People migrating from blue to red suberbs...because its more affordable

[vi edit]

Many regional/state urban hubs even in the reddest states are growing, getting filled up with younger more liberal people. Have a decent college or two, some employment base to build on and a modicum of infrastructure and they appear. Some places more slowly than others but it's happening. Places like VA and CO seem to be on the forefront of that trend and the balance of political power has shifted or is in the active process of doing so. A fascinating possibility is that the Republican tax bill could dramatically accelerate this trend, file that under "unintended consequences" I guess.

I live in Lexington, KY which is a liberal stronghold in sea of red counties. Our population growth is running about 50% higher than the national average. By 2020 we are expected to add another 40,000 people to a city of around 400,000. But housing is a major issue. Zoning laws are preventing a lot of vertical housing in the downtown areas, historic preservation and overall NIMBY mentality is keeping large scale development from happening. A lot of the younger millennials from rural Kentucky are coming into town and settling in. Plus a lot of retirees are settling in due to favorable tax laws and slightly more mild weather than northern states. But yes, it's a young and liberal leaning core at it's base that is building here.

 

[K1052]

I live in Lexington, KY which is a liberal stronghold in sea of red counties. Our population growth is running about 50% higher than the national average. By 2020 we are expected to add another 40,000 people to a city of around 400,000. But housing is a major issue. Zoning laws are preventing a lot of vertical housing in the downtown areas, historic preservation and overall NIMBY mentality is keeping large scale development from happening. A lot of the younger millennials from rural Kentucky are coming into town and settling in. Plus a lot of retirees are settling in due to favorable tax laws and slightly more mile weather than northern states. But yes, it's a young and liberal leaning core at it's base that is building here.

Yea a lot of cities are going to have to amend their zoning plans and at least allow higher density in downtown areas and near transit.

One thing I do love about Chicago is our, shall we say, flexible approach to zoning changes. We've got some NIMBYs but they're in smallish pockets and wield less power than anyplace I've been. As long as you play the game right here you can quickly obtain high density entitlements that would make any other city blush. We've actually managed to build ourselves into a bit of an apartment glut at the moment pumping thousands of new units in every year for the last 6 or 7 as the central area has grown like crazy.

 

[Jhhnn]

Those fly by night mortgage companies gave anyone with a pulse a mortgage and no one did anything to stop it because real estate gave a momentary illusion of economic stability. Maybe we would benefit from a nice depression.

Who's this "We", Kimosabe? Only the stupendously wealthy can afford to talk that way. The best time to be rich is when everybody else is broke, busted & begging. Any ruthless capitalist knows they're begging for him to put the bone to them, harder & deeper than ever before. Ask Mnuchin.

The country runs on credit, not currency. Mere fact. When fractional reserve banking goes titsup there's never enough currency to lubricate the machinery of commerce.

 

[JSt0rm]

Who's this "We", Kimosabe? Only the stupendously wealthy can afford to talk that way. The best time to be rich is when everybody else is broke, busted & begging. Any ruthless capitalist knows they're begging for him to put the bone to them, harder & deeper than ever before. Ask Mnuchin.

The country runs on credit, not currency. Mere fact. When fractional reserve banking goes titsup there's never enough currency to lubricate the machinery of commerce.

His line of thinking is the most dangerous and he is not the only one who thinks this way. We are headed for some serious shit with these people in charge.

 

[bshole]

Taxes, and inflated housing prices due for a correction.

I live in a blue state deep in Clinton country, and I've enjoyed hearing the water cooler conversations now that the upper middle class may take a tax hit. Some are starting to ponder relocation. Still others, rather than lament not being able to deduct their state and local taxes, are actually starting to question why those taxes are so high to begin with. When those taxes provided a nice little deduction cushion, no reason to question them. Now, people may actually question what those taxes actually pay for.

You enjoyed listening to the middle class complain about getting screwed KNOWING that the money they lost went in the hands of billionaires? Let me guess, you will dance joyously when the Republicans slice and dice the medicare and SS benefits of middle class people next year. Um... you do realize that you aren't a billionaire don't you?

 

[JSt0rm]

You enjoyed listening to the middle class complain about getting screwed KNOWING that the money they lost went in the hands of billionaires? Let me guess, you will dance joyously when the Republicans slice and dice the medicare and SS benefits of middle class people next year. Um... you do realize that you aren't a billionaire don't you?

His brain is the result of 20 years of propaganda. Up is down left is right rich is poor

 

[Jhhnn]

The housing bubble was driven by the "stated income" loan. No docs, no proof of income, nothing. I know a fellow who had a stay at home wife, 4 kids, and a car payment. He made $17 an hour and purchased a $350k condo with a 20/80 reverse amortization loan, and not a single dollar out of his pocket. His plan was to sell in five years when he actually had to start paying down the loans. The market blew up after 4 years. He walked away and actually came out ahead because he paid below market rent for four years.

Please. It was driven by demand for investment returns. The Bush tax cuts flooded markets with hot money. Deliberately lax regulation enabled excessive & systemic risk. When it all fell down the people who had the means to buy distressed assets for a song made out handsomely. Vultures like Mnuchin always do.

 

[Exterous]

As a fellow who's planing to move from a deep blue state to a red state, the answer is simple. I can buy a very nice house and pay cash for it, have low property taxes, very little traffic, a large buffer between me and my neighbors, and not have to pay the city $200 if I want to change a doorknob.
I'm so sick of crowded city's and impassable freeways that I can't see straight. I'm moving to a red state where I'll be a hard core NIMBY.

I can relate to the articles on moving counties because that's what we are thinking of doing. We currently live in the one of the bluest counties in the state but are looking to move to an area which has been more historically red. Its only 1.5 miles away but the property taxes are less than half and far fewer restrictions on what you can do to your property.

The housing bubble was driven by the "stated income" loan. No docs, no proof of income, nothing. I know a fellow who had a stay at home wife, 4 kids, and a car payment. He made $17 an hour and purchased a $350k condo with a 20/80 reverse amortization loan, and not a single dollar out of his pocket. His plan was to sell in five years when he actually had to start paying down the loans. The market blew up after 4 years. He walked away and actually came out ahead because he paid below market rent for four years.

Stated income may have been a big player at the start but it wouldn't have gotten very far if the rest of the system was working. For example faith in the rating companies had a huge impact on it because they didn't do their job leading people to have way more faith in the security packages than they should have. Insurance companies were then more willing to cover them than they would have been otherwise

 

[Starbuck1975]

Who's this "We", Kimosabe? Only the stupendously wealthy can afford to talk that way. The best time to be rich is when everybody else is broke, busted & begging. Any ruthless capitalist knows they're begging for him to put the bone to them, harder & deeper than ever before. Ask Mnuchin.

The country runs on credit, not currency. Mere fact. When fractional reserve banking goes titsup there's never enough currency to lubricate the machinery of commerce.

The last time there was any meaningful reform in this country was in the wake of the Great Depression, and that event is what paved the way for both the New Deal and the greatest generation.

 

[Starbuck1975]

You enjoyed listening to the middle class complain about getting screwed KNOWING that the money they lost went in the hands of billionaires? Let me guess, you will dance joyously when the Republicans slice and dice the medicare and SS benefits of middle class people next year. Um... you do realize that you aren't a billionaire don't you?

Not sure what you are reacting to.

$200k plus households are not middle class, they are the liberal NIMBY class. I will dance joyously when the people who blindly vote Democrat start holding their elected officials to task the same as is starting to happen in red states.

 

[Starbuck1975]

His line of thinking is the most dangerous and he is not the only one who thinks this way. We are headed for some serious shit with these people in charge.

Nope, those who approach politics as if it were a team sport are the most dangerous.

 

[Jhhnn]

The last time there was any meaningful reform in this country was in the wake of the Great Depression, and that event is what paved the way for both the New Deal and the greatest generation.

It remains obvious that you believe the pain will be inflicted on people other than yourself.

 

[bshole]

Not sure what you are reacting to.

$200k plus households are not middle class, they are the liberal NIMBY class. I will dance joyously when the people who blindly vote Democrat start holding their elected officials to task the same as is starting to happen in red states.

Um I put the quote right in my response, here is your quote again:

I've enjoyed hearing the water cooler conversations now that the upper middle class

Are you going all Trump on us? In the first quote they are the upper middle class and in the VERY next quote, they AREN'T the middle class.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Um I put the quote right in my response, here is your quote again:

Are you going all Trump on us? In the first quote they are the upper middle class and in the VERY next quote, they AREN'T the middle class.

That's because they are two very distinct and separate things. To me, middle class are the firemen, teachers, soldiers, construction workers, tradespeople and craftspeople. I've not seen either party do much of anything to help the true American middle class, which continues to shrink in favor of this blind faith in globalization and automation.

What I have seen is the upper middle class, which tends to vote Democrat, also start to model the behaviors of the 1% class. In their pumpkin spice, whole foods and luxury SUV bubble, they too are starting to hoard their own piece of the American pie, NIMBYism being the most defining characteristic. They are also the ones irresponsibly driving the very technologies that are screwing over the people just one step down the social ladder from them. The new tax laws will bite these people, and some will inevitably now question where there local tax dollars are going.

 

[Starbuck1975]

It remains obvious that you believe the pain will be inflicted on people other than yourself.

No, Americans really have no clue what true pain is. I think our society is due for a jolt from the arrogance of our first world problems. I would welcome a little pain, it makes you stronger.

 

[bshole]

That's because they are two very distinct and separate things. To me, middle class are the firemen, teachers, soldiers, construction workers, tradespeople and craftspeople. I've not seen either party do much of anything to help the true American middle class, which continues to shrink in favor of this blind faith in globalization and automation.

What I have seen is the upper middle class, which tends to vote Democrat, also start to model the behaviors of the 1% class. In their pumpkin spice, whole foods and luxury SUV bubble, they too are starting to hoard their own piece of the American pie, NIMBYism being the most defining characteristic. They are also the ones irresponsibly driving the very technologies that are screwing over the people just one step down the social ladder from them. The new tax laws will bite these people, and some will inevitably now question where there local tax dollars are going.

Dunno. All I question is you pissing on the people who got screwed by the wealthiest segment of society and you supporting more wealth transfer to the richest segment of society ON CREDIT. You know Russia exists don't you? It would seem to be utopia for a person like you. No middle class at all and with even more wealth inequality than America.

Just so we are clear, when the bill for this insanity comes due in 3-6 years and we enter the next Great Depression, it is on you and yours. I would like you to own what you guys did to America. In the meantime, enjoy your bubble.

 

[Jhhnn]

No, Americans really have no clue what true pain is. I think our society is due for a jolt from the arrogance of our first world problems. I would welcome a little pain, it makes you stronger.

So the Great Recession wasn't enough pain? "We", the people you pretend to champion in post #64, need more?

 

[bshole]

So the Great Recession wasn't enough pain? "We", the people you pretend to champion in post #64, need more?

Apparently Conservatives want people starving on the streets like they do in 3rd world countries. Luckily for them, their leader's policies should get us there eventually.

 

[JSt0rm]

No, Americans really have no clue what true pain is. I think our society is due for a jolt from the arrogance of our first world problems. I would welcome a little pain, it makes you stronger.

So because you cant succeed in modern society you want to see the whole thing blow up?

 

[bshole]

So because you cant succeed in modern society you want to see the whole thing blow up?

When he says suffering and pain mind you he is only referring to the plebes. God forbid that the people blowing it apart with crony capitalism should suffer even the minutest of inconveniences, that would be unAmerican.

 

[Jaskalas]

I've not seen either party do much of anything to help the true American middle class, which continues to shrink in favor of this blind faith in globalization and automation.

We call that Capitalism. The market strives for efficient use of capital. It just so happens that American labor is not efficient. So first Wall Street offshores our labor. Soon they will automate it. How would you like to respond to this sort of unbridled use of Capitalism, would you like to try and stop it? And you'd replace it with... what?

How would you restrict and attack the free market?

Me? I'd encourage it. Let them cheapen the cost of goods, let them drive efficiency to the max. But tax them a hefty sum and return that value to the consumers. An ultimate fix for what ails us, by taking the value of lost labor and returning it to the very people we need to keep healthy. To keep Capitalism healthy. We don't have to denounce or attack the market if we can fix it.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Dunno. All I question is you pissing on the people who got screwed by the wealthiest segment of society and you supporting more wealth transfer to the richest segment of society ON CREDIT. You know Russia exists don't you? It would seem to be utopia for a person like you. No middle class at all and with even more wealth inequality than America.

Just so we are clear, when the bill for this insanity comes due in 3-6 years and we enter the next Great Depression, it is on you and yours. I would like you to own what you guys did to America. In the meantime, enjoy your bubble.

You are flailing against a position I did not take. Try deviating from the narrative.

 

[Starbuck1975]

So because you cant succeed in modern society you want to see the whole thing blow up?

I've done quite well in modern society, but I also acknowledge my path is very atypical and blessed by a lot of dumb luck. I see both parties destroying the few remaining mechanisms and levers that allowed someone like me to retrain and advance.

Now that I rub elbows with the "architects" and "thought leaders" of modern society, I find their arrogance and dismissive disregard for the working class in need of a humbling correction.

 

[Starbuck1975]

We call that Capitalism. The market strives for efficient use of capital. It just so happens that American labor is not efficient. So first Wall Street offshores our labor. Soon they will automate it. How would you like to respond to this sort of unbridled use of Capitalism, would you like to try and stop it? And you'd replace it with... what?

How would you restrict and attack the free market?

Me? I'd encourage it. Let them cheapen the cost of goods, let them drive efficiency to the max. But tax them a hefty sum and return that value to the consumers. An ultimate fix for what ails us, by taking the value of lost labor and returning it to the very people we need to keep healthy. To keep Capitalism healthy. We don't have to denounce or attack the market if we can fix it.

I am for capitalism, not exploitation. The only reason American labor is "inefficient" is because corporate America found a path to exploit other labor pools.

There was a brief moment where production systems started to shift towards this notion of value and quality. Instead, we took this destructive detour that elevated shareholder value above all other considerations.

 

[Jaskalas]

I am for capitalism, not exploitation. The only reason American labor is "inefficient" is because corporate America found a path to exploit other labor pools.

Solutions? You going to make me guess at what you want to tell us?

It sounds like you favor isolation as a means of winning yesterday's battle. To prevent us from using "other" labor pools.
How do you propose expensive labor survive automation, ban machines? A free society does not beat robots, they adapt to live with it. Government is not the enemy here, to stop exploitation it is the only solution.