[PCWORLD] Intel approached AMD about access to Mantle

[MTDEW]

But you can turn effects like TressFX and PhysX off if they arent as optimized for the hardware you're using vs the competitors hardware.
You can choose to use Mantle or directx.
You cannot turn off gameworks optimizations.
That is the difference.

Its not about AMD or Nvidia optimizing for their own particular hardware...that's fine and is expected.

Its about preventing the opposition from doing the same.

 

[monstercameron]

I think people are misunderstanding what Huddy's comments were around Mantle and the implications of them.

- He said that the API would hopefully by the end of the year be open for others to implement without licence. He did not say that Mantle would be open sourced, on the contrary he said they would maintain control (the exact opposite).

I dont see what maintaining control has to do with the licensing of mantle[which seems to be going royalty free], an example is android, which is open source yet google maintains absolute control. So no, not the exact opposite

- He also said that with Mantle by maintaining control they could release hardware and drivers and Mantle the same day to allow the market access to new hardware features immediately. He did not say that the IHVs would be able to do the same, he actually said the opposite, that AMD maintained control of Mantle.

I am sure he didn't say that AMD would block others from implementing the driver so it is way too early to naysay and spin this to a negative.

Thus the implication is that any other IHV that got involved in Mantle could be dramatically hurt by AMD. AMD could introduce new API calls for hardware their competitors don't have or can't implement efficiently and this could impact them for years. The competitors have the right to implement the API but not have any input in how it moves forward, thus AMD's agenda is the only agenda that makes it into the API.

AMD wants to design the api for their hardware, this much is known. Whether
this will prevent other companies from implementing them efficiently is an unknown and unlikely as It could also hurt AMD's ability to port mantle to newer architectures.

So what does that mean? Well Mantle is a proprietry API, its neither free or open it simple doesn't require a licence to implement it (does DirectX require one? Probably not).

I dont think you understand what proprietary means.

Mantle is a bad deal for all the competitors of AMD if they were to implement it, none of them should agree to those terms. Under these conditions no standards body would be willing to ratify it either, the key point about a standard is that all participants in that standard get to input into it and evolve it. Standards don't have to be open source or free but they do have to have a committee to ensure fair and equal progress. Mantle is not suitable for standardisation in any way.

Mantle is an API, it is perfect for standardization. Unless you are saying tha Opengl and dx cant be standards.

It is clear that you don't like what AMD and mantle has been and is currently doing for this industry because most of the points you brought up FUD

 

[ShintaiDK]

But you can turn effects like TressFX and PhysX off if they arent as optimized for the hardware you're using vs the competitors hardware.
You can choose to use Mantle or directx.
You cannot turn off gameworks optimizations.
That is the difference.

Its not about AMD or Nvidia optimizing for their own particular hardware...that's fine and is expected.

Its about preventing the opposition from doing the same.

So where do I turn off Forward+ optimizations for example?

 

[BrightCandle]

Of course you can turn off game works. Its mostly fur and anti aliasing and special add on physics effects. Its absolutely possible to turn it off. I just don't think that is really a good argument for why its OK.

Both these companies are cheating, lying and fighting in a way that hurts us the customer. It needs to stop.

 

[monstercameron]

So where do I turn off Forward+ optimizations for example?

what does forward+ have to do with gameworks or mantle?

 

[ShintaiDK]

what does forward+ have to do with gameworks or mantle?

Its brand specific optimizations, just as the 2 others. And its just one of many. But for some reason they are not in focus, since its not mention by the PR people.

 

[MTDEW]

Of course you can turn off game works. Its mostly fur and anti aliasing and special add on physics effects. Its absolutely possible to turn it off. I just don't think that is really a good argument for why its OK.

Both these companies are cheating, lying and fighting in a way that hurts us the customer. It needs to stop.

Exactly and well said.
That's why i rarely participate in the VC&G discussions anymore.
While everyone is too busy arguing with each other over AMD vs Nvidia, in the end we're still the ones getting screwed...and nobody seems to care about that part anymore, they just care that their side wins the argument.
Its a waste of time even trying to defend the gamers side.

 

[3DVagabond]

But you can turn effects like TressFX and PhysX off if they arent as optimized for the hardware you're using vs the competitors hardware.
You can choose to use Mantle or directx.
You cannot turn off gameworks optimizations.
That is the difference.

Its not about AMD or Nvidia optimizing for their own particular hardware...that's fine and is expected.

Its about preventing the opposition from doing the same.

You don't have to turn off tressFX. The source code is available. You can optimize your drivers quite easily. That's why AMD wants the source code for Game works to be made public. Also so you can see if there are any shens going on that are there to purposely slow down the competition.

 

[monstercameron]

Its brand specific optimizations, just as the 2 others. And its just one of many. But for some reason they are not in focus, since its not mention by the PR people.

not seeing the connection:
Mantle - API
Forward+ - Rendering technique
Gameworks - Proprietary middleware

 

[monstercameron]

Exactly and well said.
That's why i rarely participate in the VC&G discussions anymore.
While everyone is too busy arguing with each other over AMD vs Nvidia, in the end we're still the ones getting screwed...and nobody seems to care about that part anymore, they just care that their side wins the argument.
Its a waste of time even trying to defend the gamers side.

I dont consider us "getting screwed," we are now getting more gpu performance with less overhead with new apis, tonnes of middleware packages and more features [shadowplay, trueaudio, etc]

 

[cytg111]

Mantle is a bad deal for all the competitors of AMD if they were to implement it, none of them should agree to those terms..

Scenario : Mantle vs NVAPI. Abandon DirectX/3D all together. Would it be so bad? It Would open op other platforms, faster to market with new features, direct competition, no waiting for ms release cycles etc. Sure two code paths for rendering, but manageable.

 

[zlatan]

So where do I turn off Forward+ optimizations for example?

In Dirt: Showdown if you set the Advanced Lighting option to off, than the engine will use the tradicional forward rendering path.
But Forward+ is a very useful technology. Several upcoming titles will use this kind of render, even Witcher 3. The new CryEngine is also optimized for tiled lighting.

 

[MTDEW]

You don't have to turn off tressFX. The source code is available. You can optimize your drivers quite easily. That's why AMD wants the source code for Game works to be made public. Also so you can see if there are any shens going on that are there to purposely slow down the competition.

You're right I completely forgot about that.
I played Tomb Raider on a 7950 and never played it again on my 670 after Nvidia had a chance to optimize it for their hardware to see how it ran.

Scenario : Mantle vs NVAPI. Abandon DirectX/3D all together. Would it be so bad? It Would open op other platforms, faster to market with new features, direct competition, no waiting for ms release cycles etc. Sure two code paths for rendering, but manageable.

That would be horrible.
Then you'll have vendor specific exclusive titles that can only be played if you own the right GPU.

People tend to forget that directx was considered a godsend a few years ago because it established a standard that allowed you to run the software on any hardware that supported directx.

I remember having a rig with a TNT card and Voodoo2 cards in the same rig just ensure I could play any game..LOL

 

[sontin]

Now you're reaching just to suit your own agenda.
Name one time AMD paid a developer to cut the directx api path from a game.
Or anyone mentioning such a thing.

That was an example. I can name two DX games - Dragon Age 2 and Tomb Raider - which were broken on release and under the Gaming Evolved banner.

I'll ask again....Name one time Mantle prevented others from optimizing a game for their hardware like gameworks does?

Every Gaming Evolved title.
I mean i can do the same: Name one game in which AMD was forbidden to optimize everything outside of "Gameworks".

 

[itsmydamnation]

That was an example. I can name two DX games - Dragon Age 2 and Tomb Raider - which were broken on release and under the Gaming Evolved banner.

and what part of those games was an AMD black box that couldn't be modified?

Your basically lying by deliberately misaligning the contention!

being a TWIMTBP, or gaming evolved isn't the issue, implementation lock out is. TresFX source code is PUBLISHED for example http://developer.amd.com/wordpress/media/2013/05/TressFX11_v1.0.zip
so please name explicitly what part of mantle locks out Nvidia!

 

[MTDEW]

That was an example. I can name two DX games - Dragon Age 2 and Tomb Raider - which were broken on release and under the Gaming Evolved banner.



Every Gaming Evolved title.
I mean i can do the same: Name one game in which AMD was forbidden to optimize everything outside of "Gameworks".

Get over yourself. (i'll take the infraction I dont care)
Gaming evolved titles do not prevent Nvidia from optimizing for their hardware.

And the argument was that AMD is being prevented from optimizing code that is unaccessable due to gameworks....not oustside of gameworks.

You can waste your time arguing with yourself now cuz I'm done responding to this crap...Good luck.. I hope you win! :thumbsup:

 

[Creig]

No, what we complain about is when a company says it's being open because all this closed proprietary stuff sucks...and then is not open.

People who say, straight up, that they're being proprietary we accept much more readily when it turns out to not be open, because it's not a surprise.

AMD has talked about two things now where it claimed it was open and wonderful, and then have turned out to not be open at all. FreeSync, and now it seems from the Huddy interview, Mantle. That's not a good thing, for them to make major bones, publicly, about how wonderful a thing it is for their stuff to be open and then have it turn out to be not the case.

I'm guessing you never even bothered to read the PCWorld article.

I know that Intel have approached us for access to the Mantle interfaces, et cetera," Huddy said. " And right now, we've said, give us a month or two, this is a closed beta, and we'll go into the 1.0 [public release] phase sometime this year, which is less than five months if you count forward from June. They have asked for access, and we will give it to them when we open this up, and we'll give it to anyone who wants to participate in this.

 

[guskline]

Of course you can turn off game works. Its mostly fur and anti aliasing and special add on physics effects. Its absolutely possible to turn it off. I just don't think that is really a good argument for why its OK.

Both these companies are cheating, lying and fighting in a way that hurts us the customer. It needs to stop.

BrightCandle: Excellent observation. I found a used Sapphire R9 290 Tri-X video card for an excellent price and bought it. I replaced the PNY GTX 680 which I was using in my AMD rig (Asus Sabertooth 990FX with 8350 @4.6Ghz 16G of DDR3-1600). I had the GTX 680 watercooled and overclocked but truthfully the Sapphire R9 290 Tri-X beat it at stock speeds by a nice margin in benchmarks. I have been very loyal to Nvidia video cards for the last 2 years since moving from AMD 6970s. I skipped the 7000 series but I must say this R9 290 impresses me and the air cooler impresses me even more. No need ( or desire) to WC it.

To follow along with your point, the incessant back and forth between AMD and Nvidia has lured many (including me at times) into the fray. Being lucky enough to own a GTX780 Classified and now a R9 290, I can honestly say the difference in game play for the monitors I use is miniscule.

At least I can now play around with Mantle!:thumbsup:

 

[frozentundra123456]

and what part of those games was an AMD black box that couldn't be modified?

Your basically lying by deliberately misaligning the contention!

being a TWIMTBP, or gaming evolved isn't the issue, implementation lock out is. TresFX source code is PUBLISHED for example http://developer.amd.com/wordpress/media/2013/05/TressFX11_v1.0.zip
so please name explicitly what part of mantle locks out Nvidia!

It runs only on AMD hardware. That is the most efficient "lock out" possible. And despite their promises, they have not released the source code yet. In any case it is irrelevant since even if they did, it only runs on AMD hardware. So they can make themselves look good by supposedly being "open" while effectively locking out the competition. This is why I find Huddy's whining so hypocritical.

 

[itsmydamnation]

It runs only on AMD hardware. That is the most efficient "lock out" possible. And despite their promises, they have not released the source code yet. In any case it is irrelevant since even if they did, it only runs on AMD hardware. So they can make themselves look good by supposedly being "open" while effectively locking out the competition.

locked out of what? what can't NV do? take the example of AA in Batman: Arkham Asylum, name one thing mantle has stopped NV being able to have enabled within a game.

This is why I find Huddy's whining so hypocritical.

no, you just find it convenient. When mantle reaches open release and its still not the case then you have a point, but at the moment you seem to completely ignore this point because it undermines your position.

edit: now its time for bed ()

 

[Erenhardt]

frozen, tressfx runs on any dx11 hardware, doesn't it?

 

[Techhog]

While I'm disgusted with AMD for lying about their future intentions with Mantle, to be fair, it's an API designed to be lower-level than DX11. It's designed around GCN, and can't even run on AMD's older architectures. Even if it were open-source, I don't see how it could be expected to run as well on other architectures as it does on GCN when the entire point is for it to take advantage of GCN. I'm surprised enough that it runs as well as it does with Intel CPUs.

Gameworks, however, locks AMD out of DX optimization, meaning that Gameworks games will always run badly on AMD GPUs at release until AMD has time to put out a good driver for the game. The average consumer won't know this and, as a result, will assume that it's due to AMD making bad drivers, and thus will switch to Nvidia on their next upgrade. It takes a problem that AMD has and makes it look worse while also making it harder to fix. Mantle, as stated, has no effect whatsoever on Nvidia or Intel, and Nvidia is still competitive with AMD in games which use Mantle.

Long story short, it's like this:
1. Mantle running best on GCN makes sense
2. Advanced PhysX only running on Nvidia GPUs makes sense for the same reasons as Mantle running on GCN (though, in this case, not allowing a dedicated Nvidia PhysX card with an AMD main is BS)
3. Gameworks, on the other hand, is essentially sabotage and anti-competitive.
EDIT: 4. TressFX, from what I've seen, runs just as well on Nvidia as it does on AMD, so that's a non-issue.

So, are the people attacking Mantle as a lockout basically saying it shouldn't exist? If so, should you not say the same thing about advanced PhysX?

 

[monstercameron]

It runs only on AMD hardware. That is the most efficient "lock out" possible. And despite their promises, they have not released the source code yet. In any case it is irrelevant since even if they did, it only runs on AMD hardware. So they can make themselves look good by supposedly being "open" while effectively locking out the competition. This is why I find Huddy's whining so hypocritical.

If it gets released then and your claims are substantiated maybe you could cry hypocrit but as it stands you have no grounds to claim any hypocrisy.

The thing literally isn't done yet!

 

[sontin]

and what part of those games was an AMD black box that couldn't be modified?

In both games nVidia had no access to the source code of the game prio the launch. That is one point of AMD's accusation:

Hallock explains that the core problem is deeper: “Participation in the Gameworks program often precludes the developer from accepting AMD suggestions that would improve performance directly in the game code—the most desirable form of optimization.”

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonev...d-potentially-the-entire-pc-gaming-ecosystem/

being a TWIMTBP, or gaming evolved isn't the issue, implementation lock out is. TresFX source code is PUBLISHED for example http://developer.amd.com/wordpress/media/2013/05/TressFX11_v1.0.zip
so please name explicitly what part of mantle locks out Nvidia!

TressFX was published after Tomb Raider. It was a lock out of nVidia.
And Mantle runs only on AMD hardware. And with "full control" of the API AMD can easily "lock put" or harm any other partner with unannounced changes in the API after they "opened" it.

BTW: Name one Gameworks game which locks out AMD from optimizing for it.
You cant critize Gameworks for locking AMD out when you are still behind Mantle. That doesnt make sense.

 

[Mand]

When you finally come to understand the difference between Adaptive Sync (the VESA open standard) and Freesync (AMD's software/hardware solution using adaptive sync that can only work with radeons) you will find yourself in a better place

They've said many, many times that FreeSync is this wonderful open thing. Except, it's a total lie.

I understand the difference. Do you?