starbuck1975]

and yet one of the seminal moments in american history involves protest via destruction of property

So now we’re comparing the Boston Tea Party to looting Walmart? lol

 

[soundforbjt]

So now we’re comparing the Boston Tea Party to looting Walmart? lol

You do realize the looting in Philly was taking place 10 MILES from where the protest was being held. (Fun fact: I actually heard this on Fox News)

 

[Starbuck1975]

So, please share all the deaths that have resulted from the American riots that have consumed our cities. I'll wait.

You won’t have to wait long, a simple Google search had numerous hits. You also said riots and not BLM, these are all deaths attributed to the protests.

Last I checked, the death count was around 30ish, here are some that hit the national news:

David Dorn, killed protecting a jewelry store in St. Louis

Berry Perkins, killed by a FedEx truck trying to escape looters

Dorian Murrell, shot in Indianapolis for reasons unknown

Italia Kelly, shot in Iowa during protests for reasons unknown

Marquis Tousan, shot by police in Iowa

James Scurlock, shot during an altercation with rioters at a bar in Nebraska

Victor Cazares, shot in Chicago

Patrick Underwood, DHS security assassinated in Oakland

Jorge Gomez, raised his weapon at officers in Las Vegas during a protest