PC graphics shipments down 0.9% in Q3, AMD slips as Intel and Nvidia gain

[WelshBloke]

I could be fundamentally wrong about this, and I realize me saying the following is like preaching fire and brimstone to an evolutionary biology convention filled with Darwin fans, but I have long-held the viewpoint that the coming wave of CPUGPU fusion chips is the equivalent of the transition between discreet sound-cards and the subsequent transition to lower-performing (but acceptably so) integrated sound on the mobo itself.

I know the last time I cared to buy a discreet sound-card was circa 2002. I was highly tempted to buy a creative card around 2006, but the mobo I bought had "HD Audio" and when I hooked up my speakers I decided it was good enough and not worth improving for another $100 for the sound-card.

That is where I see fusion from Intel and AMD taking VC&G. In five years its not going to be a matter of whether or not a discreet card would yield higher performance, it will/would, but the performance that a consumer already has from the parts they already bought will be "good enough".

Once the marketshare for graphics heads towards IGP-levels so too will the games, that is where the volume will be. Look at the consoles. Its not about performance, good enough is just that.

😀 I'd be quite happy if IGP got to that level it would save me a few hundred quid, I cant see why anyone would be upset by that. I'm very much a fan of just good enough.

I can see that there will be a gradual erosion in the need for discreet cards as IGP get more powerful and games are more written for consoles.

I just think there will always be a market at the top end. I guess I just dont see IGP giving that level of performance even in 5 years.

 

[taltamir]

i upgraded from creative discrete cards to onboard... I never want to see their crappy drivers again, they are the worst blight I have ever had on any computer.
I used their soundblaster, their audigies... it was terrible... you know the drivers on their website had drm such that they cannot be installed unless you had a previous version installed? only way to get that was to use the disk that came with the card... which contained drivers so ancient and buggy that would often corrupt windows on install attempt. had to reformat 1 in 3 times i tried to install those.
Eventually they stopped doing that and just let you download and install the latest drivers, but they still make crap drivers and are horrible buggy... i have seen their cards do anything from causing a computer to fail posting to causing odd bugs in windows (although the not posting thing obviously has nothing to do with drivers).

bottom line, I hate creative. and I would actually buy sound cards if anyone made decent ones to buy.

 

[tviceman]

Since Nvidia's embedded graphics are all but gone, and they're only 1% behind AMD when counting embedded and discrete, it looks like Nvidia is still leading the discrete market in terms of units sold. I thought for sure AMD would be clearly leading since they had top to bottom DX11 solutions out for the entire last quarter.

 

[wlee15]

Well the main differences between sound cards and graphics card is that the computation requirement had pretty much stagnated for audio processing allowing the CPU to adsorb audio processing. That isn't the case with graphics where the computation requirements have continuously increased. It might even be possible that for consumer products, the CPU part of the APU will become the "HD audio" rather than the GPU part.

 

[sandorski]

i upgraded from creative discrete cards to onboard... I never want to see their crappy drivers again, they are the worst blight I have ever had on any computer.
I used their soundblaster, their audigies... it was terrible... you know the drivers on their website had drm such that they cannot be installed unless you had a previous version installed? only way to get that was to use the disk that came with the card... which contained drivers so ancient and buggy that would often corrupt windows on install attempt. had to reformat 1 in 3 times i tried to install those.
Eventually they stopped doing that and just let you download and install the latest drivers, but they still make crap drivers and are horrible buggy... i have seen their cards do anything from causing a computer to fail posting to causing odd bugs in windows (although the not posting thing obviously has nothing to do with drivers).

bottom line, I hate creative. and I would actually buy sound cards if anyone made decent ones to buy.

Same here. Creative can suck it as I don't care if they have something better or not. Their Drivers have always sucked. Onboard HD Audio is very good these days.

 

[sandorski]

In a few years we'll almost all have Integrated Graphics as part of our Systems. Most of us won't be using it, but it will be there.

 

[tannat]

Jon Peddie, wasn't that the same guy that wrote the hilarious power draw article on Fudzilla a few months ago🙂

 

[Arkadrel]

I have to agree with the onboard sound annology... most people have 2-4 speakers + subwoofer, and onboard sound is enough for that. The quality in sound vs a card you buy is so small most people probably wont notice it.

People who buy ceperate cards? people in the music biz... no one else more or less.

 

[Idontcare]

I just think there will always be a market at the top end. I guess I just dont see IGP giving that level of performance even in 5 years.

No disagreement there, even LP's and Laserdiscs have a market today.

High-end discrete cards will likely never die. Discrete sram didn't die when caches became integrated, and CRT's can still be bought.

But anybody who business failed to evolve with the market most certainly did not enjoy the growing market (taltamir's post).

The same could be said of SSDs...its milkshake WILL bring all the boys to the yard, someday, its an unavoidable transition like CRT->LCD. Only question IMO is the timeline.

I have to agree with the onboard sound annology... most people have 2-4 speakers + subwoofer, and onboard sound is enough for that. The quality in sound vs a card you buy is so small most people probably wont notice it.

People who buy ceperate cards? people in the music biz... no one else more or less.

Yep, creative certainly did not benefit from the market transition to onboard audio.

They are kinda like the last standing (and most successful at their time) horse-buggy whip manufacturer in circa 1908.

People still buy horse buggy whips, but it is nowhere the same kind of business it was in the late 19th century.

 

[RussianSensation]

bottom line, I hate creative. and I would actually buy sound cards if anyone made decent ones to buy.

I am not in any shape or form going to defend creative over any other brand of sound card. I am completely impartial. I got the X-fi refurbished from Creative.com for $45 w/ free shipping so it was a massive upgrade for what I spent. 🙂

I also never used the drivers that came with that CD. I just popped it in and it worked out of the box with Windows XP. Then I upgraded to Windows 7 and I just downloaded their drivers from the interent and it worked without any issues. I can't comment on any Live, Audigy ZS or other series since I've never had those. Also, my card is the old style PCI not PCIexpress. Not sure if this makes any impact on stability.

But I can't at all agree that onboard sound on the desktop (whether used w/ headphones or standalone speakers) is anywhere comparable to a dedicated $75-100 sound card. I mean if you listen to music every day/week, $100 on a standalone sound card is a minor expense. 🙂

 

[ArchAngel777]

But I can't at all agree that onboard sound on the desktop (whether used w/ headphones or standalone speakers) is anywhere comparable to a dedicated $75-100 sound card. I mean if you listen to music every day/week, $100 on a standalone sound card is a minor expense. 🙂

Some of the on-board sound is really good these days. In fact, with my last build, I did not even install my Audigy. I, personally, cannot tell the difference, even with some nice speakers. To each their own, I don't doubt that you can tell the difference, but I sure cannot.

 

[StrangerGuy]

Some of the on-board sound is really good these days. In fact, with my last build, I did not even install my Audigy. I, personally, cannot tell the difference, even with some nice speakers. To each their own, I don't doubt that you can tell the difference, but I sure cannot.

My ears tells me my free Realtek ALC889A sounds even better than my X-Fi Xtremegamer. I'm totally serious on this one.

 

[Arkadrel]

....snip.. In fact, with my last build, I did not even install my Audigy. I, personally, cannot tell the difference, even with some nice speakers. ..snip...

yes I have a creative card laying around... I used it because I was haveing issue with my onboard one. Next motherboard I got I tried the onboard one first.. no issues, so didnt put the card in. Its laying on some shelf or another currently and will probably just stay there.

Add me to the list of cant tell the differnce in sound quality list.
I have good hearing too, and decent sound setup. I can still hear those 14-15k hz sounds (even though im into my 20s).


If the grafics cards go into the cpus/north bridge like amd/intel want to do, then Nvidia is gonna lose alot of market within the next 5 years or so. If Nvidia is still around 5years from now, it ll be a very differnt company. nVidia tried to go into the mobil biz with the Tegra, but... competition is hard there.

 

[videogames101]

If you buy expensive headphones, you essentially need to buy a discrete sound card unless you want to hear all the crap from onboard. By the same token, if yo have a nice, big monitor, you'll want a discrete video card.

Speculation, of course.

 

[mosox]

My ears tells me my free Realtek ALC889A sounds even better than my X-Fi Xtremegamer. I'm totally serious on this one.

Well, the Realtek 889 has twice the sampling rate of the X-Fi (192 KHz vs 96).
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Audio-Codec-Comparison-Table/520/2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC5KFnSUPNo&feature=related

http://mp3ornot.com/

I'm happy with my Asus Xonar.

 

[exar333]

If you buy expensive headphones, you essentially need to buy a discrete sound card unless you want to hear all the crap from onboard. By the same token, if yo have a nice, big monitor, you'll want a discrete video card.

Speculation, of course.

Yeah, no. Not true.

 

[Nemesis 1]

😀 I'd be quite happy if IGP got to that level it would save me a few hundred quid, I cant see why anyone would be upset by that. I'm very much a fan of just good enough.

I can see that there will be a gradual erosion in the need for discreet cards as IGP get more powerful and games are more written for consoles.

I just think there will always be a market at the top end. I guess I just dont see IGP giving that level of performance even in 5 years.

Your reasoning is sound . But without the low middle discrete there will be no highend . AS I have read many times the high end is very small market, weres those development dollars going to come from . NV be hurting going to fab and ordering low quanity parts. There cost will sore.

 

[RussianSensation]

My ears tells me my free Realtek ALC889A sounds even better than my X-Fi Xtremegamer. I'm totally serious on this one.

1. Are you listening to music in Gaming mode on? Change to Entertainment Mode.

2. When you listen to MP3s, did you enable the 24-bit Crystalizer with 3D Surround configured?

3. Have you tried using FLAC songs?

4. If you are using headphones, turn on CMSS 3D.

If none of these help, "You are using it wrong ". :biggrin: (just kiddin', if you still think the onboard is better, sell the card and pocket the $$$ 🙂)

Well, the Realtek 889 has twice the sampling rate of the X-Fi (192 KHz vs 96).

"Beyond certain thresholds our ears cannot tell the difference. There was a paper in the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society in which a 16-bit, 44.1 kHz AD-DA converter was inserted into the path of an audio track; several audio professionals were blind-tested and it turned out they couldn't hear a difference between the audio with and without the converter."

Plus, you can't compare DACs, and clarity of the signal pass through by only looking at sampling rates.

 

[OCGuy]

I thought nV was dead!???


Time to call shens on the 9:1 shipping article?

 

[Gloomy]

Time to call shens on the 9:1 shipping article?

That's only for DX11 parts. Nvidia actually ships a hell of a lot of graphics chips that aren't Fermi.

 

[OCGuy]

That's only for DX11 parts. Nvidia actually ships a hell of a lot of graphics chips that aren't Fermi.

Enough to gain marketshare when AMD is shipping 90% of DX11 parts?

 

[Gloomy]

Oh, I don't know about that. I do know that the best value for the money for a long time lay in Nvidia's previous-generation 2xx chips, so it's possible.

 

[blastingcap]

I thought nV was dead!???

Time to call shens on the 9:1 shipping article?

Dude give it up, AMD had a DX11 monopoly for 6 months.

For 6 months, the water flowing into the DX11 bathtub was 100% red. -> The tub water was also 100% red.

The water flowing into the tub was still pretty darn red from April to June 2010 since the high-end market is so tiny and GTX480/70/65 are high-end cards with high-end prices. -> the tub water was still nearly all-red

The flowing water got greener with GTX460 but even if the flowing water were 50-50 red/green, there is already so much water in the bathtub that it'll take a long time for the tub water to be less than mostly-red

Now that Barts has launched, things get interesting because I'm not sure if the Barts launch wins more marketshare or not. Probably it wins back some marketshare that AMD was losing to GTX460s since AMD had a gaping hole in its lineup there, the beleagured 5830 notwithstanding. But I can also see NV holding its own or even winning share after the Barts launch. Personally, I was disappointed by the price gouging and lackluster prices for Barts. NV dropped prices by just enough to make GTX460s and 470s competitive. I could not wait any longer for AMD to get its act together or for enough stock to show up. If I could have waited, I'd have gotten a 6850. Instead I got a GTX460 (which broke so I am replacing it with another GTX460).

Cayman is high-end and just like GTX480/70 won't appreciably affect marketshare numbers--the flowing water ratio won't change that much because of it. And the tub water will probably still be mostly red.

Argue what you want but steam hardware survey agrees with the 9:1 ratio AMD threw out there. 85%. It may eventually turn into 8:1 or less over the next few months, but it will take time.

We've been over this before.

 

[RussianSensation]

Oh, I don't know about that. I do know that the best value for the money for a long time lay in Nvidia's previous-generation 2xx chips, so it's possible.

You had the right idea that NV does ship a ton of non-Fermi chips. I imagine that's all the 3xx series such as G310M/320m/335M, etc. Those are found on tons of laptops. Notebook sales already exceed desktop sales, so the notebook market is completely different (of course it's a market AMD dominates too).

@ OCGuy,

Still, it's hard to simply conclude that NV has gained market share as a result of GTX460. There are far too many other factors such as potential supply shortages of AMD cards in Asia and Europe due to them trying to clear old inventories of HD58xx series. Also, we don't know where exactly NV has gained market share (Apple for example continues to sell buttload of Macbooks and each of those ships with an NV chip). So again, we can't just assume the 0.5% market share gain came on the desktop side.

 

[OCGuy]

Dude give it up, AMD had a DX11 monopoly for 6 months.

For 6 months, the water flowing into the DX11 bathtub was 100% red. -> The tub water was also 100% red.

The water flowing into the tub was still pretty darn red from April to June 2010 since the high-end market is so tiny and GTX480/70/65 are high-end cards with high-end prices. -> the tub water was still nearly all-red

The flowing water got greener with GTX460 but even if the flowing water were 50-50 red/green, there is already so much water in the bathtub that it'll take a long time for the tub water to be less than mostly-red

Now that Barts has launched, things get interesting because I'm not sure if the Barts launch wins more marketshare or not. Probably it wins back some marketshare that AMD was losing to GTX460s since AMD had a gaping hole in its lineup there, the beleagured 5830 notwithstanding. But I can also see NV holding its own or even winning share after the Barts launch. Personally, I was disappointed by the price gouging and lackluster prices for Barts. NV dropped prices by just enough to make GTX460s and 470s competitive. I could not wait any longer for AMD to get its act together or for enough stock to show up. If I could have waited, I'd have gotten a 6850. Instead I got a GTX460 (which broke so I am replacing it with another GTX460).

Cayman is high-end and just like GTX480/70 won't appreciably affect marketshare numbers--the flowing water ratio won't change that much because of it. And the tub water will probably still be mostly red.

Argue what you want but steam hardware survey agrees with the 9:1 ratio AMD threw out there. 85%. It may eventually turn into 8:1 or less over the next few months, but it will take time.

We've been over this before.

Huh? Isn't this units shipped per quarter? So by your flawed bathtub analogy, the bathtub is empty at the start of each quarter 😉

Also, as discussed many times, Steam survey is far from scientific.