PFC Bradley Manning pleads guilty in WikiLeaks case (no plea bargain), facing 20 yrs

[Moonbeam]

EagleKeeper: the confession matters not.

The fact that he broke his word and released classified documents is the issue from my POV.

M: Isn't that what he confessed to? Isn't a confession an admission of guilt? How does that not matter?

EK: He knew in advance he was doing something wrong.

M: You do not seem to understand that nobody ever does what they think is wrong.

EK: The government had the evidence; pleading guilty may prevent a longer sentence than what he received.

M: It also a bribe the government offers to prevent any doubt that the evidence may fail at trial.

EK: If his release of data creates another death - he is alone responsible for that one.

M: That can't be so. He is a prisoner and it will take some third party to kill. Surely they will have guilt too.

CK: Two wrongs do not make a right.

M: So why do we execute people? And you deny the reality that often one has to chose between evils.

 

[Moonbeam]

Maybe you should recall that the documents included Afghanistan. Do you care to reconsider your question?

Since we are leaving in 2014 regardless of what we achieved, it would seem obvious that we should have never gone in on the ground in the first place. But the question stands because nothing is changed by a second war that can't be disentangled from the other.

 

[EagleKeeper]

EagleKeeper: the confession matters not.

The fact that he broke his word and released classified documents is the issue from my POV.

M: Isn't that what he confessed to? Isn't a confession an admission of guilt?
Some want to say that his incarceration is what caused the guilty plea. How does that not matter? He chose to not stand trial. Either way admission or conviction - he is/was guilty

EK: He knew in advance he was doing something wrong.

M: You do not seem to understand that nobody ever does what they think is wrong.
He had previously signed documents indicating that he knew the rules for the release and handling of classified documents.

EK: The government had the evidence; pleading guilty may prevent a longer sentence than what he received.
If he felt that he was not guilty, he should have taken the court martial and had the government prove that he did not handle the documents properly; that he released them to unauthorized people

M: It also a bribe the government offers to prevent any doubt that the evidence may fail at trial.
the government had the evidence - if they did not; then he would know it and taken the CM to clear his name

EK: If his release of data creates another death - he is alone responsible for that one.

M: That can't be so. He is a prisoner and it will take some third party to kill. Surely they will have guilt too.
When the third party is using information released; the other person has the same responsibility.
Example: Just like a death while in the commission of a felony. The get-away driver is held just as responsible as the killer and anyone else that participated in the felony.

CK: Two wrongs do not make a right.

M: So why do we execute people? And you deny the reality that often one has to chose between evils
You are now implying that executing a person who has killed is wrong.
I have never stated that

Answers in bold

 

[EagleKeeper]

Since we are leaving in 2014 regardless of what we achieved, it would seem obvious that we should have never gone in on the ground in the first place. But the question stands because nothing is changed by a second war that can't be disentangled from the other.

We will be out of Afghanistan in 2014 just like we are out of Iraq.

 

[Moonbeam]

EagleKeeper: the confession matters not.

The fact that he broke his word and released classified documents is the issue from my POV.

M: Isn't that what he confessed to? Isn't a confession an admission of guilt?

EK: Some want to say that his incarceration is what caused the guilty plea. How does that not matter? He chose to not stand trial. Either way admission or conviction - he is/was guilty

M: Here we go with 'he chose' again. One can be guilty by plea or conviction and still not be guilty.
-------------
EK: He knew in advance he was doing something wrong.

M: You do not seem to understand that nobody ever does what they think is wrong.
He had previously signed documents indicating that he knew the rules for the release and handling of classified documents.

EK: The government had the evidence; pleading guilty may prevent a longer sentence than what he received.
If he felt that he was not guilty, he should have taken the court martial and had the government prove that he did not handle the documents properly; that he released them to unauthorized people

M: How does should enter into any of this? He pled to releasing documents to unauthorized people. Isn't that what Daniel Elsburg did? You believe that if one is guilty of facts that means guilty of real crime.

M: It also a bribe the government offers to prevent any doubt that the evidence may fail at trial.

EK: the government had the evidence - if they did not; then he would know it and taken the CM to clear his name

M: You are stuck of the law equating to crime.
---------
EK: If his release of data creates another death - he is alone responsible for that one.

M: That can't be so. He is a prisoner and it will take some third party to kill. Surely they will have guilt too.

EK: When the third party is using information released; the other person has the same responsibility.

Example: Just like a death while in the commission of a felony. The get-away driver is held just as responsible as the killer and anyone else that participated in the felony.

M: Thank you, he alone will not be the only one guilty.
----------------

CK: Two wrongs do not make a right.

M: So why do we execute people? And you deny the reality that often one has to chose between evils

EK: You are now implying that executing a person who has killed is wrong.
I have never stated that

M: I said it. And you did not answer about two evils.

 

[EagleKeeper]

I answered about the evil,/wrongs.

Associated the two words together based on the flow of the conversation

 

[Thump553]

Very interesting situation because (a) there is no plea bargain and (b) he didn't plead to the most serious charge against him, which the government is not dropping. It's like he has given the government a case they cannot lose.

I don't really understand Bradley's strategy and I'm sure his attorneys were vehemently opposed to this plea.

 

[ivwshane]

I haven't been following the details of the case but what information was leaked that showed the government lying?

 

[werepossum]

Very interesting situation because (a) there is no plea bargain and (b) he didn't plead to the most serious charge against him, which the government is not dropping. It's like he has given the government a case they cannot lose.

I don't really understand Bradley's strategy and I'm sure his attorneys were vehemently opposed to this plea.

Unless it's his attorneys' idea. You're caught dead to rights, no way you'll be found not guilty, so you cop to some of the charges and then insist you're cooperating and if you were guilty of the other charges you'd admit it.

Personally I think twenty years is the absolute least he should do. As a homosexual he didn't fit in (although other homosexuals have fit in just fine) and to punish the military he hurt them as badly as he was able. He violated the letter and the spirit of his oath, with absolutely no thought as to how others would be affected. He deserves everything he gets.

 

[Angry Irishman]

EagleKeeper: the confession matters not.

The fact that he broke his word and released classified documents is the issue from my POV.

M: Isn't that what he confessed to? Isn't a confession an admission of guilt? How does that not matter?

EK: He knew in advance he was doing something wrong.

M: You do not seem to understand that nobody ever does what they think is wrong.

EK: The government had the evidence; pleading guilty may prevent a longer sentence than what he received.

M: It also a bribe the government offers to prevent any doubt that the evidence may fail at trial.

EK: If his release of data creates another death - he is alone responsible for that one.

M: That can't be so. He is a prisoner and it will take some third party to kill. Surely they will have guilt too.

CK: Two wrongs do not make a right.

M: So why do we execute people? And you deny the reality that often one has to chose between evils.

you're either trolling or bat shit crazy.

 

[Thump553]

Unless it's his attorneys' idea. You're caught dead to rights, no way you'll be found not guilty, so you cop to some of the charges and then insist you're cooperating and if you were guilty of the other charges you'd admit it.

Personally I think twenty years is the absolute least he should do. As a homosexual he didn't fit in (although other homosexuals have fit in just fine) and to punish the military he hurt them as badly as he was able. He violated the letter and the spirit of his oath, with absolutely no thought as to how others would be affected. He deserves everything he gets.

No way any remotely competent attorney would advise him to plead guilty to the lesser charges without any agreement on the most serious one and without any agreement as to what he is facing for what he plead to. Even if the government has a rock solid airtight case he gains nothing and stands to lose nothing by forcing the government to prove it's entire case on every charge. In crimminal law there is no such thing as no way you'll be found not guilty (cough, cough, OJ).

BTW, IRC he is facing something like 97 years if convicted of the most serious charge.

 

[Baked]

In the old days, they would've taken him out back and shot him in the head for treason, skipping all this trial crap.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Classified information is that: CLASSIFIED.

It should not be released until properly declassified.

Those that release it should be held accountable by prison and loss of clearances.

One can say how great a program is. One should not reveal technical/operational specs of such that would allow the program to be neutralized.

Some people think themselves above such conditions. Many are politicians/aides :thumbsdown:

So again, where is your faux outrage over classified material being leaked for all the pro-government leaks?

And where is your outrage that these leaks proved the government lied to us? You feel that is OK?

Must be nice to selectively pick and choose what is right and wrong.

 

[Nebor]

In the old days, they would've taken him out back and shot him in the head for treason, skipping all this trial crap.

In the old days they took the digital distribution of classified documents via CDs disguised as Lady Gaga music far more seriously. In the old day.

 

[EagleKeeper]

So again, where is your faux outrage over classified material being leaked for all the pro-government leaks?

And where is your outrage that these leaks proved the government lied to us? You feel that is OK?

Must be nice to selectively pick and choose what is right and wrong.

Who seem to have a selective reading problem. Or go see an eye doctor so you have the ability to see, read and comprehend the first line of an eye chart :hmm:

 

[cybrsage]

CK: Two wrongs do not make a right.

M: So why do we execute people? And you deny the reality that often one has to chose between evils.

Because executing people is not wrong. Thanks for asking so it could be clarified.

 

[cybrsage]

you're either trolling or bat shit crazy.

He is the resident forum poster who is allowed to troll, lie, use scatological insults, and other forum rule violations without having to worry about points or vacations.

 

[airdata]

See ya' later dumbass. Hope your little snit fit tirade was worth the 2 decades in the slammer, plus whatever more time you'll get on the other counts on which you're still facing court martial. That's a lot of time to think about how releasing a bunch of mildly embarrassing but otherwise irrelevant documents did nothing except show how much of a loser you are; influencing neither the war, diplomacy, or senior government policy makers.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/soldier-leaks-meant-enlighten-us-policy-18620188

OP, you sound mad.

 

[airdata]

Originally Posted by EagleKeeper
Classified information is that: CLASSIFIED.

Meh, If my country is overseas blowing up innocent men, women and children I think I have a right to know.

You know... when those guys come to attack us at home it's nice to know real things, real motives instead of having some hack job president try to tell people that they hate our freedom.

I think they hate drone strikes killing their family members more... or things like us giving resources to ' rebels ' to overthrow their governments while at home we outlaw people's right to assembly over OWS.

 

[cybrsage]

Meh, If my country is overseas blowing up innocent men, women and children I think I have a right to know.

But you do not, due to things being classified. It is a tough line to keep, the need to protect information and people and the need to keep the citizens informed so we can better control our own government.

I think they hate drone strikes killing their family members more... or things like us giving resources to ' rebels ' to overthrow their governments while at home we outlaw people's right to assembly over OWS.

And abroad we execute US Citizens for suspected crimes without due process as required by the Constitution.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Bradley knew what he was doing violated the UCMJ (The UCMJ is beat into your head from day 1 in bootcamp) and if he was caught he would pay a huge price. He will now reap what he sowed.

As for politicians leaking classified material they should be held accountable as well. Too bad politicians aren't bound by the UCMJ and treated accordingly.

 

[unokitty]

In the old days, they would've taken him out back and shot him in the head for treason, skipping all this trial crap.

Manning isn't a crusader for justice. Manning is a screwball.

Even in training, Manning showed an inability to understand his environment.

It can be argued that he never should have been in the Army. It can be further argued that once he got in, if the people training him had integrity, he never would have made it though training.

However, none of that is relevant.

He took an oath to be bound by the UCMJ. He didn't have too... But he did.

With his 'gender confusion' he didn't have to stay in the army. But he did.

He didn't have to download and distribute hundreds of thousands of classified documents, but he did.

Now, the military has an obligation to judge his actions according to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. And they will.

Anyone thinking otherwise is, like Manning, failing to understand the environment our military operates within.

Uno

 

[Chuck_v]

I offer these rules to the POS, first never drop your soap in the shower and second see the first rule. Other than that maggot you are going to love the nightly conjugal visits from the physically bigger maggots.

 

[Chuck_v]

Meh, If my country is overseas blowing up innocent men, women and children I think I have a right to know.

You know... when those guys come to attack us at home it's nice to know real things, real motives instead of having some hack job president try to tell people that they hate our freedom.

I think they hate drone strikes killing their family members more... or things like us giving resources to ' rebels ' to overthrow their governments while at home we outlaw people's right to assembly over OWS.

They hate infidels you moron.

 

[Jaepheth]

Pretty sure she prefers to be called Breanna.