Physx - Are you interested in it? Have your say! VOTE!

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Physx - rate the importance if you care or not

  • Physx - what's that?

  • Physx - no thanks! (Unimpressed)

  • Physx - neutral

  • Physx - nice extra if price / performance lines up.

  • Physx - factors in the decision

  • Physx - must have! (Diehard fan)


Results are only viewable after voting.

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
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1)Wrong as there would be no need for more than one physics engine if it was wholly dependent on computational power and not implementation, SpinTires.

This comment makes no sense. What does having more than one physics engine have to do with computational power?

Every single game physics engine leverages the CPU for computation, but only ONE uses the GPU.

Gpu Phyx has not accurately simulated water yet in any game in my opinion.

I agree, it's not there yet, but it's coming.

In two generations, I'd say simulation such as what is seen in the above video will be in games. It won't be fully accurate of course, as the realistic simulation of fluids requires much greater computational power than what is available to consumers.

That said, as unrealistic and inaccurate as water simulation is on current and older GPUs, it still say something that it could even be simulated.

The water simulation in Cryostasis from 4 years ago couldn't even run on CPUs today..

4) Its obvious im talking about the coat scene with the arms and hands when he was not in the car, the difference in how the fence reacts when in the car :rolleyes:

You had me confused, because you linked the two scenarios.

My opinion physx at best in that game is giving an exaggerated reaction or different one, not a more realistic or accurate one.

Fair enough. It's easy to criticize something though, especially when you yourself haven't given any counter examples of game physics which you find to be more realistic or accurate than what PhysX is capable of.
 
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Final8ty

Golden Member
Jun 13, 2007
1,172
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This comment makes no sense. What does having more than one physics engine have to do with computational power?

Every single game physics engine leverages the CPU for computation, but only ONE uses the GPU.



I agree, it's not there yet, but it's coming.

In two generations, I'd say simulation such as what is seen in the above video will be in games. It won't be fully accurate of course, as the realistic simulation of fluids requires much greater computational power than what is available to consumers.

That said, as unrealistic and inaccurate as water simulation is on current and older GPUs, it still say something that it could even be simulated.

The water simulation in Cryostasis from 4 years ago couldn't even run on CPUs today..



You had me confused, because you linked the two scenarios.



Fair enough. It's easy to criticize something though, especially when you yourself haven't given any counter examples of game physics which you find to be more realistic or accurate than what PhysX is capable of.

No one has to compare one physics engine with another to have an opinion if it looks realistic or accurate when it is a comparison of real life.
Cryostasis water behaves like light oil in my opinion, even plenty of comments in the link say it does not behave like water.

And i have given examples including water on CPU and im talking games, whether people think they are being realistic or accurate is down to opinion.

The is nothing magical about computer physics that make them automatically realistic with computational power, they are still written by people and the behavioral characteristics are still down to how well they are written, art direction and human interpretation and implementation and the flaws that comes with all mentioned.

The fact that physics between different games running on the CPU vary in behavior proves my point.
Is Cryostasis water going to change from behaving like oil to more like water when ran on a Titan GPU, no it is not, proves my point.
 
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Final8ty

Golden Member
Jun 13, 2007
1,172
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The past month has been a fairly full one, with various hardware technologies being launched and high-end products making their debut. Havok is now adding its contribution to a certain niche.

The niche we are talking about is that of simulating real-life physics effects (water, wind, etc.) in virtual environments.

Havok has launched the latest edition of its Havok Physics engine, which makes the best of the past 5 years of internal research & development.

“This release of Havok Physics marks the third major iteration of our physics technology since the company was founded 15 years ago,” said Andrew Bond, vice president of technology for Havok.

“Although Havok Physics is widely recognized as the industry's leading physics solution, our R&D team is constantly striving to innovate and push the technology further.”

Physics effects in games are something that NVIDIA had a monopoly on for a while, through its PhysX technology.

Said company continues to push its expertise forward. Most recently, it ported the technology to Sony PlayStation 4 game consoles.

Advanced Micro Devices has been active in this field recently as well. Not long ago, it brought forth the TressFX technology, which accurately simulates hair.

Through its newest release, Havok is offering the third prong of virtual physics technology. Its system is good for next-generation home consoles, mobile devices and personal computers.

“The result is a new engine core built around fully continuous simulation that enables maximum physical fidelity with unprecedented performance speeds,” Bond said.

“Beta versions of the technology have been in the hands of a number of leading developers for some time and we have seen dramatic performance gains with simulations running twice as fast or more, and using up to 10 times less memory. Additionally the new core's performance is extremely predictable, eliminating performance spikes. We are genuinely excited to see how game designers will harness the additional power that we are offering with this release.”
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Havok-Intros-New-Physics-Engine-for-Games-336695.shtml
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
136

Haha, if you expect me to believe a consumer level CPU could simulate a body of water as large as a river, you have another thing coming. :p

That's clearly a canned animation of some sort. It probably has some physics algorithms built in I do not doubt, but there is no way the entire river is being simulated.

Kinda like Battlefield and large explosions.

The is nothing magical about computer physics that make them automatically realistic with computational power, they are still written by people and the behavioral characteristics are still down to how well they are written, art direction and human interpretation and implementation and the flaws that comes with all mentioned.

The greater your computational power, the greater the amount and complexity of the calculations your computer can process. This is no different from 3D rendering.

No consumer level GPU is going to render realistic Avatar like graphics by itself. That's why you have rendering farms which use thousands of CPUs and GPUs to do that work in real time.

Similarly, you're not going to see a nuclear explosion being simulated by a 3930K processor no matter how well written the physics program is. For that, you need a super computer.

The fact that physics between different games running on the CPU vary in behavior proves my point

It doesn't prove your point. The only point it proves is that programmers have to make concessions in quality and realism due to lack of available computational power.

The quality and level of optimization of the code is important I agree, but the main bottleneck is always going to be processing power.
 

Final8ty

Golden Member
Jun 13, 2007
1,172
13
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1)Haha, if you expect me to believe a consumer level CPU could simulate a body of water as large as a river, you have another thing coming. :p

That's clearly a canned animation of some sort. It probably has some physics algorithms built in I do not doubt, but there is no way the entire river is being simulated.

Kinda like Battlefield and large explosions.



The greater your computational power, the greater the amount and complexity of the calculations your computer can process. This is no different from 3D rendering.

No consumer level GPU is going to render realistic Avatar like graphics by itself. That's why you have rendering farms which use thousands of CPUs and GPUs to do that work in real time.

2)Similarly, you're not going to see a nuclear explosion being simulated by a 3930K processor no matter how well written the physics program is. For that, you need a super computer.



It doesn't prove your point. The only point it proves is that programmers have to make concessions in quality and realism due to lack of available computational power.

The quality and level of optimization of the code is important I agree, but the main bottleneck is always going to be processing power.

1) What you believe and your assumptions are not the point the only point that matters is the results of whats going on under the hood and hence the results of the POLL thus far and not whats going under the hood as being more important when playing games.

2) A CPU is no less accurate at physics than a GPU doing it , one is simply faster at doing it, the accuracy is down to the algorithm and if that algorithm is not accurate then the results will not be, no matter the computational power of the hardware, we see plenty of physics mistakes and glitches all the time.

And lastly you went and found a different video and brought up the tree clipping and not the flaws of the water and that is also an important point because nothing like that water has been seen before in games and the flaws are not noticed on first impressions, (so it looks so real at first) and only the wow factor is noticed and the same goes for physx as well, but it very common to see clipping of things like trees hence you noticed that.
The amount of times that we see things in games and think wow that looks so goods and realistic and years later seeing the games dont seem no ware near as looking so goods and realistic as we remembered, but some games do hold up well overtime.

You may believe that GPU Physx is accurate at this present day in games but i and most of the POLL do not, that does not mean that they dont look cool, but to me most of them dont, just more of a distraction because they are overdone for the sake of being different and that again is down to implementation, the overdone results were down to implementation, not computational power, good physics is down to more than just computational power. [sarcasm] Developer: its not our fault everything is down to computational power, we have absolutely no control over the results, how they look, how they behave and how much is on screen, so when you put that game on a new more powerful rig, hell knows whats going to happen[/sarcasm]

There are plenty of other things that get overdone as well like DOF,BLOOM,HDR, motion blur, HBAO being over the top in some games and a whole host of other things because we have the computational power for them, that does not automatically make them realistic or accurate, they are simply cool at times to people.

More computational power only means the potential to be more realistic and accurate in real time at higher fps, its does not guarantee in any way that the results will be, that is down to the developers.

I may fix any more typos later, but i am lazy that way..sorry :)
 
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BoFox

Senior member
May 10, 2008
689
0
0
Real physics can be done on either the CPU or the GPU, but since the GPU has far greater computational resources, physics will always be faster and more accurate on the GPU.

In this case, real means requiring or utilizing physics calculations for physics effects.

CPU and GPU PhysX has merged, so this argument is no longer relevant.
No longer relevant? You're saying that CPU cannot do real physics, but GPU can, but then now you say that both has merged so that it's no longer relevant... because you think the CPU can do it as well (with a WELL-optimized algorithm that uses slimmed-down resources while looking very nice as well)?

I once saw my dad accidentally walk through a glass door at a 4th of July barbecue. The glass door shattered into hundreds of visible pieces, and likely tens of thousands of smaller pieces that were barely visible, or completely invisible to the naked eye.

Saying that a "realistic" simulation of a window breaking usually breaks into a few large pieces is ridiculous, because this depends on many factors such as the size and speed of the object, the impact location, the thickness of the glass....and so many other things.
True, but to see it ALWAYS shatter into ungodly amounts of microscopic shards reminds me of cheesy action movies where the window has several micro explosions lined around the edges, timed right when the impact is supposed to take place.

Well there is no actual PhysX hair simulation (at least not GPU accelerated) yet. Witcher 3 will supposedly have hair simulation though.
Yeah, that's the point - so far, games have had only a couple objects taking up mind-boggling amounts of GPU resources for PhysX calculations, rather than taking a more balanced approach of having more potential kinetic objects handled by PhysX. Too extravagant, and too "few" ever since........

I'm all for open standards, but AMD lacks the resources and the commitment (at least from what I've seen) necessary to bring Bullet physics up to par with PhysX, which has many years head start.

I mean, AMD is just now tackling the issues with Crossfire, and that's been going on for years..
The same could be said for Nvidia - Nvidia lacks the resources and the commitment (at least from what I've seen) necessary to bring PhysX up to par with how much a well-rounded game has impressed me with game-play dependent and overall environment physics (rather that just a couple of tacked-on resource-consuming objects).

Nvidia also had some microstuttering issues that have been going on for years.. (although they have been handling multi-GPU better in that regard - especially in the past couple years).

Anyhow, good debate, bro! Some people really enjoy debate like a fun deathmatch fest, so I was playing along with you for the sake of good ol' debate!

Edit-
Even today, we're still seeing impressive physics done on the CPU as well. The original Crysis needed the 3rd core for physics. Ghostbuster's Infernal Velocity engine used up all 4 cores for impressive physics. Yet, many years later - today - there are barely any games that use more than 4 threads, let alone 8 threads for extra physics. It's just to balance your argument that all of the CPU resources have been used up - which is really not true at all for the vast majority of games out there (even newer games). It's quite on the contrary, actually. The developer just feels much more comfortable making engine-based game-play dependent physics running off the CPU for all kinds of different objects in the game, be it environmental fog, explosions, or whatever, yet in an average new game, about half of all 8 threads are left idling (while more than 98% of the GPU is almost always used up as long as vsync is disabled or triple buffering is enabled-which is the case for most DX10+ games).
 
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3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
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All of this coulda, woulda, shoulda is irrelevant. It is what it is. With what PhysX offers gaming (right now) is it of any real relevance? I say not really. A handful, or less (often much less) games a year that require high end hardware to implement at playable FPS is not particularly important in the overall scheme of things.
 

Sable

Golden Member
Jan 7, 2006
1,130
105
106
Dunno if this has been posted but I just saw this Physx demo from the new batman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1-ZK1tzDsc#t=94

I don't get it. They show a scene where the difference is with physx on you have fog. Without physx, no fog.

But then in a later no physx scene they have fog. And with the physx on they have... a bit more fog and a couple of particles.

So just have the damn fog on in the other scene wtf?!
 

sontin

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2011
3,273
149
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It's a port of a Xbox360 game. There will be fog in the game. But with GPU-PhysX you have a fluid simulation which gets effected by the environment.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,211
50
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Currently 25 PC titles support GPU accelerated PhsyX.

I believe the best source for PhysX on the net.
http://physxinfo.com/

Click the
info_zps3b2f75ab.png
next to each title for side by side PhysX ON/OFF videos.

Currently 8 additional titles in development:
Batman: Arkham Origins
Call of Duty: Ghosts
Everquest Next
Mercenary Ops
Passion Leads Army
QQ Dance 2
Warframe
Witcher 3: The Wild Hunt
 

seitur

Senior member
Jul 12, 2013
383
1
81
I don't care much. Technology restricted to one brand of hardware and in more complex effects with huge performance hit.

Nah. I won't take physics systems into account when deciding my purcharse until it's open standard, used in more games, is utilised by all major GPU players and they compete on clear performance and performance / $ basis.
 

f1sherman

Platinum Member
Apr 5, 2011
2,243
1
0
Dunno if this has been posted but I just saw this Physx demo from the new batman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1-ZK1tzDsc#t=94

I don't get it. They show a scene where the difference is with physx on you have fog. Without physx, no fog.

But then in a later no physx scene they have fog. And with the physx on they have... a bit more fog and a couple of particles.

So just have the damn fog on in the other scene wtf?!

Effects entirely missing on non-CUDA hardware is just cheap shot from NV. It's really a VERY bad practice.
Proper way to do it... The difference should be interactive/physically realistic fog vs plain one on AMD hw.

But this goes on to show that majority of gamers will notice an effect only if you shove it through their eyeballs.

Then again nowadays(Borderlands 2, Metro??) you can have most of PhysX effects forced on x86, albeit with all perf. nuisances.
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
136
Dunno if this has been posted but I just saw this Physx demo from the new batman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1-ZK1tzDsc#t=94

I don't get it. They show a scene where the difference is with physx on you have fog. Without physx, no fog.

But then in a later no physx scene they have fog. And with the physx on they have... a bit more fog and a couple of particles.

So just have the damn fog on in the other scene wtf?!

That's not fog dude, it's snow :p With PhysX turned on, you get extra snow particles which are interactive with the environment.
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
136
Effects entirely missing on non-CUDA hardware is just cheap shot from NV. It's really a VERY bad practice.
Proper way to do it... The difference should be interactive/physically realistic fog vs plain one on AMD hw.

You can't blame NVidia for that though, because if there's no fog present on AMD hardware, it's because it wasn't part of the original development format.

Every difference with PhysX turned on is something that was added after development by the NVidia PhysX content guys.
 

MrK6

Diamond Member
Aug 9, 2004
4,458
4
81
Effects entirely missing on non-CUDA hardware is just cheap shot from NV. It's really a VERY bad practice.
Proper way to do it... The difference should be interactive/physically realistic fog vs plain one on AMD hw.
Ironically, the biggest argument for the insignificance of physx comes from nvidia themselves: if the only way you can get people to notice your product is by removing any competing rendering methods, it isn't that great of a product.
 

Zanovar

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2011
3,446
232
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Ironically, the biggest argument for the insignificance of physx comes from nvidia themselves: if the only way you can get people to notice your product is by removing any competing rendering methods, it isn't that great of a product.

Proof of this? ist been asked many times im still waiting...
 

wand3r3r

Diamond Member
May 16, 2008
3,180
0
0
You can't blame NVidia for that though, because if there's no fog present on AMD hardware, it's because it wasn't part of the original development format.

Every difference with PhysX turned on is something that was added after development by the NVidia PhysX content guys.

Proof of this or are you using an opinion and guesses as facts?

Feel free to present your opinion but keep it clearly noted as your opinion, not trying to pass it off as fact.;)

Anyways, your point about the effects being added after I can believe because physx, in every form that I've seen, is merely tacked on top of the environment.
 

sontin

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2011
3,273
149
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Proof of this? ist been asked many times im still waiting...

You will not get an answer. It's viral marketing.

Funny fact: Alice has TressFX like hair and yet you need TressFX for the same kind of effect in Tomb Raider. I guess AMD took the "Alice" hair out of the game, too...