Police shoot man to death at Carls Jr

[Genx87]

sarcasm aside i have to assume they need certification to carry a gun... shooting a target 4-5 feet away shouldn't be an issue for any police officer.

Your expectations of accuracy under duress are unrealistic.

 

[airdata]

also don't try to kill them.

The only clear intent to kill was from the police officer. swinging a pipe or something at somebody can be done with no expectation of killing them.

Your expectations of accuracy under duress are unrealistic.

Not if these guys are trained to react properly... Can't blame anybody else if all they did at their shooting classes was eat krispy kremes and shoot the shit.

 

[DrPizza]

For an amateur. They're supposed to be trained professionals.

And a trained professional knows that shooting someone in the leg is not an effective stopping force. The guy wasn't swinging the pipe with is leg, he was swinging with his arms. That guy is wielding the same amount of lethal force before being shot in the leg as he would be after being shot in the leg. If a taser didn't take him down, what makes you think a shot to the leg will take him down. Adrenalin is a hell of a thing. Go hunting - shoot a deer in the leg. It's going to go for a LONG time. (If not recover on its own, eventually.) There are numerous videos of individuals being shot multiple times in the chest, who remain standing and in attack mode; at least for a few 10's of seconds.

 

[spidey07]

The only clear intent to kill was from the police officer. swinging a pipe or something at somebody can be done with no expectation of killing them.



Not if these guys are trained to react properly... Can't blame anybody else if all they did at their shooting classes was eat krispy kremes and shoot the shit.

Bullshit. You swing a pipe at me and even as a citizen I am fully justified in shooting you. Fully justified. That is an attempt to kill or cause grave bodily injury, lethal force justified.

 

[brandonb]

After repeated attempts and orders to drop the weapon, you refuse, then are somehow surprised that other force is used against you when you refuse to drop the weapon? yes you will be.

Don't want to get shot? Drop the weapon when police order you to do so, and also don't lunge at officers with weapon, also don't try to kill them, don't point a gun at them, don't approach them with a knife/weapon, don't try to run over them with a car, nor a plane, nor a boat, don't try to knock them down and go for their weapon, don't have somebody waiting to attack them via surprise. These simple steps can prevent you from getting killed. When the police are yelling drop the weapon and get on the ground, what should you do?

That's right kids, you need to drop that weapon and get on the ground. Any other action is NOT the correct thing to do.

I apologize, I don't have speakers on the computer, I had to judge my opinion based on video only, and no sound. But yes I agree with you in that case.

 

[irishScott]

find a safe spot to shoot someone... keep in mind you don't even have to hit a major artery or vein to nick it and you have to take organs into account.

even if your hand wasn't shaking, your adrenalin pumping and you had all the time in the world to aim you wouldn't be able to "shoot someone safely" in a way that would stop them.

A million x this.

People who say cops should go for leg shots have never handled a firearm and know nothing about the "training" your average cop has. Or physiology if they think a leg shot is non-lethal.

 

[dmcowen674]

Police shoot man to death at Carls Jr

Video is taken from inside of a car w\ wet windows...
They taze him and he doesn't go down ( sweater too thick? ) and then he goes to swing whatever he has pipe/ sledge hammer at one of the cops and is shot 5 times. Then is shot 5 more times after he hits the ground.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY5ioBvrYIg&feature=player_embedded#!

I'm going with unjustified use of force here and anxiously await all of the people posting w\ joy at the guy being killed.

I just think they should have used other non lethal methods before jumping straight to 10 gun shots. Shoot him in the leg or other non vital spots before killing him.

I thank them for saving taxpayer money :thumbsup:

 

[xj0hnx]

sarcasm aside i have to assume they need certification to carry a gun... shooting a target 4-5 feet away shouldn't be an issue for any police officer.

You've never fired a firearm under duress have you you?

The only clear intent to kill was from the police officer. swinging a pipe or something at somebody can be done with no expectation of killing them.



Not if these guys are trained to react properly... Can't blame anybody else if all they did at their shooting classes was eat krispy kremes and shoot the shit.

You have not a clue of that which you speak. No one trains to wound. Wound serves no purpose other than to A) Cause someone pain, B) Allow a perp to continue engaging. When you draw a firearm, it is to shoot to stop your target, not just hurt them, and allow them further aggression.

 

[irishScott]

The only clear intent to kill was from the police officer. swinging a pipe or something at somebody can be done with no expectation of killing them.



Not if these guys are trained to react properly... Can't blame anybody else if all they did at their shooting classes was eat krispy kremes and shoot the shit.

I've outshot cops I know at the range, and I probably couldn't make a leg shot under stress unless it was at point blank.

Plus here's a hint about leg shots: You hit that big artery in the leg, even nick it, and remember they're using expanding rounds that don't make a neat little hole, and you're dead in 3 minutes without serious medical attention. Non-lethal my ass.

 

[davmat787]

Cops should be using old Colt Single Action Army's. They always manage to shoot the revolver out of the other guys hand or sever the hangman's noose. Given that, performing what Airdata is asking for would have been no problem. What do cops see in Sig's and Glocks anyway?

Airdata, the real question is whether the police used proper escalation of force. IANAL, but I would be very surprised if they did not. Assuming that is the case, your problem should lie with the PD's policy, not the action itself per se.

 

[davmat787]

The only clear intent to kill was from the police officer. swinging a pipe or something at somebody can be done with no expectation of killing them.

Did you know that if you merely brandish a knife within 10-20 feet (depends on the PD's policy) that it is to be considered as deadly force? There are some training videos on the web you might want to check out, that show just how quickly someone can get on an officer with a knife. The cops were not able to draw their service pistol before the attacker was on them, even from those distances.

 

[irishScott]

Cops should be using old Colt Single Action Army's. They always manage to shoot the revolver out of the other guys hand or sever the hangman's noose. Given that, performing what Airdata is asking for would have been no problem. What do cops see in Sig's and Glocks anyway?

Airdata, the real question is whether the police used proper escalation of force. IANAL, but I would be very surprised if they did not. Assuming that is the case, your problem should lie with the PD's policy, not the action itself per se.

His problem, as you pointed out, is treating movies like they're real enough to base judgments on them.

Airdata: I have a challenge for you. Find me some confirmed real-world stories about cops explicitly using leg shots tactically. Ever. I await your links.

 

[xj0hnx]

Did you know that if you merely brandish a knife within 10-20 feet (depends on the PD's policy) that it is to be considered as deadly force? There are some training videos on the web you might want to check out, that show just how quickly someone can get on an officer with a knife. The cops were not able to draw their service pistol before the attacker was on them, even from those distances.

Yea, it's very true. People think that if you are so far away you can easily shoot them, but the fact is that between the time an officer assesses the threat, and the threat can be within striking distance, they can cover a pretty large area.

 

[airdata]

I thank them for saving taxpayer money :thumbsup:

Not really.

I'm willing to bet a wrongful death suit will yield more than the cost of whatever prison sentence he'd be given for attempting to assault a police officer or even the cost of life in prison.


These guys sit around and eat donuts all day and simply aren't prepared for situations like this despite all of the training they have to have.

Why didn't they let the dog loose on him?

 

[Patranus]

Don't attack the police with a pipe if you don't want to get shot.
Not sure why this is such a hard concept.

 

[Broheim]

I've outshot cops I know at the range, and I probably couldn't make a leg shot under stress unless it was at point blank.

Plus here's a hint about leg shots: You hit that big artery in the leg, even nick it, and remember they're using expanding rounds that don't make a neat little hole, and you're dead in 3 minutes without serious medical attention. Non-lethal my ass.

I love watching slow motion balistics test in balistics gel, hydrostatic shock is a bitch.

 

[davmat787]

I love watching slow motion balistics test in balistics gel, hydrostatic shock is a bitch.

Great way to visualize that nasty tendency of the 5.56 and 5.7 rounds to tumble and create greater wound channels. Out of curiosity, what was the standard issue battle rifle for your group in the 'Stan?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally Posted by dmcowen674
I thank them for saving taxpayer money :thumbsup:

Not really.

I'm willing to bet a wrongful death suit will yield more than the cost of whatever prison sentence he'd be given for attempting to assault a police officer or even the cost of life in prison.


These guys sit around and eat donuts all day and simply aren't prepared for situations like this despite all of the training they have to have.

Why didn't they let the dog loose on him?

404 Wrongful Death Not Found

Life in prison costs a ton of taxpayer money

 

[davmat787]

Not really.

I'm willing to bet a wrongful death suit will yield more than the cost of whatever prison sentence he'd be given for attempting to assault a police officer or even the cost of life in prison.


These guys sit around and eat donuts all day and simply aren't prepared for situations like this despite all of the training they have to have.

Why didn't they let the dog loose on him?

That sentence seems contradictory. Are they sitting around all day, or busy training with all the training they have to have, as you put it?

Do you know how often LEO's must re-certify their firearm proficiency?

And again, I think you may be missing a key point. LEO's train to follow policy when drawing their firearm, not just accuracy. So have you asked yourself if the police in this case were following policy and proper escalation of force? If so, it looks like they were trained to a 'T' so to speak, right?

 

[airdata]

Don't attack the police with a pipe if you don't want to get shot.
Not sure why this is such a hard concept.

The main point here kids... pay attention... Over-reaction.

Even If we all agreed about them having the right to shoot him... 5 shots doesn't make sense. neither does 5 additional shots when he's clearly at that point fatally wounded as is.


The cop over reacted by shooting that many times. After getting shot once the guy wasn't attacker stopped. after that one, it stopped being about defense.

Also.. police need to work on their statements in the age of the internet. They constantly give inaccurate statements without realizing all of their actions are taped.

Police said the Taser was ineffective, and the suspect swung the three-foot metal bar at officers twice. At least one officer opened fire on the suspect.

He lunged. He didn't even swing it before he was shot. They probably didn't know they were being video taped... Hence why police don't want people video taping them.

 

[airdata]

Oh... Im sorry.
I had to watch again.
After getting shot 5 times he was turned around and they shot him 5 more in the back. Not on the ground.

I'm almost tempted to dig up the BART execution thread and see patranus defend them executing that guy that they had cuffed.

 

[spidey07]

The main point here kids... pay attention... Over-reaction.

Even If we all agreed about them having the right to shoot him... 5 shots doesn't make sense. neither does 5 additional shots when he's clearly at that point fatally wounded as is.


The cop over reacted by shooting that many times. After getting shot once the guy wasn't attacker stopped. after that one, it stopped being about defense.

You always train to fire as many shots as possible, as quickly as possible. Notice the officer also was advancing as he was shooting. Once lethal force is needed (and we've already established the other officers life was in imminent danger), it is supposed to be lethal force. If they guy happens to live, lucky for him. If not, that is the expected outcome of LETHAL force.

By. The. Book.

 

[waggy]

The main point here kids... pay attention... Over-reaction.

Even If we all agreed about them having the right to shoot him... 5 shots doesn't make sense. neither does 5 additional shots when he's clearly at that point fatally wounded as is.


The cop over reacted by shooting that many times. After getting shot once the guy wasn't attacker stopped. after that one, it stopped being about defense.

no. the main point is if you don't want to get shot 10 times (or even once) you don't try to attack teh cops with a crowbar,ice pick, whatever the fuck that is.

its rather easy. see!? i didn't get shot! why? i didn't attack a cop! holly shit you did it too!

 

[Broheim]

Great way to visualize that nasty tendency of the 5.56 and 5.7 rounds to tumble and create greater wound channels. Out of curiosity, what was the standard issue battle rifle for your group in the 'Stan?

the C7A1 (called the M/95 in Denmark) was standard issue for combat troops (and conscripts), it's a colt canada produced m16A3 I believe, not completely sure about the version. but honestly it was a mix of C7s and C8s (M4).

I was issued the MG3 (too) though (an updated version of the MG42 the germans used in WWII), it's chambered with 7.62x51.

 

[davmat787]

I was issued the MG3 (too) though (an updated version of the MG42 the germans used in WWII), it's chambered with 7.62x51.

Hitlers buzzsaw... modernized? :awe: