Pedophile falls to his death after fondling child

[Moonbeam]

I am a parent, and I think celebrating this death is wrong, but I don't deny my impulse to do so. I don't think @Moonbeam does either.

From a different perspective, I can easily imagine that the death and subsequent media exposure are more traumatizing to the victim.

The hardest part of advocating for this position is realizing that without his death, he could molest more children.

Growing up in a culture founded, I believe, on a flowering of remarkably enlightened notions that sought to bring balance between protection both from the tyranny of the individual and the masses, a system of laws before which all people would be tried for crimes at least in theory equally, it is natural, in my opinion, for individuals who have taken to the spirit of such a culture and internalized it, to hold in contempt, both the lawlessness of the law breaker and those impelled to resort to vigilantism to correct it, equally. This is because anybody with a thread of impartiality will recognize that the emotions generated by some crime to the rights of oneself or those who have one's sympathy, can cloud rational judgment and lead to new crimes cause by a lust for self justified revenge.

It becomes the duty, therefore and in my opinion, of any person enamored of the concept that such a system represents a significant evolution in human thinking, to want to protect it from the degradation that the simple carnal lust for blood justice represents. Sadly I believe our culture is in fact in the midst of the degeneration of just that very capacity to resist the rising cult of ego where most people lack the cultural and personal development on an emotional level to continue to support such a system. We live in an culture that is so filled with fear and the contempt it generates, and so corrupted by the buying of justice for those with money, that the vigilante has become the new form of cultural hero. And the day is coming when technology will advance to the point that some aggrieved individual somewhere will be able to take his revenge by destroying all life on the planet.

In a world where people had a real capacity to reason the mental health of the each individual would be top priority.

The reason we should strive to better understand what creates a desire for sex with children and then a willingness to acquire it ought to be to discover if it can be successfully and fully treated and if so how to inspire those so afflicted with the desire to seek such treatment. I don't know the answers, but I do know that the best that can be done at the moment is to insure that those who are so afflicted never ever have access to children. The desire to kill such people, understandable and natural as it may be, contains its own irony because it is pretty well known that a lot of people victimized as children grow up to perpetrate such crimes themselves. Suddenly those for whom we have the most sympathy become our most reviled? It's a fascinating switch that can be thrown to carry around in ones head.

 

[interchange]

Growing up in a culture founded, I believe, on a flowering of remarkably enlightened notions that sought to bring balance between protection both from the tyranny of the individual and the masses, a system of laws before which all people would be tried for crimes at least in theory equally, it is natural, in my opinion, for individuals who have taken to the spirit of such a culture and internalized it, to hold in contempt, both the lawlessness of the law breaker and those impelled to resort to vigilantism to correct it, equally. This is because anybody with a thread of impartiality will recognize that the emotions generated by some crime to the rights of oneself or those who have one's sympathy, can cloud rational judgment and lead to new crimes cause by a lust for self justified revenge.

It becomes the duty, therefore and in my opinion, of any person enamored of the concept that such a system represents a significant evolution in human thinking, to want to protect it from the degradation that the simple carnal lust for blood justice represents. Sadly I believe our culture is in fact in the midst of the degeneration of just that very capacity to resist the rising cult of ego where most people lack the cultural and personal development on an emotional level to continue to support such a system. We live in an culture that is so filled with fear and the contempt it generates, and so corrupted by the buying of justice for those with money, that the vigilante has become the new form of cultural hero. And the day is coming when technology will advance to the point that some aggrieved individual somewhere will be able to take his revenge by destroying all life on the planet.

In a world where people had a real capacity to reason the mental health of the each individual would be top priority.

The reason we should strive to better understand what creates a desire for sex with children and then a willingness to acquire it ought to be to discover if it can be successfully and fully treated and if so how to inspire those so afflicted with the desire to seek such treatment. I don't know the answers, but I do know that the best that can be done at the moment is to insure that those who are so afflicted never ever have access to children. The desire to kill such people, understandable and natural as it may be, contains its own irony because it is pretty well known that a lot of people victimized as children grow up to perpetrate such crimes themselves. Suddenly those for whom we have the most sympathy become our most reviled? It's a fascinating switch that can be thrown to carry around in ones head.

Many things to say, but I believe I know the root cause for your observation. It is our absolute prioritization of self-reliance. It leads us to the equation that we are bad if we cannot do it alone.

This is not the same as realizing that somethings are better off done as a team. That is not incompatible with a core identity of self-reliance. However, if one becomes aware that they are reliant on others in some way instead of simply preferring the aid of others, this is the greatest anxiety someone in modern America could possibly face.

Thus, when something tragic happens that overwhelms us, we are left alone and cannot even accept the aid of another who is willing to help. We are too afraid of recognizing our own weakness.

It is terrible. The strongest person is the one who freely enlists the aid of others, but on the basis of mutual respect and firm accountability for all of one's needs and desires that they are capable of.

The behavior of those who are weak, however, is always in the service of keeping that weakness hidden to themselves. You could not ever expose it to them unless they have some innate value in seeing it for themselves.

So I think we might have success, not via exposing the weakness of failure to move past the rigid ideal of self-reliance, but instead beefing up the value of reliance on others when you are in pain. Not physical pain. Real pain.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Growing up in a culture founded, I believe, on a flowering of remarkably enlightened notions that sought to bring balance between protection both from the tyranny of the individual and the masses, a system of laws before which all people would be tried for crimes at least in theory equally, it is natural, in my opinion, for individuals who have taken to the spirit of such a culture and internalized it, to hold in contempt, both the lawlessness of the law breaker and those impelled to resort to vigilantism to correct it, equally. This is because anybody with a thread of impartiality will recognize that the emotions generated by some crime to the rights of oneself or those who have one's sympathy, can cloud rational judgment and lead to new crimes cause by a lust for self justified revenge.

It becomes the duty, therefore and in my opinion, of any person enamored of the concept that such a system represents a significant evolution in human thinking, to want to protect it from the degradation that the simple carnal lust for blood justice represents. Sadly I believe our culture is in fact in the midst of the degeneration of just that very capacity to resist the rising cult of ego where most people lack the cultural and personal development on an emotional level to continue to support such a system. We live in an culture that is so filled with fear and the contempt it generates, and so corrupted by the buying of justice for those with money, that the vigilante has become the new form of cultural hero. And the day is coming when technology will advance to the point that some aggrieved individual somewhere will be able to take his revenge by destroying all life on the planet.

In a world where people had a real capacity to reason the mental health of the each individual would be top priority.

The reason we should strive to better understand what creates a desire for sex with children and then a willingness to acquire it ought to be to discover if it can be successfully and fully treated and if so how to inspire those so afflicted with the desire to seek such treatment. I don't know the answers, but I do know that the best that can be done at the moment is to insure that those who are so afflicted never ever have access to children. The desire to kill such people, understandable and natural as it may be, contains its own irony because it is pretty well known that a lot of people victimized as children grow up to perpetrate such crimes themselves. Suddenly those for whom we have the most sympathy become our most reviled? It's a fascinating switch that can be thrown to carry around in ones head.

I don't tend to respond to your posts since they can sometimes be a little .. meandery, but I wanted to for this one, since it bumps up against something of human nature I've tried to observe over my life. If I'm correct in my interpretation of what you're saying, you feel as though we've been slowly elevating ourselves as a species through law, order, enlightenment, etc, and a portion of each of us holds both honor and contempt for the rules we've created to facilitate this society of humanity we've built. You're also stating that we're so embedded in this system that we react, sometimes violently towards reverse change from it, I think, and I grok what you're saying about vigilantism, etc.

I posit a different approach. We as a culture haven't advanced, evolved, or enlightened ourselves one whit over the last few thousand years. We're roughly akin to half-blind, half-deaf apes who wake up and are able to grok rules scribbled on the wall of how to/not to react, and otherwise are left to our impulses and desires for the duration of our stay in the cave/lab/wilds. This leads to near-anarchy, where some consider application of logic acceptable means of resolving problems, whereas others consider application of force to be acceptable, and everything in between for most individuals. We've got rules built, again, written on the walls as for how we are/aren't supposed to act, though most don't even know why anymore. We've got relics of statues built all around for supposed apes we're supposed to ape (so to speak). There's a few enlightened among us, but they'll always be drowned out by the din of the crowd. Pain, and shame, are the only true tools we have to keep each other in line, as has been proven time and time and time again.

Now, to specifically answer what this little conversation sparked up, there's a few things that cause us to completely revert to an utterly feral state. Something so instinctual, that it completely overrides what's scribbled on the walls, what monuments are erected for, and what pain can prevent us from doing. One of those is an attack on children, purely baked into our being as part of evolution, to protect members of our species until such time as they can reproduce themselves (at which point they're off the 'protected' list as far as most are concerned). That age shifts around a bit, and it can depend on the person, but you'll not find a person more reviled out of instinct than a child molester. I've known of a few, and I know for a fact one doesn't exist anymore (not by my hand). Perfectly rational apes will become outright savage and tear apart one who threatens the children of the troop, and I don't know if, or how, that will ever change as long as our species is still called 'human'. Future evolution may change this to some extent, but if it does we'll likely be unrecognizable to those living today.

 

[bradly1101]

Do people believe that murdering a child abuser won't land them in jail even if it's their own child being abused? Thank goodness we have checks and balances in our brains, and many of us utilize them including all of you I'd bet.

I remember thinking, "I'd like to kill that guy," the first time I saw someone trying to take financial advantage of a mentally disabled loved one. The impulses are there, but just think of what society would be like if everyone acted on their impulses. A mature, rational mind knows the skillful answers, and the biggest problem in our overpopulated world is when that is ignored IMO. Look at the Philippines, terrorists, mass shooters, thieves, drug addicts................... Unconsidered action and reaction just breeds more. Laws are often the only barrier to the unregulated destruction of the planet or ourselves.

 

[bradly1101]

I don't tend to respond to your posts since they can sometimes be a little .. meandery, but I wanted to for this one, since it bumps up against something of human nature I've tried to observe over my life. If I'm correct in my interpretation of what you're saying, you feel as though we've been slowly elevating ourselves as a species through law, order, enlightenment, etc, and a portion of each of us holds both honor and contempt for the rules we've created to facilitate this society of humanity we've built. You're also stating that we're so embedded in this system that we react, sometimes violently towards reverse change from it, I think, and I grok what you're saying about vigilantism, etc.

I posit a different approach. We as a culture haven't advanced, evolved, or enlightened ourselves one whit over the last few thousand years. We're roughly akin to half-blind, half-deaf apes who wake up and are able to grok rules scribbled on the wall of how to/not to react, and otherwise are left to our impulses and desires for the duration of our stay in the cave/lab/wilds. This leads to near-anarchy, where some consider application of logic acceptable means of resolving problems, whereas others consider application of force to be acceptable, and everything in between for most individuals. We've got rules built, again, written on the walls as for how we are/aren't supposed to act, though most don't even know why anymore. We've got relics of statues built all around for supposed apes we're supposed to ape (so to speak). There's a few enlightened among us, but they'll always be drowned out by the din of the crowd. Pain, and shame, are the only true tools we have to keep each other in line, as has been proven time and time and time again.

Now, to specifically answer what this little conversation sparked up, there's a few things that cause us to completely revert to an utterly feral state. Something so instinctual, that it completely overrides what's scribbled on the walls, what monuments are erected for, and what pain can prevent us from doing. One of those is an attack on children, purely baked into our being as part of evolution, to protect members of our species until such time as they can reproduce themselves (at which point they're off the 'protected' list as far as most are concerned). That age shifts around a bit, and it can depend on the person, but you'll not find a person more reviled out of instinct than a child molester. I've known of a few, and I know for a fact one doesn't exist anymore (not by my hand). Perfectly rational apes will become outright savage and tear apart one who threatens the children of the troop, and I don't know if, or how, that will ever change as long as our species is still called 'human'. Future evolution may change this to some extent, but if it does we'll likely be unrecognizable to those living today.

It's also (currently) human to forgive, seek help, and find answers.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

It's also (currently) human to forgive, seek help, and find answers.

Only if you perceive those (relatively) enlightened responses to be embedded in us as humans. If they were, vigilantism, addiction, and ignorance wouldn't exist, respectively. I don't think they are, personally.

 

[bradly1101]

Only if you perceive those (relatively) enlightened responses to be embedded in us as humans. If they were, vigilantism, addiction, and ignorance wouldn't exist, respectively. I don't think they are, personally.

Isn't the ability to evolve embedded in us?

 

[interchange]

Isn't the ability to evolve embedded in us?

As a species, yeah, but individuals do not evolve themselves. They may adapt.

 

[ch33zw1z]

evolve, mentally, physically, or emotionally?

 

[bradly1101]

Yes adaptation. I meant an evolution of thinking, which I believe is possible in every moment. It is obviously true that vigilantism, addiction, and ignorance exist now, but is that an indication of Man's inability to evolve, even quickly? Our communications have improved to the point that these molesters can no longer hide in the shadows. Can not we use our ability to adapt and evolve to utilize this information to grow, to bring about societal change? Isn't that what's happening? Was it adaptation or evolution when we went from men just taking women as they pleased to the institution of marriage (or the creation of any institution)? Some would say it was out of respect for women. Is increased respect an adaptation or evolution?

Adaptations over time lead to evolution. I'm not talking about us growing something new, but to utilize what's already there in more skillful ways. I see that happening more and more. It's one of Man's positive defining qualities. I believe we adapted and evolved to this point.

 

[Moonbeam]

Many things to say, but I believe I know the root cause for your observation. It is our absolute prioritization of self-reliance. It leads us to the equation that we are bad if we cannot do it alone.

This is not the same as realizing that somethings are better off done as a team. That is not incompatible with a core identity of self-reliance. However, if one becomes aware that they are reliant on others in some way instead of simply preferring the aid of others, this is the greatest anxiety someone in modern America could possibly face.

Thus, when something tragic happens that overwhelms us, we are left alone and cannot even accept the aid of another who is willing to help. We are too afraid of recognizing our own weakness.

It is terrible. The strongest person is the one who freely enlists the aid of others, but on the basis of mutual respect and firm accountability for all of one's needs and desires that they are capable of.

The behavior of those who are weak, however, is always in the service of keeping that weakness hidden to themselves. You could not ever expose it to them unless they have some innate value in seeing it for themselves.

So I think we might have success, not via exposing the weakness of failure to move past the rigid ideal of self-reliance, but instead beefing up the value of reliance on others when you are in pain. Not physical pain. Real pain.

I suspect it likely that self-reliance, I sometimes refer to it as the manliness or macho problem is a dominant concealed prejudice that is at the heart of a lot of bigoted assumptions especially men make about what it means to be a healthy person. It is a disease rather than a strength. Robert Bly or something like that, I think a poet, does workshops for men on that. I will check and edit if I have that wrong.

 

[Moonbeam]

Only if you perceive those (relatively) enlightened responses to be embedded in us as humans. If they were, vigilantism, addiction, and ignorance wouldn't exist, respectively. I don't think they are, personally.

Your fundamental ignorance of the true nature of the self derives from the fact that you do not have real self knowledge and thus do not understand the origins of evil. It is this fundamental ignorance that keeps the question of the nature of good and evil alive. If there is a God and or our natural human condition is good, how did we become corrupted or how did a Perfect God let evil into the world. The answer to that, like any other deep truth involves paradox, the resolution of which, have you not personally experienced, can't be explained to you. Consider the following to be the facts, then, which you cannot verify:

There is no good or evil. They are illusions whose reality is created by thought which is the product of language that can create words for things that do not exist, things like good and evil, things that are named and called different from the ONE UNITY in which we have our being. Once these words are imbued with emotional experiences in the form of criticism contempt and pain, as we learn to divide the world up with words as children, we acquire a capacity feel what it means to be put down and told we are worthless. Once that feeling is present, we're fucked, condemned to become egotistical little shits who will do anything to deny it. It is thus that we buy the lie that our true selves are evil and we play that part well, never becoming what was our real human potential. Our real human potential is only achieved rarely by what in India is known as Avatars. Did you know there is a woman from a fishing village in India who controls a billion dollar charity, owns numerous hospitals, and all because she hugs people? God only knows what some folk may be doing who don't want to be know.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

There is no good or evil.

Agreed, morality is subjective. I am, however, atheist, so it's pretty hard for me to even walk with you through your thoughts concerning any God/Gods and their influence (or lack thereof) over me.

Once that feeling is present, we're fucked, condemned to become egotistical little shits who will do anything to deny it.

Not entirely true, some of this use this corruption from adults and peers to better ourselves (actually better ourselves), although that's probably more out of pure spite and resistance than anything else. Point is, we don't all have to end up as shitheads as a result. Choice exists.

Our real human potential is only achieved rarely by what in India is known as Avatars. Did you know there is a woman from a fishing village in India who controls a billion dollar charity, owns numerous hospitals, and all because she hugs people?

How do you know that the ultimate 'potential' for humanity is actions of good? What if we, in the greater scheme of the universe, hold far more potential for 'evil' than 'good'? What if our true purpose (if such a thing exists) is to be the destroyers, not the creators?

God only knows what some folk may be doing who don't want to be know.

Generally, they're fucking horrible to each other. Child raping, peer corrupting, population manipulating, community contaminating, world destroying bastards.

 

[Puffnstuff]

They may adapt.

The perp adapted to the steel bars quite nicely before coming to a final rest as he adapted to the concrete.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Whew... glad the fence is alright.

 

[Moonbeam]

Agreed, morality is subjective. I am, however, atheist, so it's pretty hard for me to even walk with you through your thoughts concerning any God/Gods and their influence (or lack thereof) over me.

Not entirely true, some of this use this corruption from adults and peers to better ourselves (actually better ourselves), although that's probably more out of pure spite and resistance than anything else. Point is, we don't all have to end up as shitheads as a result. Choice exists.

How do you know that the ultimate 'potential' for humanity is actions of good? What if we, in the greater scheme of the universe, hold far more potential for 'evil' than 'good'? What if our true purpose (if such a thing exists) is to be the destroyers, not the creators?

Generally, they're fucking horrible to each other. Child raping, peer corrupting, population manipulating, community contaminating, world destroying bastards.

It's all about math. When you take away everything you are left with only that which can't be taken. Take away the idea that morality is subjective. It isn't subjective one person's idea of good and evil vs another person's, but that they do not exist. Take away your doubt in God. Take away your questions, your belief in choice. Take away the idea of knowing. Take away the notion that your opinions are right or mean anything. Take away everything and what are you left with? You will find a monkey sitting where you are and he has a banana. It could be a pumpkin or a stick.