Penny Arcade Says It Best

[ja1484]

Originally posted by: apoppin


WHY?
:Q

are you not the OP?

I are.

THIS is what they believe and what you think is somehow said "best"

It's hard to imagine that there are those who still see the PC as ascendant, and not merely one option available to gamers, an option fraught with costs in time and treasure that not every person feels like fucking enduring when they get home from work. The rationalizations at play in these threads are feats of such liquid mental agility that I wish we could put these minds to work on renewable energy or on the fabrication of advanced polymers. There are profound advantages to a hand-built, precision twiddled machine, running a (relatively!) wide open OS - I've done so for well over a decade. It is this generalized potential that Sony has done their best to emulate in their latest console foray. But it's certainly not the only true way to amuse yourself with electronics, and by dismissing the fixed gaming platforms you are actively sabotaging your own happiness.

Exactly, because it is accurate.

i don't agree...he is just another blogger with a pronounced inability to convey a coherent thought about PC gaming

Firstly, the thought must be coherent by default, because if it wasn't, it would not have been possible for said thought to work you lot into such a fervor.

Secondly, you're still not making any point about the death of PC gaming, and where I supposedly made this claim. I want *you* to show *me* where, at any point, I claimed that PC gaming was dying, or the death of PC gaming was imminent, or PC gaming was dead.

You're going to have a hard go of it, because I actually claimed the opposite. Multiple times.

Holkins, in the quote you used above, places the PC on parity with other options. He never decries the system as dead. In fact, he mentions the "profound advantages" it houses and is rightfully known for.

In neither that post, nor this thread, have I or anyone I agree with claimed PC gaming was dying. It seems the only thing to have given rise to this stupid notion is baseless ASSUMPTION by rabidly pro-PC-only fanboys.

just give him a six pack of beer and show him how to turn the console on.

And if that is what he feels like doing this particular evening, what exactly is the problem?

 

[apoppin]

Secondly, you're still not making any point about the death of PC gaming, and where I supposedly made this claim. I want *you* to show *me* where, at any point, I claimed that PC gaming was dying, or the death of PC gaming was imminent, or PC gaming was dead.

Why do i have to do that? That is not what i said you did
all i did was explain to you why you were getting the "blame" ... because you are the OP and you like the article you linked to

and it is NOT accurate ... except perhaps for you ... i sacrifice NO happiness by eschewing the consoles ... i hate PC "wannabe ripoffs" ... Xbox/PS platforms
-they will eventually become irrelevant as the PC platform matures ... the Wii does appear to have a place for the present.

 

[imported_Slimy]

The argument on the penny arcade news item is a strawman argument.

It's hard to imagine that there are those who still see the PC as ascendant, and not merely one option available to gamers, an option fraught with costs in time and treasure that not every person feels like fucking enduring when they get home from work.

That's not what the PC crowd is saying. The PC crowd takes issue with the assertion that it the state of PC gaming is in disarray. We're not claiming PC gaming is the be-all-end-all. But coming off of late 2007, saying PC gaming is in any type of trouble (disarray, or otherwise) is disingenous.

What makes it that much worse is coming from Epic, where it just sounds like sour grapes from a company that released 2 games that, given the expectaions, flopped on the PC.

They hyped the hell out of GoW for the XBox (I used to see commercials for it constantly for weeks before release, and until weeks after release). If I hadn't read PC games message boards, I would never have known about the release of GoW for the PC. And everything I read indicated it was buggy as hell. Frequent reports of people losing saved games? How do you release product in that state? And the problems with UT3 have been covered here numerous times, already.

Had the "disarray" statement been made by someone at Valve, or Blizzard, or EA, it still would have been wrong, and debated. But coming from Epic, it's quite clear that it's a cop-out, meant to deflect their failures over the 4th quarter of 2007.

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: Slimy
The argument on the penny arcade news item is a strawman argument.

It's hard to imagine that there are those who still see the PC as ascendant, and not merely one option available to gamers, an option fraught with costs in time and treasure that not every person feels like fucking enduring when they get home from work.

That's not what the PC crowd is saying. The PC crowd takes issue with the assertion that it the state of PC gaming is in disarray. We're not claiming PC gaming is the be-all-end-all. But coming off of late 2007, saying PC gaming is in any type of trouble (disarray, or otherwise) is disingenous.

What makes it that much worse is coming from Epic, where it just sounds like sour grapes from a company that released 2 games that, given the expectaions, flopped on the PC.

They hyped the hell out of GoW for the XBox (I used to see commercials for it constantly for weeks before release, and until weeks after release). If I hadn't read PC games message boards, I would never have known about the release of GoW for the PC. And everything I read indicated it was buggy as hell. Frequent reports of people losing saved games? How do you release product in that state? And the problems with UT3 have been covered here numerous times, already.

Had the "disarray" statement been made by someone at Valve, or Blizzard, or EA, it still would have been wrong, and debated. But coming from Epic, it's quite clear that it's a cop-out, meant to deflect their failures over the 4th quarter of 2007.

FThe problem with Epic releasing GoW on the PC was that everyone already bought it on the Xbox... and then they realized that the game SUCKS.

PC gaming is as alive now as it was 10 years ago. The PC gets more games, better games, better community, and often the console exclusives end up getting ported to the PC anyway. Those are what make the PC such a powerful gaming platform. This does not mean the PC is the best gaming platform - it is different and great in its own way.

Why did Microsoft and Sony design their consoles to act more like computers than game consoles? The computer IS a game console.

 

[ja1484]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Secondly, you're still not making any point about the death of PC gaming, and where I supposedly made this claim. I want *you* to show *me* where, at any point, I claimed that PC gaming was dying, or the death of PC gaming was imminent, or PC gaming was dead.

Why do i have to do that? That is not what i said you did
all i did was explain to you why you were getting the "blame" ... because you are the OP and you like the article you linked to

You're still failing to make a cogent point. The "blame" is for a claim I never made, nor a claim the article I linked to made.

What you are effectively saying with the above quoted post is: "I am trying to explain why you are getting the blame: For no reason at all."

You'll pardon me if I find that a bit SILLY.

Originally posted by: Slimy
The argument on the penny arcade news item is a strawman argument.

It's hard to imagine that there are those who still see the PC as ascendant, and not merely one option available to gamers, an option fraught with costs in time and treasure that not every person feels like fucking enduring when they get home from work.

That's not what the PC crowd is saying. The PC crowd takes issue with the assertion that it the state of PC gaming is in disarray. We're not claiming PC gaming is the be-all-end-all. But coming off of late 2007, saying PC gaming is in any type of trouble (disarray, or otherwise) is disingenous.

I take issue with the idea of PC gaming being in "disarray" as well, because it certainly isn't.

However, a lot of the "PC crowd" does take issue with referring to the platform as anything other than the absolute best there is. Some, like yourself, myself, a few other posters in here are reasonable enough to see past that and recognize that tastes differ.

What makes it that much worse is coming from Epic, where it just sounds like sour grapes from a company that released 2 games that, given the expectaions, flopped on the PC.

They hyped the hell out of GoW for the XBox (I used to see commercials for it constantly for weeks before release, and until weeks after release). If I hadn't read PC games message boards, I would never have known about the release of GoW for the PC. And everything I read indicated it was buggy as hell. Frequent reports of people losing saved games? How do you release product in that state? And the problems with UT3 have been covered here numerous times, already.

And that's a fair enough position to take. The problem is most people don't articulate it with anything approaching this kind of clarity.

I will say that most of GoW's problems on the PC stem from it's forced-inclusion in the GFW program and thus the reliance on Live for Windows, which is a crime against humanity. The game itself has run stable and well for me, but you have to be connected to the internet via LFW to save your single player progress. That's the kind of shit I have trouble forgiving. The options to configure the game are also very very slim pickins, thanks to the console-centric code.But, Microsoft footed a large portion of the bill for GoW's development and that's how business works - you do what the guys with the money tell you to do. They need a big exclusive franchise to carry the torch after Halo wrapped up, to reload their guns, so to speak, and GoW was designed for that singular purpose.

It doesn't excuse the situation, but I do believe it helps to explain it.

Had the "disarray" statement been made by someone at Valve, or Blizzard, or EA, it still would have been wrong, and debated. But coming from Epic, it's quite clear that it's a cop-out, meant to deflect their failures over the 4th quarter of 2007.

I think it's more that Cliff is just falling ever more into that segment of "people who don't feel like enduring the extra effort required to game on PC after work". It is true that support and workarounds (or, even, actually working out of the box) are a great deal more difficult to wrangle with on the PC, for both the end user and the (doesn't give a shit) company rep trying to guide them through the tech support macro over the phone.

Consoles generally don't have this issue as much - and I say "generally" and "as much" because as we have been shown by Microsoft with RRoD and EA with that Madden on PSP debacle, the right people can fuck anything up, even something as simplistic as consoles.

On the tradeoff, there are games and gametypes on the PC that are just marvelous and could not be done on consoles, period. STALKER comes directly to mind, along with NeverWinter Nights, the Battlefield series, and most every RTS. Some people are starting to believe there's a place for the shooter on consoles after Halo and GoW. I disagree. All I think these titles have proven is that it's relatively easy to sell most anything to console-only gamers...after all, a large portion of them are teenage males with incredible vulnerabilities to marketing. Shooter and Strategy titles belong on the PC, and suck elsewhere.

There's a reason I game across three platforms, and it's because no single one is the best at everything.

 

[apoppin]

You'll pardon me if I find that a bit SILLY.

and yow will pardon me if i find what you just said, silly also

since you are now backing off and making *denials* ... i.e.

I take issue with the idea of PC gaming being in "disarray" as well, because it certainly isn't.

it may also not be obvious to you that PC gaming is the best platform ... but i assure you, it will become obvious to everyone sooner-or-later

Consoles are either 1) becoming irrelevant, 2) becoming PCs or 3) finding a place beside the TV as something completely 'alternate' like the Wii
-the Xbox and PS3 platforms are ultimately doomed ... a superfast PC with wireless connects in EVERY room will make consoles thing of the past. No Way a PS3 can compete with a PC unless it *becomes* an upgradable gaming PC ... and we already see that Sony couldn't sell it even for a small loss - they have to take a HUGE one on each PS3 sold

 

[ja1484]

Originally posted by: apoppin
since you are now backing off and making *denials* ... i.e.

I take issue with the idea of PC gaming being in "disarray" as well, because it certainly isn't.

Show me where I said PC gaming was in disarray. Show me where the guys at PA said PC gaming was in disarray.

I never have agreed with Cliff's statement. The PC has its own issues, but PC gaming is more organized than ever.

it may also not be obvious to you that PC gaming is the best platform ... but i assure you, it will become obvious to everyone sooner-or-later

Consoles are either 1) becoming irrelevant, 2) becoming PCs or 3) finding a place beside the TV as something completely 'alternate' like the Wii
-the Xbox and PS3 platforms are ultimately doomed ... a superfast PC with wireless connects in EVERY room will make consoles thing of the past. No Way a PS3 can compete with a PC unless it *becomes* an upgradable gaming PC ... and we already see that Sony couldn't sell it even for a small loss - they have to take a HUGE one on each PS3 sold

That's just funny.

Consoles have been growing massively year on year. They are also becoming more PC-like. Coincidence? You decide. I really couldn't care less about the why of it.

 

[Thraxen]

Originally posted by: apoppin
it may also not be obvious to you that PC gaming is the best platform ... but i assure you, it will become obvious to everyone sooner-or-later

Consoles are either 1) becoming irrelevant, 2) becoming PCs or 3) finding a place beside the TV as something completely 'alternate' like the Wii
-the Xbox and PS3 platforms are ultimately doomed ... a superfast PC with wireless connects in EVERY room will make consoles thing of the past. No Way a PS3 can compete with a PC unless it *becomes* an upgradable gaming PC ... and we already see that Sony couldn't sell it even for a small loss - they have to take a HUGE one on each PS3 sold

Haha... you contradict yourself in your own statement when you call the Wii "completely alternate". It's a console. And if a console can find a place to exist (even as "completely alternate"), then that means that the PC can't automatically be called the "best" platform (whatever that even means). Believe it or not, some people prefer gaming on the Wii over anything else! Shocking, I know! Consoles will always have a place as long as PC games still have a myriad of technical issues to deal with. You talk about upgrading, but that's exactly what many people don't have any interest in doing. Face it, the bulk of the people out there buy a PC off the shelf and then use it until it outright breaks or becomes painfully slow. As long as those people are out there consoles will exist. And as long as they exist there will be games I want to play on them and I will continue to do so on along with gaming on my PC. Oh yeah, and you can't talk about the future as if it applies now. That's just dumb. Maybe sometime in the future there will be this amazing PC you are talking about that replaces consoles, but that doesn't make the PC the best platform for everyone now. Do you understand the difference? Now vs future?

And you may as well drop your points about the PS3 right now. While it's true that it is common to sell the hardware at a loss, Sony was willing take a larger loss than normal to use the PS3 to win the HD disk format war... which is exactly what it did. So the losses on the PS3 aren't directly applicable to whatever nonsense point you were trying to make. But, whatever, not much else you ever say makes any sense anyway.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Thraxen

Originally posted by: apoppin
it may also not be obvious to you that PC gaming is the best platform ... but i assure you, it will become obvious to everyone sooner-or-later

Consoles are either 1) becoming irrelevant, 2) becoming PCs or 3) finding a place beside the TV as something completely 'alternate' like the Wii
-the Xbox and PS3 platforms are ultimately doomed ... a superfast PC with wireless connects in EVERY room will make consoles thing of the past. No Way a PS3 can compete with a PC unless it *becomes* an upgradable gaming PC ... and we already see that Sony couldn't sell it even for a small loss - they have to take a HUGE one on each PS3 sold

Haha... you contradict yourself in your own statement when you call the Wii "completely alternate". It's a console. And if a console can find a place to exist (even as "completely alternate"), then that means that the PC can't automatically be called the "best" platform (whatever that even means). Believe it or not, some people prefer gaming on the Wii over anything else! Shocking, I know! Consoles will always have a place as long as PC games still have a myriad of technical issues to deal with. You talk about upgrading, but that's exactly what many people don't have any interest in doing. Face it, the bulk of the people out there buy a PC off the shelf and then use it until it outright breaks or becomes painfully slow. As long as those people are out there consoles will exist. And as long as they exist there will be games I want to play on them and I will continue to do so on along with gaming on my PC. Oh yeah, and you can't talk about the future as if it applies now. That's just dumb. Maybe sometime in the future there will be this amazing PC you are talking about that replaces consoles, but that doesn't make the PC the best platform for everyone now. Do you understand the difference? Now vs future?

And you may as well drop your points about the PS3 right now. While it's true that it is common to sell the hardware at a loss, Sony was willing take a larger loss than normal to use the PS3 to win the HD disk format war... which is exactly what it did. So the losses on the PS3 aren't directly applicable to whatever nonsense point you were trying to make. But, whatever, not much else you ever say makes any sense anyway.

i don't contradict myself when i say the Wii is *unique* ... it CURRENTLY fills a spot the PC and other consoles cannot [YET!] fill

and if you *really thimk* about it ... the PC "is" a gaming console ... it also just does OTHER things really well. At best, the Xbox/PS platforms provide "media entertainment"
--Now where does this specialized and competing "media entertainment console" go when the PC fills their functions better then they do?
--in the trash

the Wii is "innovative" but is has *nothing* that will not be done - better - on the PC ... and i'd like to see you do some homework with your Wii
:roll:

Sony wasn't willing to drop prices ... and i pointed out to them in my thread that UNTIL they did, they would just keep on bleeding cash with a non-selling *dud* ... SLASHING the price and taking an ADDITIONAL $200 loss on EACH console is making them ZERO profit but gives them a CHANCE to make SOME of it back with their overpriced PS3 games .. and mostly with games that are NOT exclusive, the ONLY reason to buy a PS3 is for BluRay. AND when BlueRay recorders finally drop to less than $100 next year, PS3 may finally flop unless Sony can figure out how to manufacture it for less than half of what it costs them NOW or how to attract more "exclusive titles" back to their confused platform.
--it was [finally] a SMART strategy move for Sony to have done what i suggested .. they may still lose the PS3 but they won a much bigger "hi-Def" format war by getting so many blu-ray players and disks into the general population by discounting the PS3 so much.

Just because you are unable to explain your view with a coherent argument does not mean that you need to call what you cannot comprehend - "nonsense"

The PC IS evolving right now into a powerful wireless "beast" that will function in every room .. that has always been the vision. HW is finally getting SO powerful and cheap that the consoles will just continue to price themselves out of existence as they will never "keep up" with the PC unless they become upgradeable themselves. That leaves your traditional "gaming console" sitting in one place - next to the big screen TV in the LR or attached to a TV in the kids room. Bye bye consoles

 

[Thraxen]

Originally posted by: apoppin
i don't contradict myself when i say the Wii is *unique* ... it CURRENTLY fills a spot the PC and other consoles cannot [YET!] fill

No, but you contradict yourself when you say the PC is clearly the best gaming platform and then go on to say that consoles may find a way to exist by providing an "alternate" like the Wii. If they can provide an alternative, then there are people that may enjoy that alternative better... and, thus, no one platform is clearly the best anymore. You may enjoy the PC the best, but that hardly applies to everyone.

and if you *really thimk* about it ... the PC "is" a gaming console ... it also just does OTHER things really well. At best, the Xbox/PS platforms provide "media entertainment"
--Now where does this specialized and competing "media entertainment console" go when the PC fills their functions better then they do?
--in the trash

The garbage is where that point goes. It's pointless. I don't see anyone claiming the PC isn't a great multitasking tool. Even most people with consoles have PCs. Next.

the Wii is "innovative" but is has *nothing* that will not be done - better - on the PC ... and i'd like to see you do some homework with your Wii
:roll:

Garbage again. If the PC doesn't provide the same experience now it doesn't really matter what it could do. And you keep wanting to make everything about hardware, but that's only a fraction of the equation. Currently consoles offer an easy plug-n-play gaming experience designed for people's entertainment centers. Most people don't have their PCs anywhere near said entertainment centers and they are not plug-n-play type devices... at least not to the extent of consoles. And, again, you bring up the strawman arguement about multitasking.

Sony wasn't willing to drop prices ... and i pointed out to them in my thread that UNTIL they did, they would just keep on bleeding cash with a non-selling *dud* ... SLASHING the price and taking an ADDITIONAL $200 loss on EACH console is making them ZERO profit.. blah, blah...

You're just making up BS now. Sony isn't taking an additional $200 loss. Prices for the BR components have dropped significantly since the PS3 was launched. They've also cut the backward compatibility components on their lowered priced SKUs. You can't simply add up their estimated loss they were taking at launch and stack the value of the price cuts on top. You don't even have a clue what you're talking about here.

Just because you are unable to explain your view with a coherent argument does not mean that you need to call what you cannot comprehend - "nonsense"

Most of what you say IS nonsense and utterly easy to dismantle.

The PC IS evolving right now into a powerful wireless "beast" that will function in every room .. that has always been the vision. HW is finally getting SO powerful and cheap that the consoles will just continue to price themselves out of existence as they will never "keep up" with the PC unless they become upgradeable themselves. That leaves your traditional "gaming console" sitting in one place - next to the big screen TV in the LR or attached to a TV in the kids room. Bye bye consoles

Ummm... sitting in one place is how most people use consoles now. What's your point? Again, until we get to the point where you don't have to upgrade PCs either to be able to play current games and you no longer have issues where installing one app breaks another (or any number of countless issues), there will be a place for consoles. And we are still pretty damn far from the average joe having their PCs easily networked with their entertainment centers where they can opt to use it there or in their office (or whatever corner they keep their PC in). You're still talking about what-ifs and the future. That has jack shit to do with now.

 

[apoppin]

all of what you say is also easy to dismiss ... you obviously didn't even get what i said but just looked for points to nitpick
:roll:

 

[ja1484]

Yeah, we must just "not get it".

 

[apoppin]

Well, you posted nothing worth replying to

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Originally posted by: KeithTalent

Originally posted by: ja1484

Originally posted by: Thraxen
Hey, great, PC gaming is doing fine. So how about you freaks quit obsessing about it? And while you're at it, quit trying to scapegoat consoles for every freaking issue with PC games. Thanks.

Would be nice, wouldn't it?

So stop baiting everyone in the PC GAMING forum then.

KT

KT is right, if you don't like reading negative remarks about consoles, the PC gaming forum shouldn't be on your to read list. :light: I game on both and have nothing but love for both. The comments made here about consoles being for 12yr old brats, n00bs who can't figure out how to make a game run on PC, blah blah blah are just the usual rhetoric. Don't take it personally, they are just venting their frustrations.

Hehe I remember the old days back with DOS 6.22 ,now getting a game to run then with enough memory required some DOS memory tweaking,since Win 95 gamers have had it easy.

I have played on both Console and PC,I must say I prefer PC games for gameplay etc..just seem more involved some how.There's still a lot of life left in PC gaming,we have Microsoft to thank for that,got to love the cheap game prices too .