Pirates Foiled by Deliberate Glitch in Batman: Arkham Asylum

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: TridenT

Originally posted by: mindcycle
Furthermore, does draconian DRM (install limits, online activation, required online accounts, etc..) hinder casual piracy? If you think about it logically you realize a simple disc check would accomplish the task of hindering casual piracy, so why the need for the extra measures..

I doubt even that. Casual piracy is this: You download the game off of The Pirate Bay or wherever, unrar it, mount the iso, install the game with the keygen/provided-key, game is installed, and you just copy and paste a crack into the install directory. That's all you ever have to do for almost all of these games that have online activation, install limits, etc.

True, I guess that could be considered casual nowadays. I was actually referring to piracy that's even more "casual" than that. Lending a game to a friend who then copies the disc, or someone who purchases a game and then tries to copy it and then return it. A simple disc check would stop that kind of piracy. But you are right. Most pirates nowadays can work rather easily with torrents and whatnot, so there is even less of a need for draconian DRM since it's going to be easily bypassed by most pirates while the legit customers are the ones who suffer.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: TheKub

Originally posted by: TridenT
I doubt even that. Casual piracy is this: You download the game off of The Pirate Bay ...

Not that Im debating this any more but I feel that that is wrong.

Casual piracy is you giving a game to a friend to install (no cd check so both can play whenever) or just simply hitting the copy button on your cd-burning software. Casual piracy = your mom can do it. Most moms dont know what the hell torrents are let alone cracks.

You know you can't stay away.

As pointed out in my previous post, I agree that casual piracy has traditionally been equated to copying a disc, not torrents or anything like that. But it could be argued that the definition of casual has changed and could now included file sharing and torrents since it's now a lot easier (and more available) than it was in the past.

 

[JoshGuru7]

Measures which can be taken cheaply to increase the cost of piracy for group 2 without negatively impacting group 1 are good for the product and good for the industry.

My concern is when companies decide it's worth harming customers in order to increase the cost of piracy for prospective customers. This is a complicated decision, but companies routinely come up with the wrong answer because they do not differentiate between groups 2 and 3. In other words, they look at piracy numbers and count them as lost sales when in reality the vast majority would not have been sales anyway.

I think the decision in this thread was so obviously the wrong decision that I am inclined to disbelieve it. Putting out a bugged leak copy cheapens the *perception* of the cost of piracy to users in group 2 because they see it readily available and thus may increasingly decide to download it instead of purchasing it. It doesn't matter that the actual cost of piracy increases due to game glitches because the users in group 2 just assume the game is buggy. As a result more people pirate the game initially, and less people who pirated the game go on to purchase or recommend it to a friend. It's yet another case of a developer or publisher thinking "THIS will show those pirates!!!" and then cutting off their nose to spite their face.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Not true. Draconian DRM in the form of online activation, install limits, etc.. exist to hinder the used market.

From a business perspective I find that very unlikely. Activision and EA, poster children for Draconian DRM, both have staggering success in the console market which has a used market far larger then the entire PC gaming market. They are not foolish, they can connect the dots. The used market may not be something they are terribly fond of, but the market with the most rapid increase in used game sales is the same market that has the most rapid increase in new game sales.

Furthermore, does draconian DRM (install limits, online activation, required online accounts, etc..) hinder casual piracy? If you think about it logically you realize a simple disc check would accomplish the task of hindering casual piracy, so why the need for the extra measures..

A disk check is bypassed by copying the CD, install limits, online activation and required online accounts can all make this considerably more difficult(for the users they are likely trying to stop, obviously not anyone on these forums that wanted to get around it).

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
From a business perspective I find that very unlikely. Activision and EA, poster children for Draconian DRM, both have staggering success in the console market which has a used market far larger then the entire PC gaming market. They are not foolish, they can connect the dots. The used market may not be something they are terribly fond of, but the market with the most rapid increase in used game sales is the same market that has the most rapid increase in new game sales.

It does make sense from a business standpoint because of the fact that they have seen dwindling numbers in the PC market, so by hindering used sales they hope to make up for that. It doesn't make sense to me but makes perfect sense to someone looking strictly at numbers.

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
A disk check is bypassed by copying the CD

Sorry but that's 100% false. Very few disc based copy protection schemes released in recent years can be bypassed by simply copying the disc. Included in most copy protection schemes are certain sectors on the disc that can't be duplicated by traditional CD-R's or DVD-R's, etc.. Thus, to play a burned copy you'd need emulation software to bypass checks to those sectors. Most casual pirates aren't going to know a thing about that, thus it's effective at stopping casual disc copiers and has been for years.

 

[Yukmouth]

You guys are crazy. I know people who have not purchased an operating system in years and you guys actually think pirates will stop these companies from getting paid??? Flat out stupid logic, most pirated software sucks and anyone who puts it to use knows this.

The demand for PC games is low because you can get more out of a console than any other platform at almost a fourth of the cost of a high quality PC. Who wants to pay for a top teir PC when you can get something that will last you years longer at a fourth of the cost and be LESS complicated for the end user in the long run!?!?!?!

Microsoft dosen't say a word and their software is more prone to piracy than any pc game title that will *ever* hit the market. Microsoft was smart enough to realize you need to control the platform in order to control the software. Take a hint, or continue to cry. PC gaming is no longer unique. Ports of console games are becoming the norm because developers know that's where the money is, console gaming. The PC is becoming more and more like an alternate option with no substantial benifit and they're fully aware of this.

These compaine's have been blaming poor demand, duping idiots into thinking piracy is really THAT much of a problem.

Stop blaming pirates for sh*t people don't want to buy.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: Yukmouth
Stop blaming pirates for sh*t people don't want to buy.

:thumbsup:

 

[BenSkywalker]

It does make sense from a business standpoint because of the fact that they have seen dwindling numbers in the PC market, so by hindering used sales they hope to make up for that. It doesn't make sense to me but makes perfect sense to someone looking strictly at numbers.

It still makes absolutely no sense, a used game cannot be sold unless it has already been sold. The used game market is 100% reliant on the new game market. Publishers are very well aware of this.

Included in most copy protection schemes are certain sectors on the disc that can't be duplicated by traditional CD-R's or DVD-R's, etc.. Thus, to play a burned copy you'd need emulation software to bypass checks to those sectors. Most casual pirates aren't going to know a thing about that, thus it's effective at stopping casual disc copiers and has been for years.

It takes about what, a minute to find a fix for that? It may stop the simplest of pirates, but not much else.

Microsoft dosen't say a word and their software is more prone to piracy than any pc game title that will *ever* hit the market.

A great deal of the laws we have today concerning software piracy are in place because of actions Gates took many years ago(go ahead and look it up ). MS has done more to combat piracy then all the game publishers combined.

Stop blaming pirates for sh*t people don't want to buy.

People are buying it in huge quantities, that is the point. People not only want to buy it, they are buying it in significantly larger numbers then they were ten years ago. Just not for one platform, the platform where piracy runs rampant. I have all the gaming platforms in my house, if it doesn't come out for the PC it doesn't mean I won't get to play it, but I sure as hell don't want to see PC gaming die but that is currently the way it is trending(not that that will happen, hopefully we hit bottom at some point). As of right now the only viable PC business is MMOs for most publishers, that is a damn shame.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
It still makes absolutely no sense, a used game cannot be sold unless it has already been sold. The used game market is 100% reliant on the new game market. Publishers are very well aware of this.

Publishers get no money from the sale of used games while they do see money from sales of new games. If there is no used market then the only option is to buy new and they'll see every penny of that. Why do you think publishers constantly complain about gamestop and the like? Implementing technology to hinder used sales would be much harder on consoles then it is on PC's (given the how the current generation of consoles work). I would imagine that in the future they'll attempt to build in more road blocks to hinder used sales in the console realm, but for now it's not feasible.

Besides of course, downloadable content, which already hinders resale by tying the content to your account. Same goes for downloadable games. So it actually exists on consoles already, it's just not wide spread yet because of the retail game market, which is how most console games are still distributed. I'm sure there are plans to make everything rely on digital downloads at some point (possibly in the next generation) meaning the used market goes away completely.

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
It takes about what, a minute to find a fix for that? It may stop the simplest of pirates, but not much else.

You were trying to argue that a disc check can be bypassed by copying the disc, which is false. I'm not sure why you are trying to defend that statement with something completely different.

For the computer savvy amongst us, sure, one could find a crack rather easily. But the average Sims player who tries to copy the game for a friend will be stopped by a simple disc check since they won't know where to begin to look for a crack or an emulation program. Thus the simple disc check DRM is effective for casual piracy while those more savvy will simply bypass the draconian DRM with a crack or emulation program..

So why again do you think that draconian DRM is actually in place because of pirates and not to hinder the used market? If publishers aren't foolish and connect the dots like you claim, wouldn't they have already realized that draconian DRM doesn't work and save themselves some money by not using it?

 

[miniMUNCH]

Bottom line in my opinion... software piracy is theft and is unethical.

Folks who pirate games are abusing the system and relying on others to keep the gaming industry afloat with their money... if everyone pirated and no paid for the game there would be no PC game industry.

 

[reallyscrued]

After reading all of BenSkyWalker's posts, I really hope the PC gaming industry crashes and burns and puts old dinosaurs with thought processes like his in their place.

Then maybe it could bounce back after a year or two, or five, with some fucking quality titles that people would actually go out and buy. It's happened before, piracy was never the problem, it was the lack of interesting games.

People are not immoral, and if they see value in digital entertainment, they will purchase it; but no one is going to purchase games for a high priced specialty platform that are generic enough to be put on consoles.

Piracy is easier than its ever been (seriously, torrent sites have instructions for fuck's sake, you guys seem to think anyone who doesn't visit AT forums are complete imbeciles who can't use Google. That may be true for some of them, but if they can work a torrent, they can figure out how to work a crack.) so the whole DRM thing is really getting old. It hasn't stopped anyone from pirating a game who never had any interest in purchasing it.

Perhaps if they didn't put so much time and effort into DRM (which really never works) they could focus on making a game on the PC fun or special to play? Remember when people had N64s and played Goldeneye 007 with split screen mutliplayer, you were fragging people in Unreal Tournament over an internet connection?

PC Gaming isn't special anymore.

Pirates foiled by deliberate glitch in B:AA? OM NOES!! REALLY? Too bad it was patched to play just like the retail version a day after it was discovered... foiled indeed.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Publishers get no money from the sale of used games

They very often get money from used games being traded in, so while what you say is true on the surface, it isn't the entire picture. Very often used games are traded in for credit towards new games, shut down the used game market, less revenue from that stream. Try and trade in games at GS and see what they will give you for cash, it's a decent amount less then credit.

You were trying to argue that a disc check can be bypassed by copying the disc, which is false.

No, it is accurate- it isn't 100% effective which I never claimed it was. For the overwhelming majority of games ever released that use disk checks, a simple copy of the CD will work.

So why again do you think that draconian DRM is actually in place because of pirates and not to hinder the used market?

There was never a major PC used game market- ever. It has never been more then a blip on a spreadsheet. Piracy OTOH, has been producing massive numbers and has exceeded retail shipments of every game I have seen tracked for over a year now(by Torrent numbers).

If publishers aren't foolish and connect the dots like you claim, wouldn't they have already realized that draconian DRM doesn't work and save themselves some money by not using it?

Check out the piracy scene on the PS3. What publishers can see today is that their DRM isn't effective enough, but that there are DRM schemes that can take years to crack. That isn't hypothetical, we have already seen it.

Then maybe it could bounce back after a year or two, or five, with some fucking quality titles that people would actually go out and buy.

People are buying the games just fine, in numbers far greater then they were ten years ago.

People are not immoral

If that were true there would be no murder, no rape, and no pirates.

 

[skace]

I wish people who warez would just post honest responses instead of bullshit ones like "If games were just higher quality I swear I'd buy them". Just fucking admit it, warezing is easy and you are getting something for free, until that changes most of you will never stop stealing.

There is a large group of the gaming community who can't actually afford their own hobby. And I feel for them, I really do, because I don't have a good answer to that and I don't think gaming benefits from elitist exclusivity based on price.

 

[Modelworks]

There was once a used pc games market, although not many here were probably using pc at the time to remember it. Back when there were no cd burners in pc and games were sold on CD there was a used games market. The majority of people had dial up access so downloading games was out. People traded and sold games on usenet groups, yard sales and online sites. That was also the time that we saw a lot of the great pc games appear. Games like Total Annihilation, Descent, Warcraft, Command and Conquer, Red Alert, Deus Ex, Thief, etc
Maybe just a coincidence, maybe not.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

Publishers get no money from the sale of used games

They very often get money from used games being traded in, so while what you say is true on the surface, it isn't the entire picture. Very often used games are traded in for credit towards new games, shut down the used game market, less revenue from that stream. Try and trade in games at GS and see what they will give you for cash, it's a decent amount less then credit.

That's a gamestop policy and has nothing to do with game publishing companies. If a gamer gets credit towards a new game that's great, but publishers still don't see any money directly from used game sales. That's what they want.

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
No, it is accurate- it isn't 100% effective which I never claimed it was. For the overwhelming majority of games ever released that use disk checks, a simple copy of the CD will work.

Name me one major PC game (that uses disc check copy protection) that's been released within the last five years where this is true.

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
Check out the piracy scene on the PS3. What publishers can see today is that their DRM isn't effective enough, but that there are DRM schemes that can take years to crack. That isn't hypothetical, we have already seen it.

So the solution in your mind is to develop more and more draconian DRM until something finally works? All the while inconveniencing legitimate paying customers in an already shirking market.. That explains a lot about your stance.

 

[BassBomb]

Originally posted by: skace
I wish people who warez would just post honest responses instead of bullshit ones like "If games were just higher quality I swear I'd buy them". Just fucking admit it, warezing is easy and you are getting something for free, until that changes most of you will never stop stealing.

There is a large group of the gaming community who can't actually afford their own hobby. And I feel for them, I really do, because I don't have a good answer to that and I don't think gaming benefits from elitist exclusivity based on price.

I spend my money on the good games and don't for the others (that are yarrr'd)
If the others were better they would EASILY get my money. In fact I have gone out and bought games after yarr because they impressed me a great deal.

 

[reallyscrued]

Originally posted by: skace
I wish people who warez would just post honest responses instead of bullshit ones like "If games were just higher quality I swear I'd buy them". Just fucking admit it, warezing is easy and you are getting something for free, until that changes most of you will never stop stealing.

There is a large group of the gaming community who can't actually afford their own hobby. And I feel for them, I really do, because I don't have a good answer to that and I don't think gaming benefits from elitist exclusivity based on price.

Crashes and burns.

I hope it all crashes and burns.

 

[BenSkywalker]

There was once a used pc games market,

You would honestly call it a market? You could argue that there still is as you can buy used games if you go to the right spot, but it certainly isn't anything resembling the other platforms multi billion dollar industry in used titles.

That's a gamestop policy and has nothing to do with game publishing companies. If a gamer gets credit towards a new game that's great, but publishers still don't see any money directly from used game sales. That's what they want.

They want money. They don't sit around having board meetings about what types of money they don't want

Name me one major PC game (that uses disc check copy protection) that's been released within the last five years where this is true.

How many games released in the last five years have used CD check and been released on CD? None spring to mind for me.

So the solution in your mind is to develop more and more draconian DRM until something finally works?

Not in any way whatsoever. The notion that you can't make copy protection the pirates won't quickly brake is simply BS. There has been at least one anti piracy approach that stood for years and worked for over 100 million shipped games- furthermore it isn't intrusive to the consumer at all. It can be done, PC publishers aren't going to do it by themselves, but it without a doubt can be done.

There is a large group of the gaming community who can't actually afford their own hobby. And I feel for them, I really do, because I don't have a good answer to that

I do- tell the pathetic leeches to get a fvcking job

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
They want money. They don't sit around having board meetings about what types of money they don't want

Exactly. So in their quest for more money off viedo game sales wouldn't you agree that controlling the used market would give them a better degree of control over that money? That's the whole point i'm trying to make. Publishers want to somehow control the used market so they can make more money, and since they can't do that by traditional means they'll attempt to simply get rid of it so you're only option is buying new.

Makes perfect sense to me. I'm not sure why you'd attempt to argue that they don't want to hinder the used market when there are articles upon articles of publishers bitching about used games sales and how they don't see any money off those sales.

http://playstationlifestyle.ne...ntal-effect-on-gaming/

http://www.endsights.com/2009/...-on-used-games-market/

http://civilizedgamers.com/blo...ogame-resale-conundrum

http://gamerlimit.com/2009/07/...l-the-used-game-issue/

http://www.xboxist.com/xbox-36...he-industry-010019.php

Name me one major PC game (that uses disc check copy protection) that's been released within the last five years where this is true.

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
How many games released in the last five years have used CD check and been released on CD? None spring to mind for me.

Who said anything about CD's? If you're trying to make an argument based on semantics then you fail. I clearly mention "disc check" in every post i've made thus far.

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
Not in any way whatsoever. The notion that you can't make copy protection the pirates won't quickly brake is simply BS. There has been at least one anti piracy approach that stood for years and worked for over 100 million shipped games

If you are referring to the PS3, that has nothing to do with PC DRM implementation. The PS3 is a closed system where DRM isn't intrusive because of the nature of the system. PC's are open systems and thus the only halfway effective DRM solution is extremely intrusive as has been shown with online activation and install limit type DRM solutions.

Face it man, non-intrusive PC DRM can't be done without totally inconveniencing legit buyers. If big publishers like EA moving back to disc check type DRM isn't enough to convince you then i'm not sure what will. You hold on to a very archaic thought process when it comes to combating video game piracy, that more DRM is better and someday they'll perfect a way to make it actually work. I just don't see that happening. They haven't done it yet and PC gaming has been around for what.. over 25 years or more at this point.

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: mindcycle
Exactly. So in their quest for more money off viedo game sales wouldn't you agree that controlling the used market would give them a better degree of control over that money? That's the whole point i'm trying to make. Publishers want to somehow control the used market so they can make more money, and since they can't do that by traditional means they'll attempt to simply get rid of it so you're only option is buying new.

Makes perfect sense to me. I'm not sure why you'd attempt to argue that they don't want to hinder the used market when there are articles upon articles of publishers bitching about used games sales and how they don't see any money off those sales.

I just await the day when they try this for console titles.

 

[ibex333]

Originally posted by: I4AT
No, the people who made Titan Quest pretty much went out of business because their game was a pos. I have the Gold edition and the game is simply buggy. Memory leaks galore, slowdowns after portaling too much due to their dumb decision to precache anything and everything, massive framerate dips in certain areas of the game, unfinishable quests, skill description and other display errors throughout the UI. The lead designer threw a whiney little bitch fit after Iron Lore got shut down blaming pirates this and reviewers that, but in reality their game really did need way more polish.

What the hell are you talking about? TQ was rock solid, and rock stable. Never any crashes, bugs or any problems at all. True the game was somewhat mediocre story and game play wise, but it was still pretty good.

 

[JoshGuru7]

Originally posted by: ibex333

Originally posted by: I4AT
No, the people who made Titan Quest pretty much went out of business because their game was a pos. I have the Gold edition and the game is simply buggy. Memory leaks galore, slowdowns after portaling too much due to their dumb decision to precache anything and everything, massive framerate dips in certain areas of the game, unfinishable quests, skill description and other display errors throughout the UI. The lead designer threw a whiney little bitch fit after Iron Lore got shut down blaming pirates this and reviewers that, but in reality their game really did need way more polish.

What the hell are you talking about? TQ was rock solid, and rock stable. Never any crashes, bugs or any problems at all. True the game was somewhat mediocre story and game play wise, but it was still pretty good.

I played it when it came first came out and it crashed on me probably every 30 minutes or so on newish hardware. Maybe you just won the driver lottery and were using the same exact ones that they tested it on?

 

[TheKub]

Originally posted by: mindcycle

Name me one major PC game (that uses disc check copy protection) that's been released within the last five years where this is true.

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
How many games released in the last five years have used CD check and been released on CD? None spring to mind for me.

Who said anything about CD's? If you're trying to make an argument based on semantics then you fail. I clearly mention "disc check" in every post i've made thus far.

Hence I stopped debating the topic. Ben is a fucking jedi master at side steping, mis-replying and outright lying. His points and conjectures are no more convincing than the counterpoints that have been posted, but my-oh-my how well he can weave the BS.

A career in politics he should look into.</BadYodaImpression>

 

[zerogear]

lul wut? TQ? I thought we were talking about Batman: AA?

 

[stag3]

make a quality game = more sales period.
there are always going to be people who refuse to buy any game because they can pirate it.
but i'm willing to bet if the game is that great, people WILL buy it.
i have bought every game by blizzard so far for example.