Personal "cost" of current proposal

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SickBeast
There are two main reasons why healthcare costs too much in the US:

1. The doctors make too much money.

2. The administrative costs are too high.

By going with a socialized system, the doctors will earn way less money, plus it greatly reduces if not eliminates the cost of administration. People like CAD ignorantly use the word "socialism" like it's some sort of evil dirty word. It does have its place. Perhaps CAD has never been laid off before. :light:

No, I am not ignorantly using "socialism". Just because it isn't soviet style doesn't mean that this supposed "reform" isn't the next step towards socialism.

A great many doctors do not make "too much money".

Administrations costs are high in many respects due to Gov't interference and controls.

A "socialized" system may reduce wages(very likely) but one would be a fool to think that somehow Administration costs would be reduced. Hell, there would be a bureaucrat for damn near everything if the Feds took over the whole thing.

Here in Ontario, when you go to the doctor's office, they just swipe your government health insurance card, and that's it you're done. I'm not sure what the costs are at the government level, but it seems very simple and streamlined.

As I said, the cost of healthcare here is cheaper per capita than it is in the US. It is by a significant margin as well. It is to the point that it probably negates any tax advantage the middle class may have in certain parts of the US compared with the parts of Canada that pay higher taxes.

I will tell you, here in Canada people revile "for profit" healthcare way more than you Americans seem to revile "socialized" healthcare. IMO you guys should blow up your current system and start over, modeling it after Canada's system or else that of Norway or France. If it doesn't pan out I'm sure that the doctors would be willing to work in the private sector again.

Wouldn't a better solution be to have those that want cradle to grave gov't teet sucking move to a place that has that instead of trying to destroy a system(despite it's flaws) works quite well and people are generally happy with?

You also have to understand that our nation is different from any other nation in the world. We were founded because we wanted liberty and believed individualism was sacred.

BTW, you're welcome for much of the innovation in the field of medicine your gov't(tax payers anyway) provides you.

If people are happy with the US healthcare system, then why is there all this talk of reform? .

Because the new popular thing is to go after minority wants and needs, and create a behemoth rally cry in the name of freedom. Last year it was gay marriage, this year its the uninsured.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
Well, I applaud you guys for voting Obama in, however there's not much you can do about him now. He's not doing as well as I would have expected. You guys are still in Iraq. He seems to have dropped the ball on this healthcare issue. I agree that taking smaller steps probably would have made more sense; address the issues one at a time.

Really though, how is he going to do all that much when he's only raising taxes on people who earn more than $250,000 per year?

They say that the only reason Canada was able to afford implementing a socialized healthcare system was because we stayed out of the Vietnam war.

At the end of the day, you guys need to either reduce how much doctors make, or else reduce the cost of administration. I would imagine that a 'salary cap' on doctors would be considered "Anti-American" (despite the fact that professional athletes are often bound by one). I'm sure that there is a more efficient way to run the administration, and in fact it may make sense for the government to do it.

I agree with you, and believe that reducing admin costs is the way to . Capping salaries isnt gonna happen, nor should it. Becoming a well paid doc takes about 20 years after initial startup (enrolling in school). Its a very expensive undertaking, both financially, emotionally, and personally. Becoming wealthy is the minority.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: blackangst1Are you referring to the isolation of insulin for diabetes treatment? That is NOT a cure. Or maybe youre referring to the first islet of Langerhans transplants? Ah yes. Those were actually refined by University of Illinois at Chicago, based on initial work in Ontario.

But diabetes is NOT cured.

This is getting off-topic, but I have heard that gastric bypass surgery will cure diabetes or at least make it disappear.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: blackangst1Are you referring to the isolation of insulin for diabetes treatment? That is NOT a cure. Or maybe youre referring to the first islet of Langerhans transplants? Ah yes. Those were actually refined by University of Illinois at Chicago, based on initial work in Ontario.

But diabetes is NOT cured.

This is getting off-topic, but I have heard that gastric bypass surgery will cure diabetes or at least make it disappear.

Nope. Diabetes is the pancreas' inability to produce insulin. In the case of type 1 none at all, in the case of type 2 not enough. Making the stomach smaller doesnt all of a sudden make it start producing insulin

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
There are two main reasons why healthcare costs too much in the US:

1. The doctors make too much money.

They really don't when you take into account the cost of their education both in dollars and in time. Now, if you were to forgive the loans of all doctors upon successful graduation and maybe 5 or 10 years of private practice, then reducing salaries would be an option.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Administrations costs are high in many respects due to Gov't interference and controls.

What you call interference, we call safety standards.

And interesting you leave out the costs of dealing with a thousand different insurance companies. My father is a physician in a 2 doctor practice. They have 4 billing people to handle insurance and all their bullshit so that the doctors actually get paid and can pay their employees.

And since they're both in their 60s, a lot of their earnings go to their own private insurance. Needless to say, they're both in favor of a public option and/or other serious reform.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: squirrel dog
Originally posted by: SickBeast
There are two main reasons why healthcare costs too much in the US:

1. The doctors make too much money.

2. The administrative costs are too high.




TORT REFORM !!!!!!! Drs pay a ton for malpractice ins to pay off

lawsuits against them.

Except if you are an OB or other high lawsuit specialty, the costs of dealing with insurance companies in employee salaries alone exceed the costs of malpractice insurance.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Are you referring to the isolation of insulin for diabetes treatment? That is NOT a cure. Or maybe youre referring to the first islet of Langerhans transplants? Ah yes. Those were actually refined by University of Illinois at Chicago, based on initial work in Ontario.

But diabetes is NOT cured.

Just have to point out that UIC is a State University, not a private institution. And no doubt, the research was funded by the NIH. So, it was evil socialist research, not pure and Holy capitalism at work.

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
Well, I applaud you guys for voting Obama in, however there's not much you can do about him now. He's not doing as well as I would have expected. You guys are still in Iraq. He seems to have dropped the ball on this healthcare issue. I agree that taking smaller steps probably would have made more sense; address the issues one at a time.

Really though, how is he going to do all that much when he's only raising taxes on people who earn more than $250,000 per year?

They say that the only reason Canada was able to afford implementing a socialized healthcare system was because we stayed out of the Vietnam war.

At the end of the day, you guys need to either reduce how much doctors make, or else reduce the cost of administration. I would imagine that a 'salary cap' on doctors would be considered "Anti-American" (despite the fact that professional athletes are often bound by one). I'm sure that there is a more efficient way to run the administration, and in fact it may make sense for the government to do it.

We can not afford the government we have NOW with only raising taxes on the evil rich folk. Our current expenses are going through the roof and revenue has gone off a cliff. As it is now, approx. 1/5 of our revenue this year will go to paying just the interest of what we owe. Since its not politically feasible to reduce spending enough to actually matter nor is it politically feasible to raise taxes to a point that we are actually paying for the government we are receiving I have little faith that the problem will actually get fixed. Sooner or later (likely a lot sooner than most will admit) our creditors are going to fix the problem for us.

Any new spending that isn't completely paid for with tax increases, like the current health care bills, will only speed the process up. Hell, our CURRENT bond auctions aren't exactly doing swell and I can't imagine trying to sell even more is going to help. Its going to be interesting to see what happens when the Fed ends its QE.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Are you referring to the isolation of insulin for diabetes treatment? That is NOT a cure. Or maybe youre referring to the first islet of Langerhans transplants? Ah yes. Those were actually refined by University of Illinois at Chicago, based on initial work in Ontario.

But diabetes is NOT cured.

Just have to point out that UIC is a State University, not a private institution. And no doubt, the research was funded by the NIH. So, it was evil socialist research, not pure and Holy capitalism at work.

OK...wasnt my point, but OK.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Administrations costs are high in many respects due to Gov't interference and controls.

What you call interference, we call safety standards.

And interesting you leave out the costs of dealing with a thousand different insurance companies. My father is a physician in a 2 doctor practice. They have 4 billing people to handle insurance and all their bullshit so that the doctors actually get paid and can pay their employees.

And since they're both in their 60s, a lot of their earnings go to their own private insurance. Needless to say, they're both in favor of a public option and/or other serious reform.

:roll: Standards are a tiny piece of the pie when it comes to "interference and controls" you twit.

According to BHO and his astroturfers we need MORE competition - hows that "change" your little anecdote?


Silly libs- never can see beyond the nearest emotional rhetoric...

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: blackangst1Nope. Diabetes is the pancreas' inability to produce insulin. In the case of type 1 none at all, in the case of type 2 not enough. Making the stomach smaller doesnt all of a sudden make it start producing insulin

That may be so, but I heard a surgeon who specializes in gastric bypasses say that it seems to cure diabetes or at least makes it disappear. As of the time he said it, it was unknown why, but it seems to work. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: squirrel dog

Originally posted by: SickBeast[/i]
There are two main reasons why healthcare costs too much in the US:

1. The doctors make too much money.

2. The administrative costs are too high.

TORT REFORM !!!!!!! Drs pay a ton for malpractice ins to pay off lawsuits against them.

Except if you are an OB or other high lawsuit specialty, the costs of dealing with insurance companies in employee salaries alone exceed the costs of malpractice insurance.

Tort reform is a great idea. Here in Canada you cannot sue for pain and suffering. We do not have all of the lawsuits that you guys have in the US as a result.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Administrations costs are high in many respects due to Gov't interference and controls.

What you call interference, we call safety standards.

And interesting you leave out the costs of dealing with a thousand different insurance companies. My father is a physician in a 2 doctor practice. They have 4 billing people to handle insurance and all their bullshit so that the doctors actually get paid and can pay their employees.

And since they're both in their 60s, a lot of their earnings go to their own private insurance. Needless to say, they're both in favor of a public option and/or other serious reform.

:roll: Standards are a tiny piece of the pie when it comes to "interference and controls" you twit.

According to BHO and his astroturfers we need MORE competition - hows that "change" your little anecdote?


Silly libs- never can see beyond the nearest emotional rhetoric...

CAD I would take SammyJr's opinion over yours any day of the week on this issue. He at least has direct knowledge of the problem. Call him names all that you want. He's right and you're wrong.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: blackangst1Nope. Diabetes is the pancreas' inability to produce insulin. In the case of type 1 none at all, in the case of type 2 not enough. Making the stomach smaller doesnt all of a sudden make it start producing insulin

That may be so, but I heard a surgeon who specializes in gastric bypasses say that it seems to cure diabetes or at least makes it disappear. As of the time he said it, it was unknown why, but it seems to work. Take it for what it's worth.

I Googled it, and theres some chatter about controlling type 2. But, if you read up on it, the same can be said of diet. Type 1 is another matter altogether. Insulin is a REQUIRED enzyme in the body, and whether you eat or not, you need it, thus injections. Gastric bypass does not eliminate the body's need for insulin. In type 2, the pancreas produces anywhere from 95-10% capacity, thus can be controlled with diet/excercise/whatever. But the pancreas still makes insulin. I've been a type 1 for 43 years, and have been part of clinical trials at 2 diabetes research hospitals, so I know a thing or two

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Administrations costs are high in many respects due to Gov't interference and controls.

What you call interference, we call safety standards.

And interesting you leave out the costs of dealing with a thousand different insurance companies. My father is a physician in a 2 doctor practice. They have 4 billing people to handle insurance and all their bullshit so that the doctors actually get paid and can pay their employees.

And since they're both in their 60s, a lot of their earnings go to their own private insurance. Needless to say, they're both in favor of a public option and/or other serious reform.

:roll: Standards are a tiny piece of the pie when it comes to "interference and controls" you twit.

According to BHO and his astroturfers we need MORE competition - hows that "change" your little anecdote?


Silly libs- never can see beyond the nearest emotional rhetoric...

CAD I would take SammyJr's opinion over yours any day of the week on this issue. He at least has direct knowledge of the problem. Call him names all that you want. He's right and you're wrong.

lol, think what you wish but the FACT is that BHO was selling his BS as "competition" so I don't know how he thinks that BH0's little plan would help with his little anecdote. Care to try again?