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Phillip Morris smoking is bad commercial....

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First, they openly admit that cigs are bad, even lights and encourage people to visit their website for info about how bad they are and to info on quiting smoking. Ok, so why not stop selling them? They could save thier money by not making any more commercials and put it into other ventures that could replace cigarettes?
Your first mistake was believing in a notion that was literally invented by greedy trail lawyers. Garbage In = Garbage Out.

That notion is: people only make 'bad' decisions because they are not in possession of 'good' information. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! What a pile of steaming dung!

Of course people make bad decisions all the time fully informed of the potential risks. They always have, it is part of human nature.

I was reading an article about a very rare death linked to a widely used prescription drug. The deceased was a minor and his parents were quoted saying 'we would never have put our child on that drug if we knew this would be the outcome.' NO SH!T SHERLOCK!

- There are more than 40,000 people every year who would never leave home knowing they would be killed in an automobile accident that day

- Nobody would buy a lottery ticket knowing it would be a loser

- Nobody would board an aircraft knowing it would crash

- Nobody would invest a nickel in a company knowing they would lose it

- Nobody would [insert decision with potential risks here] knowing [insert bad outcome here] x 1,000,000

That a decision may prove to have a bad outcome has no bearing on whether the person was aware of the potential risks when making that decision.

It has been common knowledge for well over a century that smoking could be injurious to one's health. Laws and ordinances banning the use of tobacco for moral and health reasons date back to the 1700's. Even laws prohibiting tobacco for religious or moral reasons were based on the belief that tobacco was immoral (sinful) precisely because it was unhealthy.

In the 1800s, Mark Twain wasted no opportunity to harshly criticize anti-smoking advocates. Twain would often make sarcastic comments about the dangers of smoking to thumb his nose at health statistics. Of course, his point was never to deny that smoking could be injurious to one's health. His point was; 1. its foolish to go around warning people of something they already knew; 2. being alive puts one at risk of dying; 3. it was none of their business if he or anyone else wanted to smoke.

The terms "coffin nail" and "cancer stick" were in common use by the early 1900s. Novelty items such as the Coffin Nail Cigarette Box were a popular seller in the 1950s and 1960s.
 
Originally posted by: iloveme2
Thankfully Florida has outlawed smoking in public buildings. No more smoking sections in resturants. woohoo! 😀

This is bad. I don't smoke, and I don't see the sense in telling business owners what they can and can't allow.
 
Has anyone noticed that the domain of the URL they give in that ad is philipmorrisUSA.com ? If they really cared about educating everyone on the dangers of smoking they would have done this on their main site. They care nothing about the people who smoke, they are just going along with the legislation that the USA has placed on them...I think that more countries should make them do this.
 
Don't know about anyone else, but last time I checked, smoke of any kind is toxic to a human. Cigarette smoke has substances added that make it even more toxic. This is desirable? Sounds masochistic to me.
 
Everyone has their rights... But whose right is stronger? The smoker's right to smoke or the non-smokers right to not have to be around the smoke.

Bill
 
Originally posted by: CFster
And I'm not going to research every fact on that website. People can bend statistics and studies to say anything they want. It's the first thing I learned in Probabilities & Statistics in high school.

What I'm using is common sense. I'm going with our federal government, a multitude of international organizations, and personal experience on this one. Not to mention advice from several doctors.

What burns me is people who aren't content just to hurt themselves, but have a need to hurt other people as well. There are the ones who do it ignorantly (and that's why we have smoking laws), and people such as Dave Hitt and several posters here who insist on it. Ignorantly. Actually, maybe not ignorantly. I can't believe there are some people who believe it isn't harmful. There can't be. Nope, I think they're people who are addicted and try to justify their addiction in any way possible.

Wait, now you're going to tell me smoking isn't an addiction right?

and of course the government wouldn't bend stats and studies rite...:disgust:
 
I admit they're bad for me. As soon as non-smokers stop doing everything that is bad for them, I will think about quitting.
 
Question for smokers -

Do you smoke around your children? If you don't, why don't you?
 
Originally posted by: aRCeNiTe
Everyone has their rights... But whose right is stronger? The smoker's right to smoke or the non-smokers right to not have to be around the smoke.

Bill
Without a doubt, nobody's rights are "stronger". Nobody is forcing non-smokers to go to Fridays or AppleBees for dinner. Nobody is forcing you to frequent bars where smoking is permitted. And last time I checked, it shouldn't be your decision to decide if the owner of the establishment should ban smokers.

Your civil rights should not be extended to LIMIT my civil rights.

Second hand smoke annoys me just as much as the next person, but the government telling me that I cannot let people smoke in my place of business is most the ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

I have a crazy thought, how about mandating better ventilation for smoking sections in restaurants instead of banning it outright. But no, the anti-smoking zealots just won't have it.
rolleye.gif
 
Originally posted by: vi_edit
Question for smokers -

Do you smoke around your children? If you don't, why don't you?

Well, I don't smoke anymore. When I did smoke, I tried to avoid smoking around people that it bothered. If I was in the smoking section of a restaurant, I had no qualms about lighting up...it did annoy me that parents brought children into a smoking section because those children didn't have the option of choosing where to sit.
 
Originally posted by: iloveme2
Originally posted by: CFster
No I just have a problem with stupid people. You people want to kill yourselves that's fine with me. But when it endangers innocent bystanders I have a problem.

For example, my wife can't go into a bar or restaurant where there are people smoking because she'll have a violent asthma attack. You're arguement that second hand smoke isn't dangerous isn't based on any fact whatsoever and I challenge you to come up with proof otherwise.

There also the whole arguement that there's a lot of people out there who are too stupid to look after themselves. That's why there are laws.
The same is also true for my 10 y/o cousin. His parents have to make sure that he is protected at all times because he cannot breathe when he is around smoke.
I have severe hayfever. I demand that we plough under all species of gass so that I can breathe without severe irritation in the fall. Oh, wait, that's a stupid argument. Oh, wait, that's the exact same argument you're using.

ZV
 
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: iloveme2
Originally posted by: CFster
No I just have a problem with stupid people. You people want to kill yourselves that's fine with me. But when it endangers innocent bystanders I have a problem.

For example, my wife can't go into a bar or restaurant where there are people smoking because she'll have a violent asthma attack. You're arguement that second hand smoke isn't dangerous isn't based on any fact whatsoever and I challenge you to come up with proof otherwise.

There also the whole arguement that there's a lot of people out there who are too stupid to look after themselves. That's why there are laws.
The same is also true for my 10 y/o cousin. His parents have to make sure that he is protected at all times because he cannot breathe when he is around smoke.
I have severe hayfever. I demand that we plough under all species of gass so that I can breathe without severe irritation in the fall. Oh, wait, that's a stupid argument. Oh, wait, that's the exact same argument you're using.

ZV

:beer:
 
Originally posted by: CFster
Exactly.

However, I'm sure the dumbasses above would argue that you shouldn't bring your cousin into a situation like that.

That he shouldn't enjoy the freedoms that other people enjoy I suppose.

He can't go to a FREEKING restaurant!
Going to a restaurant is not a right. Sorry.

ZV
 
Without a doubt, nobody's rights are "stronger". Nobody is forcing non-smokers to go to Fridays or AppleBees for dinner. Nobody is forcing you to frequent bars where smoking is permitted. And last time I checked, it shouldn't be your decision to decide if the owner of the establishment should ban smokers.

Your civil rights should not be extended to LIMIT my civil rights.

Second hand smoke annoys me just as much as the next person, but the government telling me that I cannot let people smoke in my place of business is most the ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

I have a crazy thought, how about mandating better ventilation for smoking sections in restaurants instead of banning it outright. But no, the anti-smoking zealots just won't have it.
Holy SH!T! Someone who understands the reality of what's going on in the anti-smoking battle. Someone who can see beyond their own opinion.

Your first mistake was believing in a notion that was literally invented by greedy trail lawyers. Garbage In = Garbage Out.

That notion is: people only make 'bad' decisions because they are not in possession of 'good' information. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! What a pile of steaming dung!

Of course people make bad decisions all the time fully informed of the potential risks. They always have, it is part of human nature.

I was reading an article about a very rare death linked to a widely used prescription drug. The deceased was a minor and his parents were quoted saying 'we would never have put our child on that drug if we knew this would be the outcome.' NO SH!T SHERLOCK!

- There are more than 40,000 people every year who would never leave home knowing they would be killed in an automobile accident that day

- Nobody would buy a lottery ticket knowing it would be a loser

- Nobody would board an aircraft knowing it would crash

- Nobody would invest a nickel in a company knowing they would lose it

- Nobody would [insert decision with potential risks here] knowing [insert bad outcome here] x 1,000,000

That a decision may prove to have a bad outcome has no bearing on whether the person was aware of the potential risks when making that decision.

It has been common knowledge for well over a century that smoking could be injurious to one's health. Laws and ordinances banning the use of tobacco for moral and health reasons date back to the 1700's. Even laws prohibiting tobacco for religious or moral reasons were based on the belief that tobacco was immoral (sinful) precisely because it was unhealthy.

In the 1800s, Mark Twain wasted no opportunity to harshly criticize anti-smoking advocates. Twain would often make sarcastic comments about the dangers of smoking to thumb his nose at health statistics. Of course, his point was never to deny that smoking could be injurious to one's health. His point was; 1. its foolish to go around warning people of something they already knew; 2. being alive puts one at risk of dying; 3. it was none of their business if he or anyone else wanted to smoke.

The terms "coffin nail" and "cancer stick" were in common use by the early 1900s. Novelty items such as the Coffin Nail Cigarette Box were a popular seller in the 1950s and 1960s.
That is the sound of all of you anti-smoking zealots being completely, and utterly owned.


Question for smokers -

Do you smoke around your children? If you don't, why don't you?
This question has been posed a zillion times. Everyone knows the answer. It really doesn't have much relevance to the topic at hand.
So SO many things are directly dangerous to your health, do you watch them all around your children? Using a child's health to single out somethin and justify it's lack of worth is weak, at best.

I love how non-smokers call smokers selfish. Wanting the govt., restaurant/bar owners, smokers and everyone else to change their lifestyle and care about YOUR health, is EXTREMELY selfish. All you are doing is putting yourself, and your agenda ahead of everyone elses.

Your health is not the governments, or anyone elses responsibility.
 
Your health is not the governments, or anyone elses responsibility.
it is, your health affects how much you spend at a hospital, that reflects back at the insurance companies or the government (depends on where you live)
these extra expenses then affect the rest
 
Originally posted by: Busie23
I have seen this commercial a few times in the last few days and still can't fathom why cigs are still for sale and why people still smoke them.

First, they openly admit that cigs are bad, even lights and encourage people to visit their website for info about how bad they are and to info on quiting smoking. Ok, so why not stop selling them? They could save thier money by not making any more commercials and put it into other ventures that could replace cigarettes?

And second, I'm sitting there next to my mom as this comes on and I tell her she needs to stop smoking. She promptly replies with a BS line about how it's not really that bad and if i don't like it i can go in the other room?

Why are smokers so ignorant towards the fact off what they are doing is bad, and harmful to other poeple? THE DAMN maker of the cigarettes is telling you they are bad, yet they are alloud to keep selling them, and these idiots keep smoking them? How stupid is that?


stupid
 
it is, your health affects how much you spend at a hospital, that reflects back at the insurance companies or the government (depends on where you live)
these extra expenses then affect the rest
Oh please. That is such a lame cop out.
So, by using that argument, it's my responsibility to keep your driving in check, your eating habits, your spending habits, hell, even your sexual habits. Having thoes babies means lots of hospital time.

Justifying something by purly monetary reasons is cold.
 
Originally posted by: Czar
Your health is not the governments, or anyone elses responsibility.
it is, your health affects how much you spend at a hospital, that reflects back at the insurance companies or the government (depends on where you live)
these extra expenses then affect the rest

A perfect example of exactly why socialism is anathema to freedom. Just as your parents get to dictate how you live while they take care of you, so does the government.

Of course, the fact that their early death saves money in long term elderly health care and Social Security pay outs more than offsets their short term medical costs is irrelevant to the elitists. They don't want you to know that. If you did, you might not work so hard for them.

As for insurance, smokers PAY a HIGHER PREMIUM for their smoking. Just as bad drivers pay higher insurance rates and people who can't pay their bills on time pay higher interest. The PRIVATE SECTOR (unlike socialist governments programs) has learned how to make those who cost them more... PAY MORE.
 
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Czar
Your health is not the governments, or anyone elses responsibility.
it is, your health affects how much you spend at a hospital, that reflects back at the insurance companies or the government (depends on where you live)
these extra expenses then affect the rest

A perfect example of exactly why socialism is anathema to freedom. Just as your parents get to dictate how you live while they take care of you, so does the government.

Of course, the fact that their early death saves money in long term elderly health care and Social Security pay outs more than offsets their short term medical costs is irrelevant to the elitists. They don't want you to know that. If you did, you might not work so hard for them.

As for insurance, smokers PAY a HIGHER PREMIUM for their smoking. Just as bad drivers pay higher insurance rates and people who can't pay their bills on time pay higher interest. The PRIVATE SECTOR (unlike socialist governments programs) has learned how to make those who cost them more... PAY MORE.

Just a guess, but I'm starting to think that those of us who agree the smoking ban trend is bad are Libertarians. 🙂
 
Originally posted by: CChaos
Don't you guys realize that cigarette smoke knows who the smoker is and only gives them cancer. Secondhand smoke just turns into little rainbows when it hits a non-smokers lungs. Oh and Amused, have your wife smoke through her pregnancy and around your kids as they are growing up. The gene pool requires cleansing.

Hey, dipsh!t,

More than 30% of women DID smoke through their pregnancies before the late 1960s. The most common side effect? Slightly low birth weight in less than 3% of their kids.

Yet you ignorantly spread another wildly exaggerated cliché so smugly. Hmmmmm

As for your first little "joke." Diesel exhaust is FAR more cancerous than tobacco smoke. Yet tens of thousands of people are not dying of it each year. Airport tarmac employees are offed at 35. Truck drivers aren't kicking the bucket at 40. Why not?

Because the AMOUNT of exposure and STRENGTH of EXPOSURE is the key. And the majority of peer reviewed studies done has found NO significant increase in cancer among those exposed to ETS. And not a SINGLE study has linked any disease to the occasional exposure most are whining about in this thread.
 
Originally posted by: Feldenak
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Czar
Your health is not the governments, or anyone elses responsibility.
it is, your health affects how much you spend at a hospital, that reflects back at the insurance companies or the government (depends on where you live)
these extra expenses then affect the rest

A perfect example of exactly why socialism is anathema to freedom. Just as your parents get to dictate how you live while they take care of you, so does the government.

Of course, the fact that their early death saves money in long term elderly health care and Social Security pay outs more than offsets their short term medical costs is irrelevant to the elitists. They don't want you to know that. If you did, you might not work so hard for them.

As for insurance, smokers PAY a HIGHER PREMIUM for their smoking. Just as bad drivers pay higher insurance rates and people who can't pay their bills on time pay higher interest. The PRIVATE SECTOR (unlike socialist governments programs) has learned how to make those who cost them more... PAY MORE.

Just a guess, but I'm starting to think that those of us who agree the smoking ban trend is bad are Libertarians. 🙂

Yep 🙂

But it makes the elitists feel better is they could lable us "smokers" or "tobacco supporters."

What is funny is a lot of the folks supporting the smoking bans are against the war on drugs. How the fsck do they justify that inconsistancy?
 
Originally posted by: vi_edit
It's not a conspiracy, the EPA report was just bad science.

And similar reports by a couple other nations and a worldwide organization are also bad science?

Actually, yes.

Check out how WHO had to eat their own words and twist facts to make their own study say something it DOES NOT:

from Reason Magazine

A Whiff of Risk

By Jacob Sullum

March 18, 1998

"Passive Smoking Doesn't Cause Cancer," announced the headline of a recent story in the London Telegraph that described a study by the World Health Organization. "Passive Smoking Does Cause Lung Cancer," said the headline of a WHO press release issued the next day.

The contradictory headlines had something in common: Both went beyond what the evidence shows. Indeed, since any lung cancer risk from environmental tobacco smoke (ETS) is likely to be minuscule, we may never be able to verify an effect--or rule one out--using the crude tools of epidemiology.

The WHO study, the second largest of its kind, included 650 nonsmokers with lung cancer and 1,542 controls. After dividing the subjects into groups based on reported contact with smokers, the researchers found "there was no association between lung cancer risk and ETS exposure during childhood."

But they calculated that subjects married to smokers were 1.16 times as likely to have lung cancer as those married to nonsmokers. The risk was slightly higher (1.17) for subjects who worked with smokers and slightly lower (1.14) for those who had both kinds of exposure.

If the study really had measured risk with the precision implied by these numbers, it would be odd that people with greater exposure were [set ital]less[end ital] likely to have lung cancer. But given the statistical margins of error, these three risk ratios are indistinguishable. More important, each of them is indistinguishable from a ratio of 1.0, meaning no added risk--another way of saying that the results are statistically insignificant.

British-American Tobacco said the study--which has not yet been published by a medical journal but was summarized in a report from WHO's International Agency for Research on Cancer--indicated that "the risk of lung cancer from environmental tobacco smoke [is] either non-existent or too small to be measured at any meaningful level." WHO insisted that "the findingswere consistent with earlier studies."

Both were right. Weak, statistically insignificant associations are typical of the research on ETS and lung cancer. This is the pattern you'd expect if ETS had a barely detectable effect.

It is also the pattern you'd expect if ETS had no effect, but other factors, such as dietary habits or unreported smoking, were boosting lung cancer rates among the subjects classified as exposed. Researchers try to take such factors into account, but since they are forced to rely largely on self-reports, it's impossible to know whether their adjustments are adequate.

The impact of ETS is difficult to assess mainly because the doses of carcinogens absorbed by nonsmokers are tiny compared to those absorbed by smokers, so any risk would be correspondingly small. The problem is complicated by the fact that lung cancer is rare among nonsmokers, making it hard to get samples big enough to generate statistically significant results.

Consequently, there is plenty of room for spin. Gordon McVie, director of Britain's Cancer Research Campaign, said BAT's take on the WHO study was "highly misleading." Yet his own summary of the evidence indicates that the case against ETS is not exactly overwhelming: "The weight of the statistics show that there is more likely to be an effect than not to be an effect. The risk is a small one, but the evidence certainly does not prove that no risk is present."

That measured assessment contrasts sharply with the assertions of American anti-smoking activists and public health officials, who say there's no doubt that ETS poses a dire threat and darkly imply that anyone who disagrees must be allied with the tobacco companies. Longtime anti-smoker Stanton Glantz tars skeptics as "apologists" who are "repeating the standard industry arguments."

Such blithe dismissals avoid the need to deal with criticism. They also suggest that only the skeptics have an agenda, when in fact tobacco's opponents are heavily invested in the idea that ETS kills. As Glantz noted in 1986, that claim allows anti-smokers to use "the rhetoric of the environment, toxic chemicals, and public health rather than the rhetoric of saving smokers from themselves."

In a 1997 Washington Post story on ETS, the widely respected University of Chicago biostatistician John C. Bailar said "the evidence for lung cancer is not as strong as some of the proponents say [it] is. That is not to say that they are wrong, but that they might be wrong." It's a possibility that people like Glantz seem never to consider. [END]

 
mmk, so we have Jacob Sullum (the author of the article), British-American Tobacco and some "biostatistician" from Chicago disputing the WHO study.

Absolutely nothing conclusive is stated in the article. For EITHER side. Let me guess, you were impressed by the big words? Do you listen to Rush as well?

BTW, here is a review of Jacob Sullum's book "In Defense of Drug Use"

Man, some jokes just write themselves...

 
Originally posted by: CFster
mmk, so we have Jacob Sullum (the author of the article), British-American Tobacco and some "biostatistician" from Chicago disputing the WHO study.

Absolutely nothing conclusive is stated in the article. For EITHER side. Let me guess, you were impressed by the big words? Do you listen to Rush as well?

BTW, here is a review of Jacob Sullum's book "In Defense of Drug Use"

Man, some jokes just write themselves...

The joke here is on you. The book is about the ever more widely accepted libertarian viewpoint that the war on drugs is MORE damaging to society than drug addiction itself. And because he points out the medically proven fact that SOME people CAN be long term functional addicts, he is to be blacklisted?

You know, I'd be impressed if you could EVER debate the facts without resorting to debating errors so egregious and basic they are taught in middle school debating classes.

You continue to poison the wells, but you NEVER address the facts or issues. WHO'S OWN STUDY showed a NEGLIGIBLE (within the margin of error) danger of ETS. A US FEDERAL JUDGE has thrown out the EPA report due to bad science and you STILL refuse to capitulate.

You know, I bet you still believe silicone breast implants cause disease.
 
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