Phil Jackson: Jordan better than Kobe

[child of wonder]

That easily goes both ways, imagine Kobe playing alongside Pippen and Rodman. Both Kobe and Jordan played with amazing team mates and coaches, and without those two things neither of them would have won anything.

Except Pippen would never have evolved into the player he was without Jordan as a teammate.

To me, people can say what they want about MJ vs. Kobe but what stands out for me is how much he elevated his teammates. Had Pippen never not been traded to Chicago, I doubt many would laud him as a top 50 player.

How many of Kobe's teammates have evolved into better players? How many have come to the Lakers and played poorly? How many players have publicly stated they want to get away from Kobe? How many said that of Jordan?

 

[Blackjack200]

beyond Rodman who was a star elsewhere, look at who kobe has played well

the difference is kobe played with people who were already superstars, where as jordan was the only superstar on that team and he made everyone around him better.

Oh yeah? How did Pippen do the year Jordan was gone?

 

[Blackjack200]

Except Pippen would never have evolved into the player he was without Jordan as a teammate.

To me, people can say what they want about MJ vs. Kobe but what stands out for me is how much he elevated his teammates. Had Pippen never not been traded to Chicago, I doubt many would laud him as a top 50 player.

How many of Kobe's teammates have evolved into better players? How many have come to the Lakers and played poorly? How many players have publicly stated they want to get away from Kobe? How many said that of Jordan?

WHAT?

lol.

 

[purbeast0]

Except Pippen would never have evolved into the player he was without Jordan as a teammate.

To me, people can say what they want about MJ vs. Kobe but what stands out for me is how much he elevated his teammates. Had Pippen never not been traded to Chicago, I doubt many would laud him as a top 50 player.

How many of Kobe's teammates have evolved into better players? How many have come to the Lakers and played poorly? How many players have publicly stated they want to get away from Kobe? How many said that of Jordan?

dwight howard has regressed as a laker. what a waste of talent.

Oh yeah? How did Pippen do the year Jordan was gone?

no clue but i'm sure you know how to use google.

 

[zinfamous]

this falls under: no shit, Sherlock.

Lebron better than both

this falls under: lolwut? (I'd agree better than Kobe, though)

 

[Blackjack200]

no clue

Guess not.

 

[Attic]

Phil's correct of course. He's also spot on for not mentioning LeBron in the comparison.

I'd be surprised if we ever see anyone better than Jordan in the next 50 years. Kobe is absolutely one of the best ever, but Jordan is clearly at a different level.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Basketball fans today are stupid. Omg did you see Lebron dunk on 5'11" Jason Terry? He's the best evar! Let's just forget that he couldn't do piss without Wade or his other all star teammate in Bosh. Or the fact he disappears in the biggest moments.
Lebron has a long ways to go before I even compare him to Kobe. Lebron has one highly questionable championship where he teamed up with all stars and a bunch of older vet ring chasers on minimum contracts. Kobe has 5 rings.

 

[zinfamous]

Got bored of kicking everyone's ass. Figured it'd be more of a challenge to do it in his mid thirties. He figured wrong as he was still toying with the rest of the NBA a few years shy of being 40.

well, here is why Jordan did what he did:

His father's murder took a noticeable toll on his psyche and personal life. His and Father's earliest and first love was always baseball, and MJ made a promise to his dad that he would play in the MLB. He took it upon himself to work towards that goal, as a tribute.

His first half season was rocky, as people recall....but it was seen as more of a circus when you compare his prowess on the basketball court. The truth is that during his final half season with Birmingham and the summer spent in the AAA elite league (forget what this is called, but considered a major stepping stone for many on their way to the Majors), Jordan, astonishingly bumped his average from something like a .207 to a .275. He relentlessly worked on all of his batting mechanics throughout that season, and showed nothing but steady, consistent improvement. His strikeouts fell sharply, his OBP escalated, and even his fielding improved remarkably.

Those who actually followed his progress during this time couldn't really make a comparison to anyone else showing that type of drastic improvement. He was by any estimation on his way to the majors....then the strike happened.

People seem to forget this--he didn't go back to the NBA b/c he was failing at baseball; he returned to the NBA because baseball ceased to exist for a season. Jordan was, in fact, improving and succeeding in baseball at a level never before realized.

There was a 30 for 30 doc, or maybe a lengthy article that reflected on Jordan's time in MLB. Rather startling, actually.

Of course, then Jordan returns to basketball, completely alters his game, and manages to be even better than he was before. what the hell--guy was a monster.

 

[purbeast0]

i still have my #45 jordan jersey

 

[zinfamous]

i hear what youre saying.. jordan is easily a better player overall. but lebron is twice the physical specimen, and WHEN he does decide to play at his abilities there is not a god damn thing ANYONE can do about it. i think lebron in his best moments defeat anything jordan could do, but those moments are so far in between that you cant make the argument for lebron being the better player.

kobe is smaller then both of them, and while i could say kobe has a more natural shot, jordan just made anything he threw up. it didnt matter. kobe had a year or two that was like that, but jordan had like 8 years of it.

lebron vs kobe is a good debate i guess, but if lebron was against kobe in his prime i think lebron still owns him. hes too tall, too big, too fast, too strong. put kobe's willpower in lebrons body and you have a jordan killer, but thats not reality.

then someone should remind you and Lebron that basketball is a team game.

Jordan realized this, and played at the top of his game 100% of the time. Physical prowess and skill means nothing if you aren't willing to perform.

Remember Jordan dropping 45 points with a fever approaching 100? you think Lebron will ever do that?



I find the argument that Lebron playing at the top of his game is ever better than Jordan ever was to be rather specious.

Lebron at the top of his game still can't shoot from range, still has no fadeaway, and still isn't clutch.

 

[Blackjack200]

Phil's correct of course. He's also spot on for not mentioning LeBron in the comparison.

Phil didn't coach LeBron. His opinion is interesting because he coached both Jordan and Kobe and has a unique perspective on those two. If he started talking about LeBron it would be less informed than a beat writer.

 

[zinfamous]

I'm not sure Kobe is even the 2nd best guard in Lakers history, much less the NBA. Kobe vs. Magic Johnson is a pretty even contest IMHO.

seriously--how can anyone put Kobe above Magic? wtfidon'teven...

 

[zinfamous]

Interestingly, those qualities as yet haven't manifested beyond the court. It's not that he's a failure or anything, but one would almost think he could be the next Phil Jackson or Pat Ewing, or at least a brilliant person at picking talent. But in reality, he hasn't risen to anywhere near anything resembling real success in those areas. Perhaps he's just not that driven any more. He's richer than he could ever want to be, it seems like that old fire is just fading away. Sort of a shame, what I wouldn't give to see MJ out there coaching up a storm and blowing us all away with his final act.

I think the problem with guys like this trying to coach, manage, lead off the court--is that they simply can't comprehend the differences among other players regarding that mental focus you are talking about. In fact, this is how I always explained Jordan's failure as a coach--he's Michael fucking Jordan, and he really can't wrap his mind around the fact that no one else plays the game thinking, like he did, that they are Michael fucking Jordan.

--I'm not saying that it was an ego thing with him, just that what that meant was his drive, motivation, and desire to always be better, 24/7. That talent and determination is rare in all aspects of life. Maybe a handful of players ever displayed that with Jordan levels.

Coaching is about balancing different personalities and getting those personalities to gel as a team--exploiting each person properly to make them as effective as they can be. This is why Phil Jackson was a brilliant coach. Jordan's problem is that he will never understand why no other player will play to his level, because I feel like that is where he starts with assumptions.

The only players I can think of that had decent if not great success coaching...Larry Bird for a brief spell, and of course Bill Russell--bear in mind, though. Russell was also playing at the same time, and playing/coaching with Hall of Famers.

 

[zinfamous]

All-Time Starting 5

PG: Magic Johnson
SG: Michael Jordan
SF: LeBron James
PF: Tim Duncan
C: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Center is probably the toughest one to decide.

that's true. I'd probably put Kareem in there, too, simply because the hook is completely indefensible. tough to not consider Wilt or Bill, though.

other problem is that teams like this are generally based on numbers on the court. These teams aren't always that great--conflicting personalities. The first problem with this one--who is the floor leader? Magic or Jordan? huge problem here.

...Especially with Lebron crying like a little bitch all the time. shit....just toss Lebron out. he has no business being on the court with these guys.
Someone like Grant Hill in his position would make that team much better.

 

[Vdubchaos]

that's true. I'd probably put Kareem in there, too, simply because the hook is completely indefensible. tough to not consider Wilt or Bill, though.

other problem is that teams like this are generally based on numbers on the court. These teams aren't always that great--conflicting personalities. The first problem with this one--who is the floor leader? Magic or Jordan? huge problem here.

...Especially with Lebron crying like a little bitch all the time. shit....just toss Lebron out. he has no business being on the court with these guys.
Someone like Grant Hill in his position would make that team much better.

I would pick Larry, Pippen, Julius, Wilkins amongst few others over James ANY day of the week.

And those guys actually played against the greats!!!

Sure James is a great player but when you consider people he plays against, he would be considered average in the 80s/90s (at best)

 

[Blackjack200]

I find the argument that Lebron playing at the top of his game is ever better than Jordan ever was to be rather specious.

I would agree to the extent that the argument is framed as a Lebron vs. Jordan argument. Right now (and probably still in ten years) Jordan is the better player. He is the greatest player of all time, and for Lebron to approach him would require so many years of elite play that it's not worth speculating because it's so unlikely.

But, I think it's okay to look at the season LeBron had and wonder where it ranks among the greatest individual seasons of all time.

 

[DesiPower]

What's he gonna say in his next interview? Sun rises from the east? earth is round? Water is wet?

 

[zinfamous]

I would pick Larry, Pippen, Julius, Wilkins amongst few others over James ANY day of the week.

And those guys actually played against the greats!!!

Sure James is a great player but when you consider people he plays against, he would be considered average in the 80s/90s (at best)

damn, I forgot about Dr J. really, Lebron over Dr J??

don't make me laugh....And I would certainly pick all of those over Lebron on such a team.

Bird is a solid no-brainer. ...maybe Pippen would be best, though, due to being well-rehearsed in role-playing.

 

[zinfamous]

I would agree to the extent that the argument is framed as a Lebron vs. Jordan argument. Right now (and probably still in ten years) Jordan is the better player. He is the greatest player of all time, and for Lebron to approach him would require so many years of elite play that it's not worth speculating because it's so unlikely.

But, I think it's okay to look at the season LeBron had and wonder where it ranks among the greatest individual seasons of all time.

Oscar Robertson still has the greatest individual season of all time.

:thumbsup:

 

[Zargon]

Oh yeah? How did Pippen do the year Jordan was gone?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottie_Pippen#Pippen_without_Jordan_.281993.E2.80.9395.29



not bad. the bulls didnt seemingly add any talent to fill the MJ gap and pippen picked up the slack

he didnt do so well when he left he bulls to be with other super stars though

 

[vi edit]

The only players I can think of that had decent if not great success coaching...Larry Bird for a brief spell, and of course Bill Russell--bear in mind, though. Russell was also playing at the same time, and playing/coaching with Hall of Famers.

Doc Rivers and Jerry Sloan have to be mentioned. Rick Carlisle to a degree to.

 

[zinfamous]

Doc Rivers and Jerry Sloan have to be mentioned. Rick Carlisle to a degree to.

they are/were good. Was Jerry Sloan a superstar/Hall of Famer as a player? I don't really recall....


I'm somewhat familiar with Doc Rivers' more recent success, but I haven't really paid much attention to the NBA in the last decade or more. It is a terrible game, now.

 

[Childs]

All-Time Starting 5

PG: Magic Johnson
SG: Michael Jordan
SF: LeBron James
PF: Tim Duncan
C: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Center is probably the toughest one to decide.

No Larry Bird? I think when its all said and done, Lebron will replace Magic on your list. He's already a more skilled version of Magic, just not the leader or winner that Magic was. Time will tell, but if my life depended on it, I'm taking Magic without hesitation. I also would replace Duncan with Olajuwon, and replace Kareem with Wilt.

Magic
Jordan
Bird
Olajuwon
Wilt

Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Rick Barry deserve to at least be coming off the bench. Kobe should be on the team, but I guess to me he is one of those guys you'd rather beat than win with.

 

[zinfamous]

No Larry Bird? I think when its all said and done, Lebron will replace Magic on your list. He's already a more skilled version of Magic, just not the leader or winner that Magic was. Time will well, but if my life depended on it, I'm taking Magic without hesitation. I also would replace Duncan with Olajuwon, and replace Kareem with Wilt.

Magic
Jordan
Bird
Olajuwon
Wilt

Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Rick Barry deserve to at least be coming off the bench. Kobe should be on the team, but I guess to me he is one of those guys you'd rather beat than win with.

Hmm..I wanted to consider Olajuwan as well, but didn't consider putting him in at PF. I like that...

It's also funny that those starters were playing at the to top their game and owning the league at relatively the same time--Bird and Magic a bit earlier than Jordan and Olajuwan, but it shows how most people here are strongly influenced by that era.