Personal property taxes on my business due by September 14th and

[michal1980]

That would be a valid objection if estate taxes were 100% with no exemptions. Which, of course, they are not.

But many conservatives want them to be 0%.

You cannot be in favor of no estate taxes and also claim to value meritocracy.



I didn't ask you -- I already know what to expect from your type.

The emphasis on the word "that" in the sentence makes clear that the word doesn't refer to the business someone built. It's flatly obvious, and if you won't or can't admit it, that's just evidence of your own mental limitations.

My type?

As opposed to what? Your type. The massaih loving, cannot do no wrong, will brownnoser for him till the end of time type?

 

[Bowfinger]

Man, you've got your panties in a really big knot. That's not good for you. Go outside and enjoy the day!

Really, that's still the best retort you can offer? Still lame, still empty, still dumb. Just like your OP. And your continuing phony outrage.

It is fun to see we're striking a nerve, however. Even more fun to see how totally incapable you are of substantive, on-topic rebuttal. Just little schoolyard retorts. Lulz.

 

[Bowfinger]

My type?

As opposed to what? Your type. The massaih [sic] loving, cannot do no [sic] wrong, will brownnoser [sic] for him till [sic] the end of time type?

Public education, I take it?

 

[Bowfinger]

So what if it's 50%? 75%? Whatever that rate is, the higher you make it, the more you take money away from those who worked for it to hand it over to someone else. Why should people work hard to create something of value if they can't hand it to their children? ...

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. You don't understand it and will never accept it, but your ideology here is inevitably destructive to American democracy, if allowed to continue unabated for a few generations. Inheritance taxes are absolutely necessary to a healthy capitalist democracy.

 

[First]

so when will the left learn to comprehend?

lol troll. You wingnuts always do shrivel up when confronted face-to-face about this stuff.

 

[michal1980]

lol troll. You wingnuts always do shrivel up when confronted face-to-face about this stuff.

the majority of the wingnuts in this thread are on the left.

 

[boomerang]

the majority of the wingnuts in this thread are on the left.

Don't rain on their parade. The "discussion" isn't going their way and as is typical, they have declared themselves the winners. Just let them think they've won. We do it all the time. It helps keep the peace.

 

[berzerker60]

So what if it's 50%? 75%? Whatever that rate is, the higher you make it, the more you take money away from those who worked for it to hand it over to someone else. Why should people work hard to create something of value if they can't hand it to their children?

Conversely, you can't be in favor of estate taxes and also claim to value freedom. If someone makes money and leaves it to their kids, their kids benefit from their parents hard work. Nothing wrong with that, each person should decide who they want to benefit from their labor. The fruits of my labor should not go to the government to decide who should benefit from my work.

Everyone already gets taxed on the money they earn. It doesn't need to be taxed again when the person turns around and leaves it to their children.

The concept of people succeeding based on merit is fine and all, but not at the expense of taking it away from the people who earn it to give to those who didn't.

This can't be a serious objection. Why should people work hard to get rich if they can only pass enough on to their kids to ensure the kids never lack for the slightest material need (unless they're idiots)? Well, there's the cars, houses, fancy foods and drinks, vacations, multiple homes, glory of self-funded political campaigns, better health care, potentially the joy of charity and seeing your money do good in the world, the best education possible for their kids. You might not believe this, but there are hardworking rich people who don't have kids at all! Yet for some reason they get rich anyway.

The parents are now dead. The only thing the kids did to "earn" their parents' money was get born. They're still keeping whatever the exemption is, which is a very large amount of money, as well as the immeasurable advantages of quality educations, networking with other power elites, and hopefully their parents have instilled the values of hard work that got them there in the first place.

But imagine if the estate tax above, say, $5million, WAS 100%. What are people going to do? Aside from tax avoidance, my guess is they'll donate to charities of their choice rather than give it to the tax man, which benefits everyone. Possibly they'll spend more during their lifetimes, circulating money back into the economy and adding some small amount of reality to trickle-down theories. Maybe they'll create jobs and pay their employees well, since they can't take it with them. Or, maybe they'll just let the government spend it, where it can go to any number of good programs that help millions. Look at the examples of the robber barons of our own history - they raised huge amounts of money in their lives, then spent it on the Rockefeller Foundation, University of Chicago, libraries across the country, and other programs that have done enormous good for the entire world.

Yes, I want to be able to set my kids off on the right path, and that's why we need an exemption. We don't need more Paris Hiltons in the world.

 

[werepossum]

This can't be a serious objection. Why should people work hard to get rich if they can only pass enough on to their kids to ensure the kids never lack for the slightest material need (unless they're idiots)? Well, there's the cars, houses, fancy foods and drinks, vacations, multiple homes, glory of self-funded political campaigns, better health care, potentially the joy of charity and seeing your money do good in the world, the best education possible for their kids. You might not believe this, but there are hardworking rich people who don't have kids at all! Yet for some reason they get rich anyway.

The parents are now dead. The only thing the kids did to "earn" their parents' money was get born. They're still keeping whatever the exemption is, which is a very large amount of money, as well as the immeasurable advantages of quality educations, networking with other power elites, and hopefully their parents have instilled the values of hard work that got them there in the first place.

But imagine if the estate tax above, say, $5million, WAS 100%. What are people going to do? Aside from tax avoidance, my guess is they'll donate to charities of their choice rather than give it to the tax man, which benefits everyone. Possibly they'll spend more during their lifetimes, circulating money back into the economy and adding some small amount of reality to trickle-down theories. Maybe they'll create jobs and pay their employees well, since they can't take it with them. Or, maybe they'll just let the government spend it, where it can go to any number of good programs that help millions. Look at the examples of the robber barons of our own history - they raised huge amounts of money in their lives, then spent it on the Rockefeller Foundation, University of Chicago, libraries across the country, and other programs that have done enormous good for the entire world.

Yes, I want to be able to set my kids off on the right path, and that's why we need an exemption. We don't need more Paris Hiltons in the world.

Judging from Great Britain's experience, the very wealthy will simply leave long before the estate tax nears 100%, to a more friendly clime. Money is ultimately very versatile as to location.

Beyond that, some of us are still old enough and/or moral enough to not accept "What are people going to do?" as an excuse to take their stuff. Might does not make right, else the thugs on the corner would be justified in taking your cut as soon as government dispensed it. Hey, there are several of them and they've got guns - what are you going to do?

 

[berzerker60]

Judging from Great Britain's experience, the very wealthy will simply leave long before the estate tax nears 100%, to a more friendly clime. Money is ultimately very versatile as to location.

Beyond that, some of us are still old enough and/or moral enough to not accept "What are people going to do?" as an excuse to take their stuff. Might does not make right, else the thugs on the corner would be justified in taking your cut as soon as government dispensed it. Hey, there are several of them and they've got guns - what are you going to do?

If only someone could institute a government deriving its just powers from the consent of the governed, using some mechanism for supporting the decisions of the majority of those citizens such that there was a legitimacy to government policies beyond simple thuggery.

The reasoning isn't "what are they going to do," it's "what's the taxation policy that most benefits society?" Amazingly enough, there are compromises one way or another. Of people to ask sacrifices from, I happen to think that "the dead" are among the least objectionable.

 

[werepossum]

If only someone could institute a government deriving its just powers from the consent of the governed, using some mechanism for supporting the decisions of the majority of those citizens such that there was a legitimacy to government policies beyond simple thuggery.

The reasoning isn't "what are they going to do," it's "what's the taxation policy that most benefits society?" Amazingly enough, there are compromises one way or another. Of people to ask sacrifices from, I happen to think that "the dead" are among the least objectionable.

Good points all. For the record, I have no real problem with progressive taxation, seeing it as a necessary evil. I have a huge problem with high rates (which off the cuff I'd define as government taking more than a quarter of one's earnings) and an even bigger problem with taking money from one person to gift it to another. If the majority is voting to take money from the minority, that to me is not deriving its just powers from the consent of the governed.

 

[fskimospy]

Good points all. For the record, I have no real problem with progressive taxation, seeing it as a necessary evil. I have a huge problem with high rates (which off the cuff I'd define as government taking more than a quarter of one's earnings) and an even bigger problem with taking money from one person to gift it to another. If the majority is voting to take money from the minority, that to me is not deriving its just powers from the consent of the governed.

This statement appears to contradict itself. Progressive taxation by definition takes more from some than others. Since the government provides public goods, you will always have some people enjoying more goods than they put in, thus having money from another 'gifted' to them.

 

[First]

the majority of the wingnuts in this thread are on the left.

Whatever helps you sleep at night, dear.

 

[Bowfinger]

Whatever helps you sleep at night, dear.

Humor him. He's not even educated enough to know "wing-nut" refers to righties. It's "moonbat" for lefties.

 

[berzerker60]

Good points all. For the record, I have no real problem with progressive taxation, seeing it as a necessary evil. I have a huge problem with high rates (which off the cuff I'd define as government taking more than a quarter of one's earnings) and an even bigger problem with taking money from one person to gift it to another. If the majority is voting to take money from the minority, that to me is not deriving its just powers from the consent of the governed.

The biggest problem in my eyes is that we can't actually sort out a tax system in a theoretical world that isn't instantly turned around as "class warfare" or "evil conservatives don't care about anyone" or "evil liberals want to take from hard workers for lazy people." In my mind (as some who grew up in a reasonably well off family and fully intends to be quite well off by the time I retire, though I'm not now) the rewards of being rich enough to pay high rates are plenty, and always will be. Material goods are great, but you really only need so much of them. In an article I was reading about Ann Romney convincing Mitt to help with the Olympics, she made basically the same point - he'd made more money than he could ever use already, so did he want to continue making money for its own sake for the rest of his life, or find something to do with his time and talent for the greater good?

Society definitely needs to have big rewards at the top to encourage hard work and some risk taking, but there were obscenely rich people back when our top tax bracket was above 90% (during a period of some of our greatest economic growth, incidentally) and estate taxes were much, much higher. People still invested their money when capital gains taxes were much, much higher, because of course they will, it's still more money just for sacrificing a little liquidity.

Meanwhile there's crushing poverty in this country, despite our enormous collective wealth, and some of the worst health care stats outside of the third world. Cuba has better infant mortality and lifespan stats than us. Despite growing productivity and much shorter vacation hours than elsewhere in the world, our workers have seen a DECREASE in their real wages for decades now, with all of the economic growth going to the top wage earners. Something's wrong with the system - people doing a better job with better technology in a growing economy shouldn't be continually worse off. If there was some kind of non-governmental solution to these systematic issues, I'd love to hear them, because I definitely agree even progressive taxation is an awkward tool that will always have some unhappy consequences even when it works. There was no "free market solution" to the monopoly trusts of the 19th century, though, and I'm not sure there's one for our growing economic problems today.

 

[boomerang]

Wow, I'm starting to see why the progs are getting so worked up about Obama speaking his true thoughts. There appears to be a movement of sorts that has started up centered around the words "You didn't build that". I'm seeing illustrations, photos and videos all over the internet.

Maybe a majority is not ready for collectivism? Maybe a majority is not looking forward to a second term of "more flexibility"?

It's been said that a gaffe is when a politician tells the truth. When Obama goes off script, his true thoughts come out. I'm glad he can't keep it all bottled up all the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzZ0XNptRMA&feature=player_embedded

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/bristolpalin/2012/07/i-built-this-mr-president/

 

[Matt1970]

Lets also not forget that the vast majority of people are employed by businesses. People paid the taxes to build those bridges and roads from the money they made working for that business, so ya, if you own a business you did build that Mr President.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Wow, I'm starting to see why the progs are getting so worked up about Obama speaking his true thoughts.

They're not getting worked up over him "speaking his true thoughts". They're getting worked up over dishonest people deliberately distorting his words.

There appears to be a movement of sorts that has started up centered around the words "You didn't build that". I'm seeing illustrations, photos and videos all over the internet.

LOL. Yes, it's called an "Internet meme". It has about as much meaning as the similar memes featuring Romney on an Etch-a-Sketch, or him mispelling "Amercia".

Maybe a majority is not ready for collectivism? Maybe a majority is not looking forward to a second term of "more flexibility"?

Maybe you pulled all of this out of your ass?

It's been said that a gaffe is when a politician tells the truth.

Sometimes true. But in the modern world, a gaffe also occurs when a politician says something that can be distorted by being taken out of context by dishonest jerks.

For example, Romney saying "I'm not concerned about the very poor". Many people used this to try to dishonestly claim that Romney doesn't care about the poor at all, when he actually said it with a specific context. That was dishonest in pretty much the same way that people like you are being dishonest about what Obama said and meant.

 

[Matt1970]

They're not getting worked up over him "speaking his true thoughts". They're getting worked up over dishonest people deliberately distorting his words.

It doesn't matter which way you interpret it they are both wrong.

 

[Jhhnn]

Your problem, boomerang, is that you're under-connected & under-capitalized, and also that your business model probably sucks, too.

Study the Bain way, emulate their methods. Round up some S American investors, members of that part of the world's lootocracy. Set up offshore investment vehicles in tax havens to channel their money into this country, which you use to buy & then loot American companies, fleece American investors in the process, too.

As a PEG manager, your personal tax rate will be unbelievably low, and you can push your own money offshore to hide it from the IRS at the same time.

I'm sure that if you & your fellow travelers can elect Mitt, he'll work very, very hard to help you accomplish the same feats. Well, except that you're not already rich & well connected, are you? Too bad- so sad. As Mitt would say in a candid moment, expressing that famous compassion of conservatism- "Sucks to be You."

He and his friends in Congress are working hard to "broaden the tax base", something I suspect you support. It gives you something to look forward to- having your rectum stretched by people who really know how to get 'er done.

Just remember- It's all Obama's fault. Everything. He's really the Anti-Christ, with mystical and magical powers of Kenyan time warp mind control because he wasn't born in this country anyway, and because he hates yer freedumbs and makes the baby Jesus cry.

Worship Mitt, because he's everything you want to be, everything you hold sacred, everything that's right about America. He's just wonderful, in the way that only a job killing offshoring tax weasel financial manipulator psychopath can be, and you really want to be him, don't you? Of course you do, but first you have to Believe... believe... Believe!

 

[boomerang]

Your problem, boomerang, is that you're under-connected & under-capitalized, and also that your business model probably sucks, too.

Study the Bain way, emulate their methods. Round up some S American investors, members of that part of the world's lootocracy. Set up offshore investment vehicles in tax havens to channel their money into this country, which you use to buy & then loot American companies, fleece American investors in the process, too.

As a PEG manager, your personal tax rate will be unbelievably low, and you can push your own money offshore to hide it from the IRS at the same time.

I'm sure that if you & your fellow travelers can elect Mitt, he'll work very, very hard to help you accomplish the same feats. Well, except that you're not already rich & well connected, are you? Too bad- so sad. As Mitt would say in a candid moment, expressing that famous compassion of conservatism- "Sucks to be You."

He and his friends in Congress are working hard to "broaden the tax base", something I suspect you support. It gives you something to look forward to- having your rectum stretched by people who really know how to get 'er done.

Just remember- It's all Obama's fault. Everything. He's really the Anti-Christ, with mystical and magical powers of Kenyan time warp mind control because he wasn't born in this country anyway, and because he hates yer freedumbs and makes the baby Jesus cry.

Worship Mitt, because he's everything you want to be, everything you hold sacred, everything that's right about America. He's just wonderful, in the way that only a job killing offshoring tax weasel financial manipulator psychopath can be, and you really want to be him, don't you? Of course you do, but first you have to Believe... believe... Believe!

Thanks for the advice. It's, uh, interesting.

For your sake, I hope Obama wins because I think you're really going to go off the deep end if he doesn't. You sound like you're close right now. Please tell me you haven't been reading any comic books and asking your parents to pay for weaponry.

 

[Incorruptible]

Like what?? seems that telling the truth is the right thing to do?

He is playing class warfare and being wrong

 

[fskimospy]

Thanks for the advice. It's, uh, interesting.

For your sake, I hope Obama wins because I think you're really going to go off the deep end if he doesn't. You sound like you're close right now. Please tell me you haven't been reading any comic books and asking your parents to pay for weaponry.

I'm personally pretty curious on an intellectual level to see what will happen if Obama wins another term. I mean the right has whipped itself up into such a frenzy over Obama, thinking that he's a Muslim infiltrator commie nazi and all. What will that say about America if they re-elect him?

At least liberals have a choice to flee to Europe or Canada or something. American conservatives already live in the furthest right wing industrialized country on Earth by a wide margin. What will they do?

 

[Jhhnn]

Thanks for the advice. It's, uh, interesting.

For your sake, I hope Obama wins because I think you're really going to go off the deep end if he doesn't. You sound like you're close right now. Please tell me you haven't been reading any comic books and asking your parents to pay for weaponry.

Impenetrable & self-sealing denial, with complimentary smear, confirming what you laid out in the OP smear attack.

It's all you've got, apparently all you'll ever have short of some unlikely epiphany.

 

[Jhhnn]

I'm personally pretty curious on an intellectual level to see what will happen if Obama wins another term. I mean the right has whipped itself up into such a frenzy over Obama, thinking that he's a Muslim infiltrator commie nazi and all. What will that say about America if they re-elect him?

At least liberals have a choice to flee to Europe or Canada or something. American conservatives already live in the furthest right wing industrialized country on Earth by a wide margin. What will they do?

Nobody's going anywhere, because nobody wants us, unless we're rich. Which is why the leadership of the Right Fringe feels safe- they're Rich, and they have a lot of alternatives should they finally succeed in looting this country entirely.

The rest of us will need to find a way to get along with each other, even once we're rendered into a third world shithole in the process. Well, provided we cant reverse the process beforehand. That seems tenuous at best, given the delusional tribal headset of most Righties.

For the near term, they'll engage in their usual stupidity, buying more guns out of fear of not being able to buy guns, indulge their fantasies with big scary looking black weapons. They'll rant about gun walking to Mexico, even as they make sure it'll keep happening. They'll carry on about how Patriots need to stage an insurrection against the duly elected govt to protect the Constitution, about ebil big gubmint as they collect red state welfare, medicare, SS, SSDI. They'll rave about deficits while refusing to even contemplate raising taxes, but they'll want their goodies, anyway. They'll claim that laying off gubmint workers will create jobs, and that Mitt offshoring his money means he really believes in America. They'll blame welfare moms for all of the social ills, but they'll make sure she can't get an abortion, or even subsidized birth control. I mean, because they're all sluts, right? Just like Rush says- they deserve to suffer, and their children deserve to suffer, too. They'll wave the flag, insist that we spend money to bomb bridges on the other side of the world rather than build our own, sacrifice enormous treasure & some of their children to see that it gets done.

Their leaders understand them in ways that they don't understand themselves, at all. If they didn't have enemies, they wouldn't have much at all, and they might see what's really wrong with America and with themselves, too. It's how the people they worship so mindlessly help them to keep their minds right...