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Phil Robertson and freedom to have an opinion

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pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
7,016
2,128
136
That is not what I said...
but pauldun170 said that Mr Duck gave up his right when he went to work for A&E....

pauldun said -- You can't go on the national stage representing an A&E property and say "I'm christian and I think Gays smell like dookie"
It appears there is a communication issue/
No I did not say he gave up his rights.

quick review

I will explain it to you

The first amendment was written to prevent the federal government from writing laws that restricted speech. The supreme court added some gotchas later on.

In 1925, the first amendment was incorporated
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorporation_of_the_Bill_of_Rights#Amendment_I
What the means is that now the states couldn't write laws restricting free speech.

So from 1791 to 1925, what you said could get you arrested and sent to prison depending on the state you lived in.

For the past couple of decades, we can say what we want and not worry about being arrested(as long as you don't run afoul of Supreme court rulings)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Supreme_Court_cases_involving_the_First_Amendment

This Duck Dynasty guy made some statements that caused some butthurt.
He has every right to express his views and he does not have to worry about being arrested or charged with a crime.
That's a great thing

This is an international forum and many posters live in countries where public statements or verbally expressing beliefs can get them locked up.
Our laws protect our ability to speak out mind.

The freedom to speak your mind does not protect the speaker from ridicule, public condemnation and termination of employment (unless that employer happens to be the Government or an entity that falls under federal\state umbrella...but that gets complicated and is not related to Mr Duck)
Mr Duck's employer is not a federal entity nor is it a state entity therefore they are under no legal obligation to respect the first amendment. The only legal obligation being mr Duck and his employer are explicitly defined laws that typically fall under the labor law and the legally binding employment contract signed by both parties.

The first amendment does not protect you from "retaliation"
If you say "Gays suck". Someone can say "Your fathers cock"
If you scream "Gays should be shot", unless there is a reasonable expectation that your words will result in gays being shot you can say that. However, that does not protect your Governor from calling you a brain dead moron.
If there is reasonable expectation that your words carry enough weight that will result in someone shooting gays, you potentially crossed the line.
Following in response to post concerning workplace discrimination.
Assuming that Mr Duck's religion is <insert sect> Christianity.
You would have to prove that there is discrimination against <insert sect> christians at A&E.

I highly doubt that there are policies, procedures or precedent in place that would reveal systematic discrimination against Christians at A&E.

My gut instinct is that Mr Ducks actions ran afoul of policies governing reputational risk over at A&E and his personal beliefs of gays is not the issue.

The issue is making public statements as a representative of A&E that embarrass the company and threaten its bottom line.

You can walk around the office all day saying God loves you but hates gays (unless you are such a dick about it that you create a hostile work environment).
You can't go on the national stage representing an A&E property and say "I'm christian and I think Gays smell like dookie"
Mr Duck exercised his rights and has not had any rights or entitlements trampled in the process.
You have the right to embarrass your employer.
You are not entitled to a paycheck from that employer after you embarrass them.

I for one fully support Mr Ducks right to say what he said.
I also support the right of an employer to fire employees who cause the company headaches.
I did not say "rights"
What I'm saying is that making statements that fall under the reputational risk umbrella is a firable offense not subject to discrimination law.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,876
460
126
What is "typical" of me? Do you know me? Have we ever met? No? So how is this "typical" of me.
I am impressed, sir. Apparently you have established yourself as a viable brand in less than forty posts. Though homeschooled kids are often considerably ahead of public school kids. I've a friend who just gave up their homeschooling (mainly for sports opportunities) and some of their kids jumped a grade and all are still at the top of their classes. It's not at all unusual for homeschooled kids to enter public school in high school or college and be considerably ahead of their age group peers. Although some I've known (not this friend's) have been bashful and socially awkward.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,373
7,263
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What I'm saying is that making statements that fall under the reputational risk umbrella is a firable offense not subject to discrimination law.
And a standard non - negotiable clause in virtually all companies' employment contracts and contractor SLA's.
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
I am impressed, sir. Apparently you have established yourself as a viable brand in less than forty posts. Though homeschooled kids are often considerably ahead of public school kids. I've a friend who just gave up their homeschooling (mainly for sports opportunities) and some of their kids jumped a grade and all are still at the top of their classes. It's not at all unusual for homeschooled kids to enter public school in high school or college and be considerably ahead of their age group peers. Although some I've known (not this friend's) have been bashful and socially awkward.

The problem with home schooling is its only as good as the Teacher, in a lot of cases this can be much better than the standards of public eduction, in a lot of cases its much worse.

Doesn't take away from the fact Texas Hiker has no clue whats he is talking about on this issue. When i go to the Boycott A & E Facebook page there is no shortage of home school teachers that don't understand the constitution or the right of speech even though its their FB profile walllpaper.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
7,016
2,128
136
sorry I forgot I have to be so fucking specific with you zombies.

homosexual acts are sinful.

feel better now?
"Sin" is an offense against religious or moral law
Religious laws are permabanned by US constitution so by definition ..null and void. Any talk of bible or koran or owners manual for a 1987 Vespa become inspirational talk imprinted on toilet paper.

Moral laws are defined by society and are constantly changing.
If society decides buttsex is fine and dandy then buttsex is thereby moral behavior. What people thought 50 years ago automatically becomes anecdote in history. Interracial marriage was considered immoral. Dancing was considered immoral. Exposing an ankle was considered immoral.

The issues right now is that some people don't like the change in moral standards while some people are tired of other people's moral standards interfering with their legal rights guaranteed by the equal protection clause of the US constitution.

Mr Duck and his family are well known Evangelists and bible thumping evangelist from down there have plenty of interesting beliefs and moral code that many Christians would find embarrassing to claim as their own.
The moral code being pushed by southern evangelist is part a fringe.
While not all of it is bad, some of it is best left to the history books.

I'm glad I'm straight and agnostic.
I can just sit back and mock
 
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lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
"Sin" is an offense against religious or moral law
Religious laws are permabanned by US constitution so by definition who null and void. Any talk of bible or koran or owners manual for a 1987 Vespa become inspirational talk imprinted on toilet paper.

Moral laws are defined by society and are constantly changing.
If society decides buttsex is fine and dandy then buttsex is thereby moral behavior. What people thought 50 years ago automatically becomes anecdote in history. Interracial marriage was considered immoral. Dancing was considered immoral. Exposing an ankle was considered immoral.

The issues right now is that some people don't like the change in moral standards while other some people are tired of other people's moral standards interfering with their legal rights guaranteed by the equal protection clause of the US constitution.

Mr Duck and his family are well known Evangelists and bible thumping evangelist from down there have plenty of interesting beliefs and moral code that many Christians would find embarrassing to claim as their own.
The moral code being pushed by southern evangelist is part a fringe.
While not all of it is bad, some of it is best left to the history books.

I'm glad I'm straight and agnostic.
I can just sit back and mock
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,876
460
126
The problem with home schooling is its only as good as the Teacher, in a lot of cases this can be much better than the standards of public education, in a lot of cases its much worse.

Doesn't take away from the fact Texas Hiker has no clue whats he is talking about on this issue. When i go to the Boycott A & E Facebook page there is no shortage of home school teachers that don't understand the constitution or the right of speech even though its their FB profile walllpaper.
True, but there are plenty of public school teachers to whom that also applies.
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
True, but there are plenty of public school teachers to whom that also applies.
Agreed, however we do know even the shitty teachers have some sort of formal education or background that qualifies them, there are educational standards etc.

To home school you don't have to have any qualifications at all outside of the desire to do it.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,876
460
126
"Sin" is an offense against religious or moral law
Religious laws are permabanned by US constitution so by definition ..null and void. Any talk of bible or koran or owners manual for a 1987 Vespa become inspirational talk imprinted on toilet paper.

Moral laws are defined by society and are constantly changing.
If society decides buttsex is fine and dandy then buttsex is thereby moral behavior. What people thought 50 years ago automatically becomes anecdote in history. Interracial marriage was considered immoral. Dancing was considered immoral. Exposing an ankle was considered immoral.

The issues right now is that some people don't like the change in moral standards while other some people are tired of other people's moral standards interfering with their legal rights guaranteed by the equal protection clause of the US constitution.

Mr Duck and his family are well known Evangelists and bible thumping evangelist from down there have plenty of interesting beliefs and moral code that many Christians would find embarrassing to claim as their own.
The moral code being pushed by southern evangelist is part a fringe.
While not all of it is bad, some of it is best left to the history books.

I'm glad I'm straight and agnostic.
I can just sit back and mock
I'd say rather that a sin is an offense against G-d, as religious laws are merely man's interpretation of G-d's will and in addition are subject to non-religious considerations creeping in. That's a non-trivial distinction because back when warfare was predominantly hand-to-hand and agricultural yields were barely over 100%, every possible child was needed. Homosexuality would have been a serious blow to the society's security from external forces and famine.

Given that the major religions are not in complete agreement over what constitutes a sin, that religious laws evolve over time, and that nothing written down by man is going to be immune from non-religious considerations unless directly dictated by G-d, I think it's safe to say that breaking religious laws is not necessarily the same as a sin.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,876
460
126
Agreed, however we do know even the shitty teachers have some sort of formal education or background that qualifies them, there are educational standards etc.

To home school you don't have to have any qualifications at all outside of the desire to do it.
True. I imagine there are some home schoolers for religious reasons who are thoroughly unsuited to teach their kids.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,155
8
0
They knew the guy was a Christian and he was very outspoken about his views. He made these comments before.

Also they're suspending him yet still have no problem running the Duck Dynasty marathon and still want to make money off of him.
/this.

I think they are hypocrites. They are willing to kick him off the air but nto stop airing his shows? whaa?
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
30,469
9,403
136
/this.

I think they are hypocrites. They are willing to kick him off the air but nto stop airing his shows? whaa?
The others can quit, break the contract, pay them back...and keep their morals and ethics as outspoken as they like. If it's truly what they believe, then why aren't they doing it?

ah, that's right....money. Maybe they skipped the passage in the Bible where it says that the love of money is the root of all evil.

Do they realize that gays and african americans might be watching their show? oh no!!
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,155
8
0
The others can quit, break the contract, pay them back...and keep their morals and ethics as outspoken as they like. If it's truly what they believe, then why aren't they doing it?

ah, that's right....money. Maybe they skipped the passage in the Bible where it says that the love of money is the root of all evil.

Do they realize that gays and african americans might be watching their show? oh no!!
uhm. they have. they said they don't want to come back without him..

pay them back for what? they did the shows and A&E is free to air them (and they will). they just will be out future earnings.


IF A&E was really offended they would yank the show off the air, yank the merchandise out of the shelves. etc

but you know they won't and haven't.
 
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ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
30,469
9,403
136
uhm. they have. they said they don't want to come back without him..

pay them back for what? they did the shows and A&E is free to air them (and they will). they just will be out future earnings.


IF A&E was really offended they would yank the show off the air, yank the merchandise out of the shelves. etc

but you know they won't and haven't.
I meant pay them back if they already got money for the new seasons episodes that haven't been made yet (if there are any). my bad, wasn't clear.

A&E won't do any of that, we both know that. They want money too.

We shall see what happens here :)
 

Daverino

Platinum Member
Mar 15, 2007
2,004
1
0
sorry I forgot I have to be so fucking specific with you zombies.

homosexual acts are sinful.

feel better now?
Or maybe I'm not a zombie and married to a Catholic so I know what the fuck I'm talking about?

Other sinful sex acts include masturbation, using birth control (including the rhythm method), using fertility drugs, having an abortion, having artificial insemination and reading pornography.

Please STOP using Catholicism to defend this guy. He's not Catholic and it's obvious that you and a lot of other people in here know fuck-all about the religion.
 
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michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
Or maybe I'm not a zombie and married to a Catholic so I know what the fuck I'm talking about?

Other sinful sex acts include masturbation, using birth control (including the rhythm method), using fertility drugs, having an abortion, having artificial insemination and reading pornography.

Please STOP using Catholicism to defend this guy. He's not Catholic and it's obvious that you and a lot of other people in here know fuck-all about the religion.
bla bla bla

stop Christian bashing.

its obvious your a liar on Christianity . and did not read the gq piece. Your nothing but a knee jerk type that gets offended over anything and everything.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,101
11,715
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I am impressed, sir. Apparently you have established yourself as a viable brand in less than forty posts. Though homeschooled kids are often considerably ahead of public school kids. I've a friend who just gave up their homeschooling (mainly for sports opportunities) and some of their kids jumped a grade and all are still at the top of their classes. It's not at all unusual for homeschooled kids to enter public school in high school or college and be considerably ahead of their age group peers. Although some I've known (not this friend's) have been bashful and socially awkward.
A viable brand? Not completely sure what you mean there.

Home schooling is a fairly large deal here in Canada as it is in the US although there are, it seems, rather more stringent requirments/standards that have to be met in Canada than in at least some areas of the US. But, having said that, I'd have to admit to not being real knowledgeable about the subject.

As well, based on talks with the home schooling families that I know, it seems to be rather less driven by religious folks up here.

I actually have no problems with home schooling as a concept. The problem I have is the more extreme religious types who are involved in the movement and the fact that an awful lot of them are home schooling simply to indoctrinate their kids in their religious belief system. I suspect you know the type. Anti-evolution and so on.
 

Daverino

Platinum Member
Mar 15, 2007
2,004
1
0
bla bla bla

stop Christian bashing.

its obvious your a liar on Christianity . and did not read the gq piece. Your nothing but a knee jerk type that gets offended over anything and everything.
Seriously buddy, fuck you. Don't tell me I'm not a Christian.

I am offended BECAUSE I'm a Christian. Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior died to forgive ALL our sins and did not include a 'no-homo' clause.
 
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bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
4,690
293
126
www.bradlygsmith.org
Homosexuality would have been a serious blow to the society's security from external forces and famine.
Yes we can thank gays for slowing down our overpopulation problem. And I can think of no global problem that is not caused by overpopulation (famine, poverty, unemployment, wars over resources, global warming, healthcare crises, animal overuse and extinction, etc.) So there's that.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,820
1,123
126
Seriously buddy, fuck you. Don't tell me I'm not a Christian.

I am offended BECAUSE I'm a Christian. Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior died to forgive ALL our sins and did not include a 'no-homo' clause.
100% born and raised devout Catholic who thinks the person you quoted is seriously and/or willfully misguided. FFS not every Christian thinks the same yet every day I hear someone come along and pretend to be the Ultimate Voice. Is it really that hard to get on board that not all Christians have their heads up their ass? (No pun intended considering the subject matter)
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,299
1,201
126
100% born and raised devout Catholic who thinks the person you quoted is seriously and/or willfully misguided. FFS not every Christian thinks the same yet every day I hear someone come along and pretend to be the Ultimate Voice. Is it really that hard to get on board that not all Christians have their heads up their ass? (No pun intended considering the subject matter)
Yea, but it would be pretty vanilla without them. It is quite entertaining to engage them. How exciting would it be if we all agreed?
 

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