philly transit union workers go on strike...

[Red Dawn]

Employment is a 2 way street. You exchange your work for payment. Either party can end that arrangement if they are not pleased with it.

Yep and if they can find someone hungry enough to do the job cheaper they can replace you with no problem at all. Unless a person has a skill that's unique without the ability to organize or the threat of organizing the worker is at the mercy of the employer.

Without Unions there would be a lot more hungry workers out there that'd be willing to do the job cheaper because they'd be more desperate for work.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Yep and if they can find someone hungry enough to do the job cheaper they can replace you with no problem at all. Unless a person has a skill that's unique without the ability to organize or the threat of organizing the worker is at the mercy of the employer.

Without Unions there would be a lot more hungry workers out there that'd be willing to do the job cheaper because they'd be more desperate for work.

Wrong. No one is "at the mercy" of the other. No one is FORCED to work somewhere or for someone(except in states that allow unions to chose closed shops which FORCES people who don't want to be in the union - be in the union). Skilled or unskilled employment is entirely voluntary. Voluntary for the worker, and voluntary for the employer.

 

[Red Dawn]

Wrong. No one is "at the mercy" of the other. No one is FORCED to work somewhere or for someone(except in states that allow unions to chose closed shops which FORCES people who don't want to be in the union - be in the union). Skilled or unskilled employment is entirely voluntary. Voluntary for the worker, and voluntary for the employer.

Yeah and if you are hungry enough you'll voluntarily work for peanuts. I've seen it in construction where there is no union, they pay guys shit because there are no decent paying jobs. The sad thing is the cost of the homes are no cheaper than in other areas where most of the Contractors use Union.The difference is a bigger profit for the Contractors.

 

[glenn1]

Let the people of Philadelphia sort this out, it's their shithole. The less they involve the rest of us the better.

 

[JeepinEd]

Yep and if they can find someone hungry enough to do the job cheaper they can replace you with no problem at all. Unless a person has a skill that's unique without the ability to organize or the threat of organizing the worker is at the mercy of the employer.

Without Unions there would be a lot more hungry workers out there that'd be willing to do the job cheaper because they'd be more desperate for work.

So all the non union companies are paying their employees minimum wage right?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Yeah and if you are hungry enough you'll voluntarily work for peanuts. I've seen it in construction where there is no union, they pay guys shit because there are no decent paying jobs. The sad thing is the cost of the homes are no cheaper than in other areas where most of the Contractors use Union.The difference is a bigger profit for the Contractors.

And if there is demand people will jump to better jobs leaving their employer to fill positions. If there is demand wages will rise to attract the best workers. Unions distort the market by taking competition away and set artificial and often unsustainable wages.

 

[Red Dawn]

And if there is demand people will jump to better jobs leaving their employer to fill positions. If there is demand wages will rise to attract the best workers. Unions distort the market by taking competition away and set artificial and often unsustainable wages.

In a perfect world but we all know that it's not. Without the ability to organize the worker is at the mercy of the employer. Now that doesn't mean they have to as long as that threat is there.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

In a perfect world but we all know that it's not. Without the ability to organize the worker is at the mercy of the employer. Now that doesn't mean they have to as long as that threat is there.

ah the union programmed victim mentality shines through. I guess if you are weak and need someone else to do your bidding for you...well then by all means put your faith in a union instead of yourself.

 

[Red Dawn]

ah the union programmed victim mentality shines through. I guess if you are weak and need someone else to do your bidding for you...well then by all means put your faith in a union instead of yourself.

Ah your bitterness over being a loser in your personal life shines through as your insult is meaningless as I haven't been in a union for over 25 years. Now kindly unfuck yourself and realize that you haven't all the answers.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Ah your bitterness over being a loser in your personal life shines through as your insult is meaningless as I haven't been in a union for over 25 years. Now kindly unfuck yourself and realize that you haven't all the answers.

bitterness over my personal life? try again.

I didn't say I had all the answers but what I did do was point out the victim mentality the unions promote.

BTW, my personal life is just fine for the record so I'm not sure why you bring that up unless you are projecting...

 

[Double Trouble]

Employment is a 2 way street. You exchange your work for payment. Either party can end that arrangement if they are not pleased with it.

Exactly. I don't quite understand this mentality that the company can pay you slave wages and you just have to accept it. If you have talent, companies will pay for that talent. Companies compete against each other for talent. Now if you work at Wal-mart, then yes, you have very little leverage because your job is a simple commodity. If you're a professional, you are worth what the market will pay for your skills. Nothing more, nothing less.

Unions simply distort the cost of labor by making it more expensive, plus the interfere with the free market and create inefficiency by not allowing companies to get rid of crappy employees.

 

[Red Dawn]

bitterness over my personal life? try again.

I didn't say I had all the answers but what I did do was point out the victim mentality the unions promote.

BTW, my personal life is just fine for the record so I'm not sure why you bring that up unless you are projecting...

How does negotiating from strength promote a victim mentality?

Oh, congrats on getting your shit straightened out.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

How does negotiating from strength promote a victim mentality?

Oh, congrats on getting your shit straightened out.

negotiating from strength? You call giving up individuality for artificial "protection" "strength"? One must not think too highly of one's self if they need someone to protect them in a voluntary employment transaction. But like I said, if really are weak I could see where you'd want someone else to protect you from those who you willingly work for in exchange for a paycheck.

I don't know what shit you think I needed to straighten out but it's quite obvious you are trying to make things personal instead of topic related. You see Red, some of us live our lives without constantly playing victims. Any "shit" that comes my way gets dealt with and I move on. You see, some people think things happen to them and others like myself make things happen for them and grab those opportunities even if they stem from "bad" situations. Don't be bitter Red it can't be that bad for you...but please don't try to project things on to me. Now can you please stay on topic?

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

red dawn, are you part of a union?

 

[Jhhnn]

As usual, CSG has his anti-union talking points down pat. He might as well be a professional- maybe he is.

The first thing, of course, is to appeal to vanity, accuse union proponents of being "weak", of not being able to stand up to their mega-corp employer on their own. It's true, of course, that's why unions exist, so that workers can gain the strength to negotiate successfully. Yep, we're weak when we're alone- that hasn't changed, and, uhh, so what?

The next thing is claiming that employment is voluntary, when it's not, at all. Employment is a necessity, and the vast majority of jobs are working for somebody else, often the aforementioned mega-corps. It's capitalism, remember? If you don't have any, capital that is, then you work for somebody else.

And there's always the usual rightwing schtick about "efficiency", about how unions introduce inefficiencies into the marketplace. That's true. The whole middle class is terribly inefficient. In a perfect Capitalist utopia, the top .001% would be unbelievably wealthy and the rest would have just enough to make it to work most days... well, when their services were required, anyway... which has become rarer as the sources of wealth, labor, have been shifted offshore. Capitalism doesn't need us, except as consumers and borrowers, chained to whatever jobs they offer at whatever terms they dictate. So let's just get it over with, banish unions, move to the endgame, shall we?

 

[Red Dawn]

red dawn, are you part of a union?

I was a member of the Carpenters Union for ten year back in the 70's until I injured myself on the job.

 

[Red Dawn]

negotiating from strength? You call giving up individuality for artificial "protection" "strength"? One must not think too highly of one's self if they need someone to protect them in a voluntary employment transaction. But like I said, if really are weak I could see where you'd want someone else to protect you from those who you willingly work for in exchange for a paycheck.

I don't know what shit you think I needed to straighten out but it's quite obvious you are trying to make things personal instead of topic related. You see Red, some of us live our lives without constantly playing victims. Any "shit" that comes my way gets dealt with and I move on. You see, some people think things happen to them and others like myself make things happen for them and grab those opportunities even if they stem from "bad" situations. Don't be bitter Red it can't be that bad for you...but please don't try to project things on to me. Now can you please stay on topic?

Never felt like a victim, always had good experiences when I was part of a Union. Good pay, great benefits, great training sponsored by the Union.

 

[PokerGuy]

The next thing is claiming that employment is voluntary, when it's not, at all. Employment is a necessity, and the vast majority of jobs are working for somebody else, often the aforementioned mega-corps. It's capitalism, remember? If you don't have any, capital that is, then you work for somebody else.

WTF are you talking about? You have to be employed somewhere, but you don't have to work for a specific employer. If you don't like it, you can always go to another employer. You act like there's one employer in the world, and workers must unionize to protect them from this single evil employer because they have no choice in where to work, which is BS.

Capitalism doesn't need us, except as consumers and borrowers, chained to whatever jobs they offer at whatever terms they dictate. So let's just get it over with, banish unions, move to the endgame, shall we?

Again, you seem to live in some crazy world where employer overlords don't need employees, the employee is essentially worthless and powerless unless they unionize. Are you delusional?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Never felt like a victim, always had good experiences when I was part of a Union. Good pay, great benefits, great training sponsored by the Union.

You could have gotten that elsewhere if you worked hard and were any good at your job. You see, when unions get out of the way, people actually get paid and rewarded for their productivity - not just their seniority.

 

[BeauJangles]

You could have gotten that elsewhere if you worked hard and were any good at your job. You see, when unions get out of the way, people actually get paid and rewarded for their productivity - not just their seniority.

Way to completely ignore history when it doesn't suit your argument.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Way to completely ignore history when it doesn't suit your argument.

I already addressed the history. However, the time for their need has passed.

 

[Jhhnn]

WTF are you talking about? You have to be employed somewhere, but you don't have to work for a specific employer. If you don't like it, you can always go to another employer. You act like there's one employer in the world, and workers must unionize to protect them from this single evil employer because they have no choice in where to work, which is BS.



Again, you seem to live in some crazy world where employer overlords don't need employees, the employee is essentially worthless and powerless unless they unionize. Are you delusional?

I'm not delusional- although you may be. Have you checked the unemployment figures lately? almost 10%, 16% if you go by the total un- and under- employed. Nobody with enough sense to pour piss out of a boot is quitting anytime RSN... Now is a great time for employers to beat down the workforce... and for workers in critical positions to stand up and be counted...

 

[Red Dawn]

You could have gotten that elsewhere if you worked hard and were any good at your job. You see, when unions get out of the way, people actually get paid and rewarded for their productivity - not just their seniority.

See you are talking out your ass as usual. I was good and made over scale, the Union never got in the way. I never met a scab that made as much as a Union Carpenter because all the good Carpenters were in the Union. I also never had to get a job out of the hall as my set of skills were always in demand. I also never seen a shitty worker get protected by the Union, if they didn't cut it they were sent packing.

Regarding Seniority, that usually never comes into play in residential construction as you usually have to go out and look for work when the job is finished if the company you worked for didn't have anything else going on which would happen ever once in a while

 

[Genx87]

Heh in a time of deflationary pressures these bozo's think they should see an increase in wages that would typically outpace inflation in a hot economy? Funny!

Anyways I wonder if it will be like the Mass transit strike we had in Minneapolis about a decade ago. Nobody noticed. God that was funny watching them threaten MN taxpayers with congestion and when they went on strike there was no noticeable increase in congestion. Which really was more proof of the near uselessness of our system and made the strikers look silly.

 

[Genx87]

What you aren't taking into account is the fact that if there were no Unions at all, the benefits, cost-of-living raises, etc that non-union workers take for granted could very easily not exist anymore.

That is a load of shit. The majority of unions have been pushed into govt sector jobs. The private market is majority non-unionized and does fine.