So the question was???????????????????????????????Originally posted by: ahurtt
That it is. But ask yourself this too. . .is the flea that has never been in a box right or wrong in what he says to the flea that used to be, but is not any longer, in a box? Physically, both fleas are equally capable. The physical barrier has been removed from the "boxed" flea now and he can jump as high as he is physically able if only he can break his mode of "victimized" thinking. The barrier is in his mind now and his mind only. But if fleas are like people, they can be remarkably stubborn and the flea that used to be in the box will simply refuse to accept the reality that the other flea tells him. If only our minds were as adaptable mentally as our bodies are physically. . .You can start working out in the gym and start seeing results in a month or less. . .but when it comes to changing people's minds. . .it is amazing how long people will hold on to old, outdated modes of thinking. It has a lot to do with the willingness a person has to step outside their established mental "comfort zone" and explore new ideas and new possible realities.Originally posted by: Moonbeam
So simple and yet so incredibly profound.Originally posted by: 1prophet
The flea syndrome.
To train a flea put it in a box with a lid, it will continually jump and hit its head until it realizes it can't jump higher than the lid and adjust its jump accordingly.
Then you remove the lid but the flea never jumps higher than the height of the box after that, the physical barrier has been replaced by a psychological one.
Along comes a flea that never had a barrier placed over its head and can't understand why the previous flea can't jump out of the box since it wasn't there to witness the lid in place over its head.
So the flea that can jump says to the one that can't "what's wrong with you, there is nothing over your head holding you back, you expect me to come give you a handout, jump out of that box yourself and if you can't you must be lazy and like it in there"
How many pins can you stand on the head of an angel?
If you blame a victim do you do so because they are a victim? No, you say they deserve what they got so they aren't victims in that person's mind. If you say somebody has a victim mentality you similarly say they aren't victims. Thus:
My point was, not that victim mentality and blaming the victim are the same thing, but that the notion of victim mentality, its evocation as a put down of victims exists as a result of the impulse to blame the victim. People really do blame victims, even victims of victim mentality.
I'm truly not p1ssed...disappointed maybe that someone doesn't (for whatever reason) help themself when help is available, but not p1ssed. And just to clarify, it's not me being disappointed because I didn't get the satisfaction of helping someone, it's the disappointment of someone suffering more than they need to unnecessairily. But, it's their choice Moonbeam, not mine.
See, it's really these type of comments that make people just write you off as a loon. Why would you even feel you know me well enough to tell me that I don't know what I feel? Did you get some serious help from a shrink and now think your self discoveries about yourself apply to others? If you do, please go back, you need additional guideance...
Chuck
i dont know exactly what he is trying to say..but..i think it touches on what you already said..although he seems to be unaware of a certain factor in the scenario..
the flea is incapable of escaping his mental boundaries...
and then he might say well hey, were are talking about people..not fleas..
unfortunately the chains that bind a flea's mental response are the same that bind a humans response..(or at least they are similar in nature)
the difference being that humans have a pseudo moralistic code that demands that individuals do what to them seems impossible
there are some situations where a person is capable of changing their life..but until that bell or light bulb or whatever you like to call it goes off in their head, they are incapable
i know this from personal experience as i have undergone heavy changes in my way of thinking ..there is nothing I could have done prior to those AHA moments that would have sped it up, at least that I was aware of (rendering me incapable, at least temporarily)
no matter how apparent something is to one person, if another person can't see it, then they cant see it..it doesnt matter how much you think they are nasty ugly or a pile of shit unworthy of help or life..those feelings are your own and are wholly unrelated to the ability of the other person
I think most people would say this when they believe someone is blaming someone else for their inability to surpass a wrong. You're afforded sympathy to ease your pain as you recuperate from a wrong done towards you but are also expected to be wise about the opportunities that present themselves.
As a hispanic person, I've found that most in my community blame their papers for any economic shortcomings. While this may seem true, I think it really only means that it will be harder for them.
The bolded part above is the only thing I take issue with in what you said here. People (or fleas in this case) are not incapable. They often (not always) only think, believe, or perceive themselves to be incapable. And since perception is reality in as far as an individual is concerned, it follows that the reality the person suffering from "victim mentality" sees is colored by what he/she believes to be the true nature of the world around them. The "non-boxed" flea can plainly see that there is no longer any physical barrier over the other flea . . .as can everybody else. . .except for the mentally limited flea who used to be in the box. You said yourself you are a perfect example of how a person can break the mental chains that bind them and change their reality by changing their perception of the world. The light bulb of which you speak is called "personal responsibility." Who knows what can trigger it in some people? I think only a strong enough desire to change a situation will force it on. Perhaps it is the innate resistance to the natural forces of change that seems so ingrained in most of our psyches that causes us to behave in this seemingly self-defeating and contradictory way such that we would rather suffer and be bitter at the world than get up and start accepting other realities. . .realities in which somebody else is trying to help us if we will only listen and where not everybody is out to get us. And that's what I meant when I talked about people's willingness to step outside their established mental "comfort zone." The so-called "grumpy old man" is a prime example of this. He is like the flea who was put in the box. He likes things how they used to be and refuses to acknowledge changes or advances in the world around him. His mind is set and there's no changing it. His thought patterns are so old and established that changing them would be a feat of superhuman-like ability. So I see what you mean for sure about people being "incapable" of changing. But the incapability is often only a choice in how one decides to see the world which may or may not be how it "really" is. Rarely is the limitation physical. Most often it is the ego that prevents people from considering alternatives which may seem alien or illogical to them because to accept such an alternative view could be perceived as being defeated or somehow weak or wrong and this leads to stubbornness. When the ego is forced aside though, the mind is freer to accept change and consider alternate views on reality.
The bolded part above is the only thing I take issue with in what you said here. People (or fleas in this case) are not incapable. They often (not always) only think, believe, or perceive themselves to be incapable. And since perception is reality in as far as an individual is concerned, it follows that the reality the person suffering from "victim mentality" sees is colored by what he/she believes to be the true nature of the world around them. The "non-boxed" flea can plainly see that there is no longer any physical barrier over the other flea . . .as can everybody else. . .except for the mentally limited flea who used to be in the box. You said yourself you are a perfect example of how a person can break the mental chains that bind them and change their reality by changing their perception of the world. The light bulb of which you speak is called "personal responsibility." Who knows what can trigger it in some people? I think only a strong enough desire to change a situation will force it on. Perhaps it is the innate resistance to the natural forces of change that seems so ingrained in most of our psyches that causes us to behave in this seemingly self-defeating and contradictory way such that we would rather suffer and be bitter at the world than get up and start accepting other realities. . .realities in which somebody else is trying to help us if we will only listen and where not everybody is out to get us. And that's what I meant when I talked about people's willingness to step outside their established mental "comfort zone." The so-called "grumpy old man" is a prime example of this. He is like the flea who was put in the box. He likes things how they used to be and refuses to acknowledge changes or advances in the world around him. His mind is set and there's no changing it. His thought patterns are so old and established that changing them would be a feat of superhuman-like ability. So I see what you mean for sure about people being "incapable" of changing. But the incapability is often only a choice in how one decides to see the world which may or may not be how it "really" is. Rarely is the limitation physical. Most often it is the ego that prevents people from considering alternatives which may seem alien or illogical to them because to accept such an alternative view could be perceived as being defeated or somehow weak or wrong and this leads to stubbornness. When the ego is forced aside though, the mind is freer to accept change and consider alternate views on reality.
-------------------------
-Alex
===============
I am not quibbling about the generalities of your point of view, only a paradox it contains which should, in my opinion, be the focus:
You claim 'the light bulb is personal responsibility' and end with 'when the ego is forced aside'.
Can you please tell me how the ego is to force aside the ego? How does the ego commit what is suicide?
-------------------------
-Alex
===============
I am not quibbling about the generalities of your point of view, only a paradox it contains which should, in my opinion, be the focus:
You claim 'the light bulb is personal responsibility' and end with 'when the ego is forced aside'.
Can you please tell me how the ego is to force aside the ego? How does the ego commit what is suicide?
Unless you're some award winning world renowned shrink, you're assurances really don't mean sh1t. And, even if you were, since you have no clue who I am, you'd again be wrong.
You either are having delusions of grandeur here, and/or have some serious issues of your own. I'll leave it up to you to decide...
Chuck
How many awards do you get when you know and tell people they hate themselves? Surely you are the one with delusions, no? The way you know what you feel is to feel it. Knowledge can't be given to those who don't deserve it or kept from those who do. You hate yourself and therefore think that fame and renowned are what establish credibility whereas the wise call themselves fools. Your world is upside down, so sorry.
Well, when you're a keyboard commando like yourself, telling people one thing while in the real world you have absolutely no clue, you won't be getting any awards...unless it's for Wannabe (Shrink) of the Year.
Unless "you" is the imaginary friend you talk to, then the answer is indeed, No. If you have to tell yourself that I'm delusional because I think I know myself when clearly you, having never met me and knowing nothing about me somehow know better, then go right ahead. In your own world, it must make you feel good. Here for the rest of us, it makes you a loon.
Did you throw this in there to make your BS above seem smart, or was it the sane part of your brain straining to come through? Both?
So what you're really saying here is you have no clue, you have no credentials, and you're a loon...got it. That's what I thought, but thanks for confirming it.
I can see how you'd think that. See, here in reality, which is appears is totally opposite from where you are, things are 180 degrees off from where you're at.
Stay on the meds, stay on the therapy...those around you will thank you for it. :thumbsup:
Chuck
My, my, I don't know you hate yourself but you know all about my meds and my therapy. Your defensive reaction to the truth of what I say has driven you right off the deep end and makes you look an even bigger fool. It's comical to watch you put me down, desperately trying to make me feel as bad as you do. What kind of idiot tries to make somebody who knows about self hate feel bad? Don't answer. I already know.
But that sort of blows the meaning of will, does it not. I mean if I am participating in something I am not consciously aware of how can I say I will it? How then too can I call my personal responsibility defective since what I know as personal is conscious.
If you don't know I hate myself (which I don't, why would I), then why would you post:
1.) M: You have no idea how poor you really are. All that contempt and disdain for the broken are your feelings about your self.
2.) Hehe, you use funny language for somebody who isn't pissed. But then you don't know what you feel.
3.) I can assure you the ignorance is all your own.
4.) You hate yourself and therefore think that fame and renowned are what establish credibility whereas the wise call themselves fools.
5.) comical to watch you put me down, desperately trying to make me feel as bad as you do.
When you post this stuff with have no idea what you're talking about (meaning, you are not a shrink, and even if you were a shrink you're not mine), it makes you look like a wannabe smart dude.
I know about your therapy and meds because you are so off the wall loony in so many of your posts. It takes no rocket scientist to figure that out. If you're getting therapy, and are on the meds, then I think that's great. Stay on it, it can only help and not hurt.
First, my reaction isn't really defensive...I just chose in this case to call BS when I see/read it...and your posts are usually BS, as again in this thread they wax and wane into BS and non-BS parts. It's not simply just disagreeing about a principle, it's just that you make statements that you know nothing about. It'd be like me saying with certainty I know what the surface of Saturn is like...no one is going to accept it because I'm just making it up.
There's comedy in here alright...
Oh no, here you go again...
You're current or past self-hate is your problem, not mine. If you want me to stop making you feel bad, stop posting BS comments on stuff you know nothing about...I don't seriously care one way or the other, but it's sorta annoying in a thread that is interesting.What kind of idiot tries to make somebody who knows about self hate feel bad? Don't answer. I already know.
If you reigned in your shrink and loony comments in these threads Moonbeam, you'd actually be one of the more articulate posters here. Everytime you make one of the loon-o comments though, it just makes whatever else you say that much more hard to take seriously.
Chuck
c2: If you don't know I hate myself (which I don't, why would I), then why would you post:
Oops that was supposed to have a question mark.
My, my, I don't know you hate yourself but you know all about my meds and my therapy?
Meaning, I do know you hate yourself because I know it's a universal truth, but you, who claim I don't know anything about you seem to know I'm in therapy and on meds. Hehe! You are funny.
c2: I know about your therapy and meds because you are so off the wall loony in so many of your posts. It takes no rocket scientist to figure that out. If you're getting therapy, and are on the meds, then I think that's great. Stay on it, it can only help and not hurt.
M: If I'm getting therapy and if I'm on meds. But I thought you knew that. You're logical inconsistency is pretty profound.
c2: You're current or past self-hate is your problem, not mine. If you want me to stop making you feel bad, stop posting BS comments on stuff you know nothing about...I don't seriously care one way or the other, but it's sorta annoying in a thread that is interesting.
M: Hehe, You had to answer anyway and of course got it all wrong. You hate yourself, I told you, and now you're mad. Of course you were already mad at yourself and the inevitable result of that, of course is that you want me to feel the same thing. But I know what I feel. You don't have any news for me. You pretend you don't care but you stick to me like glue, hehe, and don't even seem to notice this thread is mine. Gosh, I'm ruining my own interesting thread.
c2: If you reigned in your shrink and loony comments in these threads Moonbeam, you'd actually be one of the more articulate posters here. Everytime you make one of the loon-o comments though, it just makes whatever else you say that much more hard to take seriously.
M: Actually, if there is anything interesting, articulate, exciting, or insightful about me, and I don't say that there is, but if there is than it can only be because of where I've been inside of me. I set out as a young boy to find the truth and that cost me all my lies and everything I believed was dear. And if you feel what you feel you'll find a big surprise.
Oops that was supposed to have a question mark.
My, my, I don't know you hate yourself but you know all about my meds and my therapy?
Meaning, I do know you hate yourself because I know it's a universal truth, but you, who claim I don't know anything about you seem to know I'm in therapy and on meds. Hehe! You are funny.
c2: I know about your therapy and meds because you are so off the wall loony in so many of your posts. It takes no rocket scientist to figure that out. If you're getting therapy, and are on the meds, then I think that's great. Stay on it, it can only help and not hurt.
M: If I'm getting therapy and if I'm on meds. But I thought you knew that. You're logical inconsistency is pretty profound.
c2: You're current or past self-hate is your problem, not mine. If you want me to stop making you feel bad, stop posting BS comments on stuff you know nothing about...I don't seriously care one way or the other, but it's sorta annoying in a thread that is interesting.
M: Hehe, You had to answer anyway and of course got it all wrong. You hate yourself, I told you, and now you're mad. Of course you were already mad at yourself and the inevitable result of that, of course is that you want me to feel the same thing. But I know what I feel. You don't have any news for me. You pretend you don't care but you stick to me like glue, hehe, and don't even seem to notice this thread is mine. Gosh, I'm ruining my own interesting thread.
c2: If you reigned in your shrink and loony comments in these threads Moonbeam, you'd actually be one of the more articulate posters here. Everytime you make one of the loon-o comments though, it just makes whatever else you say that much more hard to take seriously.
M: Actually, if there is anything interesting, articulate, exciting, or insightful about me, and I don't say that there is, but if there is than it can only be because of where I've been inside of me. I set out as a young boy to find the truth and that cost me all my lies and everything I believed was dear. And if you feel what you feel you'll find a big surprise.
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