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Please enlighten me on how you define victim mentality.

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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In another thread someone used the term victim mentality as though they knew what it meant and had some application to something I said, a contention I found preposterous, but one I won't argue here. But the result was to try to consider what is the term being used for. Clearly it has become some sort of catch phrase or assumed reality you can pull out of a hat and apply like slime to something you don't like. "Oh he's playing the victim card." :roll:

So what are your thoughts on what 'victim mentality' means? Does it mean anything at all or is it just a way to stereotype so one doesn't have to have any mentality at all. 'I put you in the 'victim mentality' box; I win.

One form of victim mentality is the Stockholm Syndrome where the victim sympathizes with the victimizer. What other kinds are there and how are they used politically?
 

superstition

Platinum Member
Feb 2, 2008
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the Stockholm Syndrome where the victim sympathizes with the victimizer
Like gay people who say "that's gay" in order to fit in and then defend it with weak rationalizations.

Victim mentality can be seen in the Blue Eyes Brown Eyes experiments (including those done with adults) as well as in the very famous campus fake prison study from the 70s. As for the victimizer mindset, check out the Milgram experiment.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,919
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Victim mentality means people who allow themselves to be victimized, likely repeatedly, without helping themselves by exploring and committing to the solutions provided to them.

Closing yourself off from hope and salvation to wallow in your grief. While at the same time expecting free handouts from the situation. Expecting others to pay your way?
 

Fern

Elite Member
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Sep 30, 2003
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To me, victim mentality is a crutched used by those not wishing to take responsibility for their actions resulting in negative consequences. "It's not my fault, I have been victimized by others....'"

Playing the victim card, refers to the above mentality but can be extended to those who claim victimhood in an effort to garner sympathy/empathy from others etc.

That's my understanding.

Fern
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,083
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Al sharpton on Peterson the newest almost Governor of New York:

He has two handicaps. "He's blind and He's Black"

Same asshole on Subprime loans "they did this to black people"



Katrina "Victoms" sueing to stay on cruise ships almost 2 years after Katrina. Or anyone who stayed in New Orleans after being told to leave then asked "where is the Federal government?" and then subsequently voted for Ray Naggin again.


Freeing child rapists because they have a "problem" and need to be "treated" then going out and raping more children. It's not my fault I am A B and C... I need treatment.

Lindsey Lohan, Britney Spears, Robert Downey Jr. all the victoms of something...

gosh need more?

add all that up and define it yourself but I know it when I see it. like Porn... :)



 

RedChief

Senior member
Dec 20, 2004
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Geredine Ferrero (sp?) had to bring out her victim status when defend comments about Obama. Shes both Female and Irish (remember who the Irish were discriminated against).

On the left, its becoming such so all that matters is how much of a victim you are...
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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So then I take it that people who have been victims of crimes and seek redress from the perps are practicing victim mentality, right?
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
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www.bing.com
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
So then I take it that people who have been victims of crimes and seek redress from the perps are practicing victim mentality, right?
if you want to paint with broad strokes, then yes.

But theres a big difference between justice, and the victim mentality in the negative sense you are speaking of

 

Fern

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 30, 2003
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
So then I take it that people who have been victims of crimes and seek redress from the perps are practicing victim mentality, right?
Not IMO. ^ It's not crutch or method of avoiding personal responsibility.

They are actual victims, not someone merely assuming a "mentality".

Fern
 

FoBoT

No Lifer
Apr 30, 2001
63,091
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fobot.com
i think it means a situation where a victum takes no responsibility for their part in whatever happened to them

they figure it was bound to happen to them because they are "XXX" or "YYY" or part of "ZZZ" group and everyone knows that "ZZZ" group members are victumized by society/whatever all the time through no fault of their own

it is when people are resigned to "their fate" instead of trying to get to a better place through their own actions


something like that
 

FoBoT

No Lifer
Apr 30, 2001
63,091
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fobot.com
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
So then I take it that people who have been victims of crimes and seek redress from the perps are practicing victim mentality, right?
if they only seek redress/compensation, and do nothing more to rectify the situation and get to a better place where the "crime" or problem is less likely to reoccur, then probably yes

if they are trying to fix the problem themself while at the same time seeking redress/compensation from the appropriate party, then generally i wouldn't put them in the 'victum mentalitiy' category
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,017
571
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The victim mentality is the idea that, if I can prove I was victimized, or at least make it seem so, I can claim that I am eligible for some form of recompense, and am exempt from any responsibility I shared in the crime against me.

A clear example of this was New Orleanians protesting the tearing down of the New Orleans housing projects, longtime havens of prostitution, drug dealing, and violent crime, in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. They acted as if there is some right to free housing. The entitlement mentality and victim mentality frequently go hand in hand.

The victim mentality is used as an excuse for inaction and laziness. These people can produce if they choose, but they choose to be lazy, and complain when they are paid the wages of laziness.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
So then I take it that people who have been victims of crimes and seek redress from the perps are practicing victim mentality, right?
Not IMO. ^ It's not crutch or method of avoiding personal responsibility.

They are actual victims, not someone merely assuming a "mentality".

Fern
Right, and it is you and your innate bigotry that will determine who is the real victim and who is not, exactly as I thought. It's the bigot's way of stereotyping those he's bigoted against.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Originally posted by: Atreus21
The victim mentality is the idea that, if I can prove I was victimized, or at least make it seem so, I can claim that I am eligible for some form of recompense, and am exempt from any responsibility I shared in the crime against me.

A clear example of this was New Orleanians protesting the tearing down of the New Orleans housing projects, longtime havens of prostitution, drug dealing, and violent crime, in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. They acted as if there is some right to free housing. The entitlement mentality and victim mentality frequently go hand in hand.

The victim mentality is used as an excuse for inaction and laziness. These people can produce if they choose, but they choose to be lazy, and complain when they are paid the wages of laziness.
A fine example of just such bigotry. We have another term called 'blaming the victim'. Here is some detail on that from Wiki:

[edit] History of the idea
The phrase "Blaming the victim" was coined by William Ryan in his classic book of the same title, as a critque of Daniel Patrick Moynihan's 1965 work The Negro Family: The Case for National Action, usually simply referred to as the Moynihan Report. Moynihan's book summarized his theories about ghetto formation and intergenerational poverty. Ryan's critique cast the Moynihan theories as subtle (and not so subtle) attemps to divert responsibility for poverty from social structural factors to the behaviors and cultural patterns of the poor [1].[1] The phrase was quickly adopted by advocates for crime victims, in particular rape victims accused of abetting their victimization, although this useage is conceptually distinct from the sociological critique developed by Ryan.


[edit] Just-world hypothesis
It has been proposed that one cause of victim-blaming is the "Just World Hypothesis". People who believe that the world has to be fair may find it hard or impossible to accept a situation in which a person is unfairly and badly hurt. This leads to a sense that, somehow, the victim must have surely done 'something' to deserve their fate. Another theory entails the need to protect one's own sense of invulnerability. This inspires people to believe that rape only happens to those who deserve or provoke the assault (Schneider et al., 1994). This is a way of feeling safer. If the potential victim avoids the behaviours of the past victims then they themselves will remain safe and feel less vulnerable. A global survey of attitudes toward sexual violence by the Global Forum for Health Research shows that victim-blaming concepts are at least partially accepted in many countries. In some countries, victim-blaming is more common, and women who have been raped are sometimes deemed to have behaved improperly. Often, these are countries where there is a significant social divide between the freedoms and status afforded to men and women.

This theory dates from very ancient times: the biblical Book of Job offers a canonical exploration of it.

Supporters of this view (once referred to as "Job's comforters") must perforce accept that to do otherwise would require them to give up their belief in a just world, and require them to believe in a world where bad things ? such as poverty, rape, starvation, and murder ? can happen to good people for no good reason. The cognitive dissonance in doing this becomes too great, and results in victim-blaming.

Though a form of attribution error, this incorrect attribution differs from the "Fundamental Attribution Error" principally in its focus. Both concepts however center around a tendency to ignore situational contributors in favor of supposed internal failings on part of the subject being judged. In the Just-World Hypothesis the subject's actions are not being scrutinized, but their situation; whereas those making the Fundamental Attribution Error tend to focus primarily on attributing actions to personal qualities and ignoring situational causes. Crimes or other events that create a victim give opportunity for both attribution errors- in blaming the victim for allowing themselves to be victimized crime as well as the inability to cope afterwards. Despite their often simultaneity though, they remain two distinct attribution errors.


[edit] Different legislatures
In the United States, rape is unique in that it is the only crime in which there are statutory protections designed in favor of the victim (known as "rape shield laws"). These were enacted in response to the common defense tactic of "putting the victim on trial". Typical rape shield laws prohibit cross-examination of the victim with respect to certain issues, such as his or her prior sexual history, or the manner in which he or she was dressed at the time of the rape. Most states and the federal rules, however, provide exceptions to the rape shield law where evidence of prior sexual history is used to provide an alternative explanation for physical evidence, where the defendant and the victim had a prior consensual sexual relationship, and where exclusion of evidence would violate the defendant's constitutional rights.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
You know, I think of "victim mentality" as different from "blaming the victim".

Let's use a rape scenario here: Young woman walks home alone from club at 3 AM wearing her club clothes, goes through a dark patch of walkway, and is raped.

"Blaming the victim" would be like saying, Well, she was dumb enough to walk home alone from the club, at 3 AM, wearing enticing clothes...why is she surprised?

Even though it's completely true that she was careless and probably could have avoided being raped if common sense had been used, it's not really her fault she was raped. She should be able to walk anywhere, at anytime, wearing anything, and expect not to be raped.

"Victim mentality" would be this same woman in the same scenario sueing the town for the police not being there to catch the rapist beforehand, sueing the town because they didn't have lights every two feet, sueing the club for not personally asking her if they could call a cab for her, etc. Another example of "victim mentality" would be rape groups holding protests against the town for inaction when clearly it's not the town, it's one sick criminal and one careless woman.

Hope that was clear...these late night deployments are k1lling me...

Chuck
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,819
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Originally posted by: chucky2
You know, I think of "victim mentality" as different from "blaming the victim".

Let's use a rape scenario here: Young woman walks home alone from club at 3 AM wearing her club clothes, goes through a dark patch of walkway, and is raped.

"Blaming the victim" would be like saying, Well, she was dumb enough to walk home alone from the club, at 3 AM, wearing enticing clothes...why is she surprised?

Even though it's completely true that she was careless and probably could have avoided being raped if common sense had been used, it's not really her fault she was raped. She should be able to walk anywhere, at anytime, wearing anything, and expect not to be raped.

"Victim mentality" would be this same woman in the same scenario sueing the town for the police not being there to catch the rapist beforehand, sueing the town because they didn't have lights every two feet, sueing the club for not personally asking her if they could call a cab for her, etc. Another example of "victim mentality" would be rape groups holding protests against the town for inaction when clearly it's not the town, it's one sick criminal and one careless woman.

Hope that was clear...these late night deployments are k1lling me...

Chuck
My point was, not that victim mentality and blaming the victim are the same thing, but that the notion of victim mentality, its evocation as a put down of victims exists as a result of the impulse to blame the victim. They are the product of the same rationalization, a rejection of personal responsibility, a refusal to look at the self. Victimization, victim mentality, and blaming the victim all arise out of the simple single phenomenon, the refusal to recognize our own self hate. Attacking others, attacking those who attack, attacking those attacked, it's all the same thing, a need to keep the blame out there.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
So then I take it that people who have been victims of crimes and seek redress from the perps are practicing victim mentality, right?
Not necessarily. Telling everyone of xyz that they are a victim because of xyz is perpetuating the victim mentality. What if a member or xyz doesn't think they are a victim? What if the "offense" is something percieved and not quantitative? Hmm...

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,819
3,625
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Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
So then I take it that people who have been victims of crimes and seek redress from the perps are practicing victim mentality, right?
Not necessarily. Telling everyone of xyz that they are a victim because of xyz is perpetuating the victim mentality. What if a member or xyz doesn't think they are a victim? What if the "offense" is something percieved and not quantitative? Hmm...
You mean like the onerous burden of suffering you experience in your perceived world phony victims?
 

superstition

Platinum Member
Feb 2, 2008
2,219
216
101
Has anyone read about the Blue Eyes Brown Eyes studies or, ideally, seen the video? The experiment when done with adults is particularly telling. Also, again I suggest referring to the college prison simulation from the 70s and the Milgram experiment.
 

Corbett

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2005
3,074
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Originally posted by: FoBoT
i think it means a situation where a victum takes no responsibility for their part in whatever happened to them
BINGO!

And that explains exactly what I meant when I said it in the thread about Detroit's Mayor.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,169
3,214
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It is simply this: Applying a Factual Wrong, as the direct cause of an unrelated or indirect other Wrong. Then, expecting the Factual Wrong to dictate the eventual Righting of the other unrelated or indirect Wrongs. It also is used as an excuse for short-comings.



 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
So then I take it that people who have been victims of crimes and seek redress from the perps are practicing victim mentality, right?
Not necessarily. Telling everyone of xyz that they are a victim because of xyz is perpetuating the victim mentality. What if a member or xyz doesn't think they are a victim? What if the "offense" is something percieved and not quantitative? Hmm...
You mean like the onerous burden of suffering you experience in your perceived world phony victims?
eh? english much? victim card cut your tongue? :p
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: chucky2
You know, I think of "victim mentality" as different from "blaming the victim".

Let's use a rape scenario here: Young woman walks home alone from club at 3 AM wearing her club clothes, goes through a dark patch of walkway, and is raped.

"Blaming the victim" would be like saying, Well, she was dumb enough to walk home alone from the club, at 3 AM, wearing enticing clothes...why is she surprised?

Even though it's completely true that she was careless and probably could have avoided being raped if common sense had been used, it's not really her fault she was raped. She should be able to walk anywhere, at anytime, wearing anything, and expect not to be raped.

"Victim mentality" would be this same woman in the same scenario sueing the town for the police not being there to catch the rapist beforehand, sueing the town because they didn't have lights every two feet, sueing the club for not personally asking her if they could call a cab for her, etc. Another example of "victim mentality" would be rape groups holding protests against the town for inaction when clearly it's not the town, it's one sick criminal and one careless woman.

Hope that was clear...these late night deployments are k1lling me...

Chuck
My point was, not that victim mentality and blaming the victim are the same thing, but that the notion of victim mentality, its evocation as a put down of victims exists as a result of the impulse to blame the victim.
I really don't see it that way at all. While I might say that the woman in my example was F'ing stupid for doing what she did, I certainly wouldn't take objection to her wanting the man in question to face justice. I wouldn't take objection to her seeking help to deal with her trauma. Neither of those things would be "victim mentality", they would be proper and just. Despite her carelessness, she should never expect to be raped, so while in my example she basically stacked the deck against herself as much as possible, that still doesn't really matter. The guilt and wrongness lays with the man, not her.

They are the product of the same rationalization, a rejection of personal responsibility, a refusal to look at the self.
Would you be talking about her or us, I'm not sure here?

Victimization, victim mentality, and blaming the victim all arise out of the simple single phenomenon, the refusal to recognize our own self hate. Attacking others, attacking those who attack, attacking those attacked, it's all the same thing, a need to keep the blame out there.
I don't agree much (but to some extents I do) this at all. I don't have self hate. I have things I'd like to change about myself, but what is your constant fixation on everyone having self hate? If some whiny woman is running around screaming that she was raped and sueing everyone in sight, that's not someone who's handling her trauma correctly, that's someone capitalizing on her prior misfortune. I don't need to have self hate to call BS on her, since her doing something like that is BS in and of itself.

I don't need to have self hate to tell someone who's advocating expensive handouts to the same people who were in the same/largely the same circumstances as me...yet I made it and they're poor b@stards because they were slackers and didn't take applying themselves seriously. That's not self hate...that's telling some bleeding heart that I don't want my hard earned tax dollars to go to some lazy F'ers.

Chuck
 

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