[PcPer] Some mantle news from GDC

[AnandThenMan]

They did get Mantle to a working state with support in several games, and with the advent of DirectX 12 and Vulkan, I say, mission accomplished.

Almost, AMD should have charged licensing fees, or found some other way to immediately monetize Mantle. As it stands they gave it away with the hope of it somehow selling more AMD hardware long term. Sketchy way to run a business.

 

[loccothan]

Mantle is Dead ? where? Please turn on the Inteligence ! (its a little swith on back of your Head ;-)

Mantle will be For AMD Games Evolved Program: CryEngine, FrostBite3 etc. (all the time)

Mantle is now DX12
Mantle is now Volcan
Mantle is Still Open
Mantle is in Win, Linux and Mac
nV is in the Mantle Program also ;-) (DX12 + Volcan ;-)
Future Consoles PS5 and XboX will be AMD GPU+CPU

All Next-Gen begins with GCN + Mantle -> Deal with it
"
"Khronos Acknowledges Mantle's Start of Vulkan"
"Many companies have made great contributions to Vulkan, including AMD who contributed Mantle. Being able to start with the Mantle design definitely helped us get rolling quickly – but there has been a lot of design iteration, not the least making sure that Vulkan can run across many different GPU architectures. Vulkan is definitely a working group design now."

So in short, the Vulkan API was definitely started with Mantle and grew from there as more stakeholders added their opinion. Vulkan is obviously different than Mantle in significant ways now, such as its use of SPIR-V for its shading language (rather than HLSL) -> That's Volcan

DX12 was also started by AMD Mantle, AMD Working together with MS, Ideas Contribution in DX12 by AMD was 85% of the code

THX, Greets to all o'ya

 

[geoxile]

Almost, AMD should have charged licensing fees, or found some other way to immediately monetize Mantle. As it stands they gave it away with the hope of it somehow selling more AMD hardware long term. Sketchy way to run a business.

I can't say this enough. Mantle is the creation of EA DICE and Johan Andersson. AMD is their partner, not the sole proprietor of mantle.

 

[AnandThenMan]

I can't say this enough. Mantle is the creation of EA DICE and Johan Andersson. AMD is their partner, not the sole proprietor of mantle.

You have that backwards, Mantle was developed by AMD in cooperation with DICE. AMD controls Mantle going forward.

 

[geoxile]

You have that backwards, Mantle was developed by AMD in cooperation with DICE. AMD controls Mantle going forward.

No, I don't.

http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meld...ber-AMDs-3D-Schnittstelle-Mantle-2045398.html

c't: The Community and even journalists were surprised by the announcement of the 3D interface Mantle end of September-2013. When work began on Mantle? Andersson: About five years ago we started to think about it. Back then we had already gained experience with consoles and also wanted for the PC, a similar type of access and programmability. We have spoken with several companies, including Intel and Nvidia.


c't: So you have virtually laid the foundation for Mantle? Andersson: Of course not I alone, but I was probably the one who has placed the most stuff. As we develop high-end games for the PC, we have a certain influence in the industry. Mantle meant for us at DICE to create a completely different rendering backend. For AMD, it was to build a driver team that puts its resources and time in the development of an alternative 3D interface. These are all great steps and I have to pay respect to AMD that they have implemented my suggestions. For none of the other producers did.

Johan was the one that devised the spec and approached companies to bring it to a platform. I'm sure AMD had a part in designing the spec as well, but it was Johan who created it, devised most of it, and pushed it to companies. AMD came in later and took Johan up on his offer.

AMD being in charge of further development doesn't mean they have the rights to license the tech out to other companies for a fee.

 

[destrekor]

No, I don't.

http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meld...ber-AMDs-3D-Schnittstelle-Mantle-2045398.html
Johan was the one that devised the spec and approached companies to bring it to a platform. I'm sure AMD had a part in designing the spec as well, but it was Johan who created it, devised most of it, and pushed it to companies.

AMD being in charge of further development doesn't mean they have the rights to license the tech out to other companies for a fee.

I would argue that he came up with the structure and design, but AMD's team likely had more to do with the actual coding of the API.

AMD had to take knowledge gained with the Xbox One's API to carry out the vision. I'd argue it was definitely a shared development, with AMD on the API itself while DICE helped shape the portions with which the developers interface.

 

[S.H.O.D.A.N.]

AMD being in charge of further development doesn't mean they have the rights to license the tech out to other companies for a fee.

You think they did all that work for a random guy out of the goodness of their hearts, with nothing expected in return, because he had a good idea (an idea, probably nothing more, since the code was built by AMD)?

He even thanks AMD for "implementing his suggestions" in your own quote.

 

[geoxile]

I would argue that he came up with the structure and design, but AMD's team likely had more to do with the actual coding of the API.

AMD had to take knowledge gained with the Xbox One's API to carry out the vision. I'd argue it was definitely a shared development, with AMD on the API itself while DICE helped shape the portions with which the developers interface.

For a graphics API spec like DX and Mantle, the bulk of the work is structure and design. Code means renderers and drivers. Drivers being the hardware manufacturer's responsibility in any case.

You think they did all that work for a random guy out of the goodness of their hearts, with nothing expected in return, because he had a good idea (an idea, probably nothing more, since the code was built by AMD)?

He even thanks AMD for "implementing his suggestions" in your own quote.

Oh boy. He outright says he did most of the work laying out the spec. Implementing in software development almost always means code, which for AMD means implementing stuff in drivers. AMD was the only company that was willing to work with him, so of course he gives thanks to them for giving the spec a platform. A random guy? The graphics lead of EA DICE's engine team is a random guy? I've heard it all but this takes the case. AMD gets what it wants from Mantle regardless, lower CPU overhead -> more competitive CPUs.

 

[EvilNodZ]

I think it was pretty obvious from the start which direction mantle was heading.

Mantle reincarnated as 2 new API's achieves 2 things for AMD that they couldnt ever achieve as Mantle alone

1) Larger TAM for AMD to target its CPU/APU/GPUs with Vulkan available in mobile platforms and O.S agnostic markets.

2) Lower Driver Overhead = More competitive with Intel Processors In games = more gamers buying AMD CPU/APU's

All these create more revenue for AMD for the paltry sum it costs to pay a few developers to create an API.

The games developers got what they want out of it.

Low level API and its now easy to port games across different systems.

The other winner is Nvidia they get access to the new API's being part of both groups that shape them. But that is fine as they have always been on an even footing with Nvidia in API's and process advancements etc etc

AMD is not on an even footing with Intel and thats where they need these API's to impact the most. They will sell more gaming CPU/APU's for it.

It looks like the biggest loser here is Intel losing its IPC games advantage on every single market where gamers are concerned

If you ask me it was a vary smart move by AMD.

Good for gamers
Good for developers
Good for every chip maker apart from Intel
How do you put a price on that?

 

[Silverforce11]

If you ask me it was a vary smart move by AMD.

Good for gamers
Good for developers
Good for every chip maker apart from Intel
How do you put a price on that?

It's also good for Intel.

Their low end stuff gets to be faster, so gamers who went with AMD based on it being cheap (there's no other sane reason to go with an AMD CPU) will have a good reason to get a cheap entry Intel instead. It'll be faster in games and still pwn AMD CPUs outside of gaming.

 

[AnandThenMan]

Intel's low end stuff has a paltry core count so AMD with Mantle wins here.

 

[EvilNodZ]

Intel's low end stuff has a paltry core count so AMD with Mantle wins here.

I agree here too AMD benefits much more from the low end stuff than intel does. If its a choice between an AMD APU and an Intel CPU/IGP for a gaming rig then DX12/Vulkan takes the CPU performance out of the equation AMD GPU wins.

 

[destrekor]

Intel's low end stuff has a paltry core count so AMD with Mantle wins here.

Core count, much like core frequency, is not the entire tale.

Much of Intel's lower end products can still compete or outcompete AMD CPUs with more cores. AMD went early with high core counts to have a marketable edge on Intel's chips that were stuck at quad-core, but still it did not matter.

 

[frozentundra123456]

It seems like a win for AMD in the cpu department, how competitive it will make them remains to be seen, but they should be more competitive at least.

The other side of the coin is dgpus, and here, I dont see how anyone can say DX12 is a win for AMD. It takes away Mantle's competitive advantage vs nVidia, which if AMD has any business sense at all, was one of the big reasons to promote mantle. Even if it makes APUs more competent for low end gaming, that will only take away from dgpu sales.

 

[Fox5]

I would argue that he came up with the structure and design, but AMD's team likely had more to do with the actual coding of the API.

AMD had to take knowledge gained with the Xbox One's API to carry out the vision. I'd argue it was definitely a shared development, with AMD on the API itself while DICE helped shape the portions with which the developers interface.

EA got their inspiration from Sony. It wasn't the Xbox One api that was copied.

 

[blastingcap]

2) Lower Driver Overhead = More competitive with Intel Processors In games = more gamers buying AMD CPU/APU's

I think you are very optimistic. Many games will be on DX11 or lower. Even if DX12 has rapid adoption, why would you buy the hotter, power-hungry AMD CPU that has less cushion against obsolescence than the cooler, more-efficient Intel CPU that will last longer before needing to be swapped out? Even among APUs, Intel has made up a lot of ground, and those who are serious about mobile would probably spring for a discrete Nvidia Maxwell GPU anyway.

 

[Red Hawk]

I think you are very optimistic. Many games will be on DX11 or lower. Even if DX12 has rapid adoption, why would you buy the hotter, power-hungry AMD CPU that has less cushion against obsolescence than the cooler, more-efficient Intel CPU that will last longer before needing to be swapped out? Even among APUs, Intel has made up a lot of ground, and those who are serious about mobile would probably spring for a discrete Nvidia Maxwell GPU anyway.

Because AMD processors are unlocked, have better multithreading and multitasking performance, and generally give you more bang for your buck?

 

[HurleyBird]

Core count, much like core frequency, is not the entire tale.

What he's trying to point out is that Mantle/DX12 respond much better to multi-threading, which therefore elevates a budged AMD CPU with four cores more than an Intel budget CPU with only two.

 

[EvilNodZ]

I think you are very optimistic. Many games will be on DX11 or lower. Even if DX12 has rapid adoption, why would you buy the hotter, power-hungry AMD CPU that has less cushion against obsolescence than the cooler, more-efficient Intel CPU that will last longer before needing to be swapped out? Even among APUs, Intel has made up a lot of ground, and those who are serious about mobile would probably spring for a discrete Nvidia Maxwell GPU anyway.

Yes it wont help them with everything like dx 9/10/11 but it atleast sets them off for a fair fight against intel in the future when more games do use DX12. I really dont see Nvidia having much discrete presence in future in laptops & Mobiles. Even though they are doing exceptionally well the now.

Mobile is a rapidly shrinking market with Intel slowly upping their game and AMD's Carizzo looking competitive with both companys looking to shut out Nvidia from the mobile market. Im sure after a few more revisions from each company Nvidia will seriously feel the pinch with low/mid tier GPU's.

Yes we will still get high end discrete mobile from Nvidia but i think in future that will be about it.

 

[frozentundra123456]

I have to disagree. Unless AMD comes out with a much more power efficient architecture, it is going to be amd that has no presence in mobile dgpus. And i still dont believe we are going to see igpus from either amd or intel at least for a few years that will provide a robust solution for gaming.

 

[EvilNodZ]

Yeah AMD needs to be more efficient but we will see if they are aiming for more efficiency with their 300 series then we will get a clearer picture how i competes with maxwell.

I don't think we will see any excellent excellent APU's from AMD until 2016 with the new stuff they have planned, but carrizo seems to be aiming in the right direction with low power systems & efficient use of resources we will see how the oem's react to it before it can really be seen as successful.AMD really needs carizzo to be successful, its all they really have for 2015 mainstream. I don't hold much hope for kaveri refresh platform on desktop will tide them over much.

Intel on the other hand seems to be 2-3 years behind on GPU efficiency, even with a superior manufacturing process so Nvidia will still have plenty time push mobile discrete GPU's.

 

[blastingcap]

Because AMD processors are unlocked, have better multithreading and multitasking performance, and generally give you more bang for your buck?

Is electricity free where you live?

 

[Red Hawk]

Is electricity free where you live?

I don't pay for it, no. :sneaky: But that doesn't seem like a counter to my points.

 

[blastingcap]

I don't pay for it, no. :sneaky: But that doesn't seem like a counter to my points.

It is. Add up the extra wattage over enough time and the price difference between AMD and Intel CPUs disappears. And that's not even counting greenhouse gas emissions if you are one to take those into account.

Look, we all want a healthy AMD to compete with Intel. Competition is good for consumers. But AMD is not very competitive right now, so I'd rather that people like YOU take one for the team. Thank you for keeping AMD alive so I don't have to. Oh wait, you have Intel CPUs, too!

AMD's products are too far ahead of their time. Taking advantage of more than a few cores is not trivial from what I understand... it takes talent to properly balance load among many cores. PS4/XBO may force that style of programming but it'll take time for people to get accustomed to it.

Rather than buy a hot, slow AMD CPU that has to rely on things like Mantle just to catch up to Intel in games, I would rather have the cooler, less power hungry Intel chip that gives me higher IPC and generally better performance in today's games and those in the near future... especially since I tend to buy games years after they are released. For instance even if we see a deluge of DX12 games in 2016 (not bloody likely), I would probably not play those 2016 games until 2018 or 2019 anyway. More realistically DX12 will take longer to displace DX11, in which case I'm looking at 2020+. I'm sorry but I am NOT buying a hot, power-hungry AMD CPU today, if it's going to take 5+ years for it to finally achieve parity with an Intel CPU that I can buy today for not THAT much more money. And the money difference will shrink over time via energy efficiency.

I'm not alone in this thinking, judging by AMD's paltry market share among gamers.

 

[3DVagabond]

It confounds me how people can talk about power usage and then O/C their CPU/GPU.

It's similar to talking greenhouse gasses then buying made in China products where they just dump tons more pollution into the air than if the same product was manufactured in a Western country.

Talk, talk, it's all talk.