Phage , the virus that cures

Discussion in 'Highly Technical' started by William Gaatjes, Oct 10, 2009.

  1. William Gaatjes

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    The example is not a fair one.
    The reaction of the immune system damages the cornea because the surrounding tissue is infected by the bacteria.
    It is the "chronic" extreme inflammation that causes the blindness.
    Thus a temporary infection causes damage but not blindness. A chronic infection causes blindness. Would that not account as an inability of the immune system to get rid of the pathogen ?
    I can understand that an immune suppression might be handy here, but only with a treatment to get rid of the bacteria.
    Nevertheless, that is quite an interesting bacteria indeed.

    Microfilariae are simply put, the "baby" nematodes.

    I meant more that instead of suppressing the immune system, we should figure out why it is that it is so reactive. Of course suppression is a good thing. But your example reminds of pushing the brakes while also flooring the gas pedal at the same time. It is better to find the reason why the gas pedal is down then just to hit the brakes and hope that it works. Too many side effects will happen.






    Oh lord, i used a car analogy... o_O
    I am doomed forever... :'(
     
    #226 William Gaatjes, Aug 27, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2012
  2. Gibsons

    Gibsons Lifer

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    It's completely fair. Why is it that some people go blind from the infection, and some don't?
     
    #227 Gibsons, Aug 27, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2012
  3. William Gaatjes

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    That is a lot of variables. I will have to think about that.
    Normally a lot of those variables would just pop up in my mind. The big picture and i could "zoom in" on all details of "the big picture". But not for a while anymore... :(

    All will go well, i will have my new house soon, outside the city. ^_^
    I can have proper night sleeps again, not interrupted every 2 to 3 hours because of my mentally challenged paranoid sociopath neighbors and their mentally challenged kids. And that means i will be able to use lucid dreaming (conscious dreaming) once again.
    I am tired.
    At the moment, i cannot answer your question besides giving standard variables...

    Difference in genetic make up.
    Difference in environment.
    Difference in amount of pathogens received and difference in order of acquired infections .
    Difference in acquired immunity and difference in the order of acquired immunity.
    Difference in feeding habits.
    Difference in exposure to toxins (high doses acute exposure and low doses chronic exposure).
    Having multiple infections simultaneously but different in amount and type of pathogens.
    Difference in epigenetic background.
    Difference in character or personality (susceptibility to stress).
    Difference in the family gut bacteria.

    Some are related yet different.
     
    #228 William Gaatjes, Aug 27, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2012
  4. Gibsons

    Gibsons Lifer

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    It's all about immune suppression. A strong inflammatory reaction to the infection = blindness. A suppressed, less inflammatory reaction = no blindness.

    My recollection is that the people who don't go blind show a large increase in IL-10 at the crucial time. IL-10 inhibits a lot of immune processes. I don't think anyone knows why people show different IL-10 responses though.
     
  5. William Gaatjes

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    That is interesting. There are parasites that are able to also suppress the immune system but i have no idea if the Inter-leukine 10 mechanism is used.
    Most use a mechanism where the parasite is recognized as if it is a normal body tissue. I think by expressing something on the outer shell ?
    After some quick look up, i get the impression that IL-10 is a sort of main suppressor switch. Very powerful and versatile it seems.
    I think it makes sense that the people who have a lot of IL-10 at the moment of requiring the river blindness disease, already carry some sort of infection from a pathogen. Or acute at the same time or chronic.
    It makes sense that a pathogen would produce as much IL-10 as possible or at least is able to influence some process required to produce IL-10 for survival benefits. Is there not some problem with death of b cells or some type of immune cell that produces large amounts of IL-10 as side effect or as deliberate action ?

    Perhaps the advantage in the cases of people with massive amounts of IL-10 is an inverse effect. An infection of pathogen X induces large amounts of IL-10 and thus prevents massive inflammatory reactions produced by dying baby nematodes and releasing the wolbachia bacteria.

    The big question is, what happens when the wolbachia bacteria can roam around freely when the immune system is suppressed to much ?
     
  6. Gibsons

    Gibsons Lifer

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    Pathogens don't make IL-10, it's a human gene. EBV encodes BCRF1, which is an IL10 mimic. Maybe to suppress Th1 responses, also maybe just to extend its host cells (B cells) life.

    People would die in that case. That's AIDS level suppression, not high levels of IL-10 suppression.
     
  7. William Gaatjes

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    You are right. I meant indirectly but wrote it wrong. I was thinking more in the idea of that the pathogen itself does not produce IL-10. But invokes by infection and hijacking cells and the cells biomolecular machinery to produce large amounts of IL-10, purposefully or as side effect.

    Hm, ach so.
    Maybe there is something you know and could tell me about it.
    From addiction and ratmodels and i assume research on humans, it is known that in the brain certain receptors are reduced in number when exposed to and activated often with large amount of neurotransmitters or chemicals that can also bind to these receptors.

    It is just a wild guess, just an idea. This is not proven or researched for as far as i know, i had to think about it while in public transport.
    But assume this scenario :
    Because of some acquired pathogen (possible chronic infection without apparent illness or symptoms), the cells are constantly exposed to large amounts of IL-10. Thus the amount of IL-10 receptors on immune system cells would become reduced over time to prevent extreme suppression reactions, the opposite effect of auto immunity.
    What would happen is that the immune system becomes to aggressive and is not controlled the right way. Because of the reduced numbers of receptors.
    And that is perhaps what we now see as auto immunity. The down regulation of the strength of a given amount of IL-10.

    The other cells start to produce more and more IL-10 needed to create the same response. Now that is a paradox. The amount of receptors have been reduced thus more of IL-10 would not have the desired effect. Unless it is specific for certain locations and tissues in the body.

    Somewhere there is a control system that monitors the amount of receptors and the correct molecules that bind to it. For some reason, i am sure, that there is the problem of auto immunity. That is, if the immune system also has the ability just as neurons to control the amount of receptors for given cytokines.

    What do you think about such a scenario ,Gibsons ?
    Has there ever been such research ?
     
    #232 William Gaatjes, Aug 28, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2012
  8. Gibsons

    Gibsons Lifer

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    afaik, few or no immune receptors work like that - the receptor isn't downregulated in response to its ligand. There might be an exceptions.

    More likely is that a problem with (a lack of) IL-10 production or IL-10 signalling would lead to autoimmunity. Autoimmunity is still poorly understood, though there's mountainous amounts of data on it. There are genetic and environmental factors in play for many of them.

    My prediction is that someone who produced too much IL-10 over a long time would be mostly normal, but very sensitive to viral and some other infections. They might have severe allergies too, but I'm unsure on that.

    Gross overgeneralization: Immune signalling often involves positive feedback loops, e.g. cell x activates cell y, which in turn activates cell x to better activate cell y. There's some mechanism(s) in place to put the brakes on this. IL-10 would be one of those brakes.
     
  9. William Gaatjes

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    Something about biotin shortage.
    I was making a potato recipe , (will post pictures later in a off topic thread).
    And was reading about if i had to peel a potato. Because i know that under the peel of the potato amounts of solanin are produced. And solanine is a poison to humans and even deathly in large amounts (more then 100mg).
    Thus i did a little background reading and found out that i only have to worry about potatoes with green spots on the peel and when the potato starts to develop. Then the amount of solanine is something to worry about.

    But this thread is really about biotin.
    In a potato, biotin can also be found. And biotin is very important.
    Make sure you have sufficient production of biotin.
    If not, you may end up going bald, end up with dermatitis or end up with nervous system issues.

    A healthy person has enough biotin. But when the flora and fauna inside the gut is not balanced, in a rare situation biotin deficiency may occur.
    Our little friends inside the intestines, the bacteria produce biotin in large quantities. Unless something is going wrong.
    Or when you start to consume large amounts of raw eggs. Avidin is a protein that...
    Well, read it for yourself if you are interested...
    I have to look at my potatoes and i am busy packing. :p



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biotin
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avidin

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solanine
     
    #234 William Gaatjes, Sep 16, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2012
  10. William Gaatjes

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    A lot of people suffer from diabetes mellitus type 2. Now researches have found that an unbalance of the bacteria in the intestines might also be a cause or maybe even the cause. Unfortunately, it is not mentioned which bacteria are the cause of such problems. Also, the question arises if these bacteria are naturally present but in a certain amount and that a bad high sugar diet could cause certain bacteria species to expand to much in numbers. Creating the unbalance of life inside the intestines. I do wonder if there also live fungi inside the intestines. I do remember we carry fungi with us, that is normally taken care of by the immune system. But i could be mistaken...

    http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-09-gut-bacteria-diabetes.html

     
  11. William Gaatjes

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    More news from the research front of epigenetics :


    http://phys.org/news/2012-09-scientists-link-players-epigenetic-code.html


    [​IMG]
    Mouse embryonic stem cells (blue, green) lose DNA methylation (red) in the absence of UHRF1. Credit: Strahl Lab, UNC School of Medicine


    It becomes more and more clear, that there are some serious implications that ultimately will ask society to make some changes to ensure health. But the less sick people are, the higher the efficiency. Just a simple headache can make the difference in having a "eureka" moment and finding a novel solution to a problem when needed or working days at an end with overtime trying to solve a problem that seems just so hard because of concentration problems...
     
    #236 William Gaatjes, Oct 1, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2012
  12. William Gaatjes

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    Yay. I am slowly starting to adapt to my new surroundings.
    Thus, slowly i am posting into this forum again.

    The article is an interesting find, it is from march this year but i forgot to post it. Has anybody read about the research conducted after to confirm the results from this research ?

    http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-03-cancer-genes-differ-tumour.html

     
  13. Mr. Pedantic

    Mr. Pedantic Diamond Member

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    That's actually really interesting, because in med school we were always taught that all the cells in a particular cancer were clones of each other. That obviously had implications in terms of treatment: as the article points out, we assumed that a single biopsy would be representative of all the cells in the tumour, and therefore that a treatment for one cell would be effective in general against all cells in the tumour.
     
  14. William Gaatjes

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    It sure is interesting. With hindsight, it makes sense that the cells comprising a tumor (with mutated dna for whatever reason) keep mutating, since the whole regulating mechanism to correct the dna and apoptosis (programmed cell death) no longer functions. But i am happy that this kind of research keeps continuing. Also, read the next post. It is most interesting.
     
  15. William Gaatjes

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    When it comes to becoming fat, there might be another reason to watch the diet. It seems that we have bacteria in our intestines that help us absorb fats. Firmicutes is the bacteria family.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmicutes

    This article is about zebrafish, but humans also carry Firmicutes in the intestines. Of course it is a large family and it says nothing about specific bacteria families.
    It is an interesting idea, that consuming a lot of fat, will also increase the amount of bacteria that help consume fat more easy. This will lead to an increased absorption of fats. This might very well be a part of the puzzle why some people gain weight quickly to a higher fat percentage, while others seem to be unaffected. A sort of avalanching effect. Might be an epigenetic effect here as well. Might also explain why some people seem so muscled but cannot stand the cold while others seem to increase weight quickly because of increasing fat storage. Might be an evolutionary / epigenetic effect against a cold environment.
    The only problems is there are many different kinds of fat.

    Well, read for yourself...
    http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-09-gut-bacteria-fat-absorption.html

     
    #240 William Gaatjes, Dec 31, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2012
  16. William Gaatjes

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    This is interesting research. Is there also not a possibility that MS is a pathogen derived disease ? The Epstein-Barr virus ? There has been research going on linking the EBV virus to MS. Could this also not be a very complex effect where the cause is molecular mimicry ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_mimicry

    http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-01-multiple-sclerosis-reveals-killer-cells.html


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]




    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epstein–Barr_virus


    P.S.
    There is also research suggesting a link between oligodendrocytes and EBV infection.
     
    #241 William Gaatjes, Jan 12, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2013
  17. William Gaatjes

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    With respect to the link of obesity and pathogens in post240...

    The adenovirus AD36 seems to be able to increase the amount of bodyfat. Antibodies against the virus has been found in obese individuals.
    However, this is not solid evidence of course. The host must still consume more calories than needed. Or can the virus cause an effect where already present body tissues are converted to fat ? Interesting ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infectobesity

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AD-36
     
    #242 William Gaatjes, Jan 14, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2013
  18. William Gaatjes

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    Bacteria are amazing. Using laws of nature to their advantage.

    This particular bacterial family has the ability to form magnetite and are called magnetotactic bacteria.
    And use these magnetite crystals to find their way through their surroundings by use of the Earth magnetic field.

    [​IMG]
    On the left side of the bacteria, you can see the magnetic particles.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetotactic_bacteria

    http://phys.org/news/2012-11-video-article-purify-magnetic-bacteria.html

     
  19. William Gaatjes

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    For those interested, humans also seem to have a tiny amount of magnetite in the Ethmoid bone. a bone structure between the eyes and behind the nose.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethmoid_bone


    [​IMG]



    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/11/17/the_odd_body_nose_compass/
     
  20. William Gaatjes

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    Scientists have developed an amazing way to trick iron oxidizing bacteria to consume electrons (and CO2) to replicate.
    But what is really interesting, is the ability to harvest the electrons from the electrode. I do wonder if the material, the electrode itself is made of, also plays a part in the whole process.


    http://phys.org/news/2013-01-scientists-iron-eating-bacteria-electrons.html

     
    #245 William Gaatjes, Jan 29, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  21. Mr. Pedantic

    Mr. Pedantic Diamond Member

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    Speaking of, I thought you might be interested in this.
     
  22. William Gaatjes

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    Ah thank you. I will read it with a lot of interest. Unfortunately, the link to the video in the first post is no longer working but the documentary is available on youtube.

    More revealing news how viruses can play a role in developing cancer.
    And how a virus might play a role in developing fetuses and epilepsy during childhood.

    http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-01-scientists-cancer-causing-virus-brain-potential.html

    A TED talk about bacteriophages and applied aspects.
     
    #247 William Gaatjes, Jan 30, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
  23. William Gaatjes

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    More news about epigenetics and how it affects onset puberty in females.
    It becomes more and more clear how the environment can alter the development of humans by influencing the activity of genes that are "executed" in parallel. Thereby having significant effects "under the hood" .


    http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-01-epigenetics-early-onset-puberty-females.html




    This thread is becoming quite the library. ^_^
     
  24. William Gaatjes

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    More news about plasmids and a very special enzyme named : "Nicking enzyme or NES". In this article, it is described how the researchers have discovered how one of the most antibiotic resistant bacteria performs it's magic...


    What is a nicking enzyme ?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicking_enzyme
    http://phys.org/news/2013-01-scientists-unveil-staphyloccocus-aureus-superbug.html

     
  25. Gibsons

    Gibsons Lifer

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    The 'nicking' enzymes are also called "relaxases," because the nick causes a plasmid, normally supercoiled, to move to the open circle/relaxed state. They've been known about for decades (see: F', F+ etc).

    Pretty cool they've solved a structure, but don't hold your breath waiting for a specific inhibitor.
     
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