PC video game where you are a mage

[taltamir]

I am looking to find a good game where you are a powerful wizard instead of a crappy wizard. The definition of wizard is... flexible.
Other than age of wonder, masters of magic, lords of magic, populous the begining and avencast I can't think of any. And avencast wasn't that hot of a game.

I am bored of having to always play a dumb steroid monkey who swings an axe or a sword at enemies all the time. (or playing a mage that is an utter weakling)

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Moderator allisolm

 

[dighn]

any D&D game like baldur's gate or neverwinter nights.

 

[tasmanian]

mage = glass cannon. Its just a fact.

 

[taltamir]

any dnd game is the exact kind of thing I am referring to when I say that the mages suck. In the conversion to the PC all the special abilities that made mages powerful were removed, and to begin with in dnd they are meant as party support not as a solo class. And then to add a final nail in the coffin of playing a mage in those games, they went and decided to overpower fighters.

1. Max HP per level unbalanced towards fighters
2. In nwn magical items giving AC bonuses stack with physical armor (bracers of armor give enchantment to armor, instead of only the higher of them or your armor applying)
3. Flight is NEVER applied, dnd mages are supposed to fly above combat when they are not hittable
4. protection from arrows no applied / properly applied
5. bosses immune to save or die
6. crafting horribly broken, no incremental upgrades of items
7. teleportation gone
8. permance gone
9. Wish and its inherant bonuses to abilities gone
10. in nwn ability boosting items stack (gloves of str+6 and belt of str +6 = str +12)
11. you fight hordes of "weak" enemies in those games, which is terrible for a solo mage.
12. nwn1 haste giving items are always on.
13. extreme amount of loot means that you can buy potions / items that give non mages all the mage abilities via items.

And so on and so on.

You CAN play a caster, but why would you WANT to? they are just weak and pathetic. Not to mention that in DND the very notion of hit die means that fighters are god modding, for some reason they can take dozens of stab wounds and keep on fighting with no ill effects. Plus the venacian system of spellcasting is just lame.

Note that in all but one of the games I listed your mage is a civilization leader, he builds armies, researches powerful terrain altering spells, summons (permanently) great monsters like dragons and demons to fight on the battlefield, and so on.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: tasmanian
mage = glass cannon. Its just a fact.

I'd LOVE a mage who is a glass canon, but they AREN'T glass canons, they are glass pea shooters.

A warrior has more health, more amor, AND does more damage, doesn't need as much downtime, and so on..

Seeing a greatsword weilding warrior do 30 damage per hit, 60 on crit (1/5 chance), 5 attacks per round, with infinite great cleaves (free attacks whenever he kills someone), he disrupts all the mages spells as they desperately try to buff themselves, he takes everything down in a hit or two...

Everything EXCEPT mages has spell resistance, good saves, and often time flat out immunity / reduction of any damage the mage can do.

And if they DO get hit, that fireball does 1d6 damage per caster level, any warrior has 1d10 + CON hitpoints per level. At which point they down one el cheapo healing potion and they are as good as new, the mage needs to wait a whole day to get his fireball back. (assuming he made his concentration check to fire it off while getting wailed at with a greatsword taking 30 damage per hit)

 

[dighn]

personally I found mages to be plenty powerful in the D&D games. but seems like you've got a lot of experience with this and are looking for overwhelming power, I don't know then.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: dighn
personally I found mages to be plenty powerful in the D&D games. but seems like you've got a lot of experience with this and are looking for overwhelming power, I don't know then.

heh, in pen and paper they are GREAT... you can completely break the world economy early on, and at level 21 you move to the astral dimension (immortality as long as you stay there), create your own dimension, create your own angels, create your own mortals of choice (or import, but id say go with create so you are really their god), and pretty soon you are a god (their gods are fueled by faith, when enough mortals believe you are a god, you are one). the out of combat roleplay experience is golden, the familiar, the teleporting, the scrying... none of it exists in CRPGs based on DND, where mages are just crappy archers.

But no, I am not necessarily thinking powergaming. A non min maxes warrior annihilates a mage, a min maxed warrior has an even greater gap to a min maxed mage. Sure you can make a powerful mage that wipes the floor with the a poorly built warrior. But mages are just a whole lot of extra work for an extra penalty in power.

One of my biggest pet peves of mages is that they rely on other mages to do magic stuff for them... (Oh thank you generic nature mage for lifting that ward blocking the way... why dont you join my quest? WHAT? you are only a level 10 nature mage while I am level 20? why did I even need your help?)

 

[wkabel23]

let me know if you find a good game...i'm always underwhelmed at the power of magi in games.

 

[Taejin]

this is somewhat of a tangent to the original topic, but that's why I admire/enjoy DotA so much; int types are pretty well balanced vs str and agi, as long as you are playing non -em games.

 

[dighn]

Originally posted by: taltamir

Originally posted by: dighn
personally I found mages to be plenty powerful in the D&D games. but seems like you've got a lot of experience with this and are looking for overwhelming power, I don't know then.

heh, in pen and paper they are GREAT... you can completely break the world economy early on, and at level 21 you move to the astral dimension (immortality as long as you stay there), create your own dimension, create your own angels, create your own mortals of choice (or import, but id say go with create so you are really their god), and pretty soon you are a god (their gods are fueled by faith, when enough mortals believe you are a god, you are one). the out of combat roleplay experience is golden, the familiar, the teleporting, the scrying... none of it exists in CRPGs based on DND, where mages are just crappy archers.

But no, I am not necessarily thinking powergaming. A non min maxes warrior annihilates a mage, a min maxed warrior has an even greater gap to a min maxed mage. Sure you can make a powerful mage that wipes the floor with the a poorly built warrior. But mages are just a whole lot of extra work for an extra penalty in power.

One of my biggest pet peves of mages is that they rely on other mages to do magic stuff for them... (Oh thank you generic nature mage for lifting that ward blocking the way... why dont you join my quest? WHAT? you are only a level 10 nature mage while I am level 20? why did I even need your help?)

That does sound rather fun. It's always annoyed me that in these D&D CRPGs, you read about all these powerful wizards who could lift mountains etc, but in actual game play, you end up with a list of stock spells and can barely hold your own against common thugs, even at high levels. Of course I realize they have to deal with the constraints of a computer game (balance, effort in content creation) but I didn't know the P&P versions were that much different.

 

[RedArmy]

You'd probably get a better response if this was in PC gaming. Just sayin'...

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Originally posted by: taltamir

Originally posted by: tasmanian
mage = glass cannon. Its just a fact.

I'd LOVE a mage who is a glass canon, but they AREN'T glass canons, they are glass pea shooters.

A warrior has more health, more amor, AND does more damage, doesn't need as much downtime, and so on..

Seeing a greatsword weilding warrior do 30 damage per hit, 60 on crit (1/5 chance), 5 attacks per round, with infinite great cleaves (free attacks whenever he kills someone), he disrupts all the mages spells as they desperately try to buff themselves, he takes everything down in a hit or two...

Everything EXCEPT mages has spell resistance, good saves, and often time flat out immunity / reduction of any damage the mage can do.

And if they DO get hit, that fireball does 1d6 damage per caster level, any warrior has 1d10 + CON hitpoints per level. At which point they down one el cheapo healing potion and they are as good as new, the mage needs to wait a whole day to get his fireball back. (assuming he made his concentration check to fire it off while getting wailed at with a greatsword taking 30 damage per hit)

I'm currently playing Runes of Magic as a mage. In the party I joined yesterday was an equal level tank, and some slightly lower other players (including one other mage). I was doing about the same amount of damage as the rest combined.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: Taejin
this is somewhat of a tangent to the original topic, but that's why I admire/enjoy DotA so much; int types are pretty well balanced vs str and agi, as long as you are playing non -em games.

what is DOTA?

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: Taejin
this is somewhat of a tangent to the original topic, but that's why I admire/enjoy DotA so much; int types are pretty well balanced vs str and agi, as long as you are playing non -em games.

what is DOTA?[/quote]

Originally posted by: RedArmy
You'd probably get a better response if this was in PC gaming. Just sayin'...

There is a PC gaming section? i missed it.

Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
I'm currently playing Runes of Magic as a mage. In the party I joined yesterday was an equal level tank, and some slightly lower other players (including one other mage). I was doing about the same amount of damage as the rest combined.

I am not a fan of MMO, but Ill give it a try, thanks for the recommendation.

 

[DaTT]

World of Warcraft? A properly spec'd mage destroys stuff.

 

[EvilComputer92]

Oblivion mages are pretty powerful. Way more so than dnd ones. It was the first game where I actually thought high level mages were actually a threat.

 

[TheVrolok]

... in damn near every D&D game I've played a properly put together/played mage is easily as good as if not better than a warrior/melee class.

 

[Vortex22]

I doubt it's the kind of game you're looking for, but mages can be really powerful in WoW.

 

[shortylickens]

D&D is the worst example of power mage because you have to get an assload of experience and you are still pretty limited even at high levels.
There are plenty of tabletop RPG's with true power mages but thats not what this thread is about.

I noticed the game Sacrifice is missing from the OP's list. I suggest he try that.

Also in some of the hack'n'slash RPG's like Diablo and Titan Quest it is possible to build a power mage but you still have the same problem as D&D. You need to get up to a very high level and make smart decisions about point distribution and ability selection.

 

[Zenoth]

The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion... ? No?

Even if not in vanilla then it HAS to be possible with the community's virtually infinite number of modifications, many of which completely remade the entirety of the leveling and powers system (powers/magics specific to classes, or with completely new ones including completely new classes as well).

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: shortylickens
D&D is the worst example of power mage because you have to get an assload of experience and you are still pretty limited even at high levels.
There are plenty of tabletop RPG's with true power mages but thats not what this thread is about.

I noticed the game Sacrifice is missing from the OP's list. I suggest he try that.

Also in some of the hack'n'slash RPG's like Diablo and Titan Quest it is possible to build a power mage but you still have the same problem as D&D. You need to get up to a very high level and make smart decisions about point distribution and ability selection.

isn't that generally how games with mages go?

 

[katank]

Try vanilla Oblivion for uber mage. With buffs, they can beat everyone else at their own game. That is not even mentioning the invisibility + touch nuke combos you can pull.

Dual classes mages in Baldur's Gate is also pretty sweet. Does require you to be high level though. A kensai/mage can tank better than a fighter and also dish out incredible damage.

KOTOR's force wielder classes can also be nice. You can shred mobs and bosses alike w/ force lightning and force crush.

 

[nosfe]

if you want glass cannons in d&d games you go with sorcerers. I never could play wizards because i'm to used to mages being nukers and wizards aren't

 

[Nik]

Oblivion mages can do ridiculous damage if done correctly. Besides, there's always cheat codes :laugh:

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: shortylickens
D&D is the worst example of power mage because you have to get an assload of experience and you are still pretty limited even at high levels.
There are plenty of tabletop RPG's with true power mages but thats not what this thread is about.

I noticed the game Sacrifice is missing from the OP's list. I suggest he try that.

Also in some of the hack'n'slash RPG's like Diablo and Titan Quest it is possible to build a power mage but you still have the same problem as D&D. You need to get up to a very high level and make smart decisions about point distribution and ability selection.

isn't that generally how games with mages go?

the thing is... with that type of smart decision making and min maxing and very high level, you could get a warrior very powerful too, and it wouldnt be a huge chore to do so.

oblivion I just don't find fun

Sacrifice is a PERFECT example of what I mean by powerful mage. You summon structures and so on... I just forgot to list it

WOW is an mmo... moreover, I disagree about the proper speccing of a mage in wow. After a lot of research and respec I pushed my mage from being able to solo a single mob 3 levels below it to being able to solo a single mob 2 levels above it...

A hunter took a fraction of the research to being able to solo TWO! ELITE! TWO LEVELS ABOVE the hunter's level at the same time!

Also, tanks can't tank in WOW, the uberspecced mage who could solo a mob 2 levels above? his high DPS combined with the aggro boost for mages and the fact that mobs go through characters meant that warriors could not hold agro for him unless he intentionally held back...