PC Gaming is stagnant...

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: skace
People talk about Half-Life2 like it came out 10 years ago...

Oh yea, and as far as PC Gaming being on the forefront. I think you could make a solid argument that MMORPGs are the forefront of gaming and PCs are ALL. OVER. THEM. Everything from Guild Wars to WoW to RFO to DF, we've had nearly every iteration and evolution of the MMORPG genre. Not to mention, we've basically run the FPS genre into the ground while Consoles still look at them as new territory.

We get games such as Darwinia, Gunbound, Total Annihilation: Spring, Mount & Blade, truely unique experiences beyond your normal everyday rehash. If you want to look about pushing boundaries. Sure, the games I listed might not be beautiful (oh, the PC only has graphics going for it?) but they do add varying elements to the gaming world. Darwinia was a game that wouldn't have seen the light of day without Steam and, despite a very old style of graphics, looks great and delivers addictive gameplay. Gunbound utilizes an ingame shop that uses real money to support the entire environment of otherwise free gameplay. Total Annihilation: Spring takes a ~8 year old game and wraps it around recent computing power to allow for massive armies and first person perspectives, a level of modding not even understood in the console market. Mount and Blade, despite ugly graphics and an unfinished game (it is in beta) has some of the best melee and mounted combat ever developed in a game.

We have experiences such as Rome Total War and Civ4, epic AAA titles to a genre that console gamers barely ever see a release for.

I'm sorry, but it is one thing to say EAX is monopolizing sound and that Live makes voice comm easier than it is on the PC. But when we start talking games, the forefront is on the PC. Consoles trail behind, slowly picking up on our recent trends. Some of the best recent console games have simply been rehashes of age old series with a PC gaming twist, IE: Metroid Prime and Resident Evil 4. And this is a GOOD thing, but surely does show how ahead of the game PCs are.

I could take just about everything you said, replace the word PC with console, change the names of the games, and the exact same argument would hold water. Both consoles and PCs have their genres which they excel at, and both have odd sleeper games that no one hears about but are still fantastic.

It was never my intention to say that the PC still cant make good games. Hell, I still play my SNES because it had some of the best games ever. A good developer can take any system or PC and make something enjoyable out of it.

But heres the inherent problem - consoles arent so different from PCs anymore. 3D graphics, surround sound, online capabilities, hard drives, microphones, cameras, high resolution graphics - all those technological superiorites that used to be PC only are now console territory. Consoles are extensible enough now that they can attach a keyboard and mouse (wireless, even) without breaking a sweat. Sure theres that two year or so gap that new consoles will have better graphics than new PCs...but other than that...what is left? Why should I bother spending $1000-$1500 on a gaming PC to play a few good games in essentially 3 genres, when I could spend $400 on a console and $500 on a work PC?

I really cant think of a single unique gaming technology that the PC has anymore, other than what is essentially a 30 year old combination of mouse and keyboard. I could however list quite a few console ones. Ill still play PC games for the near future, but I cant seem myself upgrading anymore for quite some time, since its the same ol stuff as before, just a bit faster.

 

[skace]

When you say unique gaming technology. Are you referring to something such as how you can start a Civ4 game against PCs, have actual real players join the game while it is running, have them takeover for the AI characters, and then have them leave again during the game and have the AI take back over. Or are you just referring to periphrals. Like, are you expecting PCs to get virtual reality seats like lawnmower man so that they can be ahead of consoles in some sort of physically tangible manner?

And yes, consoles can utilize most PC devices, just like the PC can utilize the Xbox 360 controller, why? Because these consoles are, for all intents and purposes, repackaged PCs. Is it a bad thing that consoles have gone so far to immitate the PC that they are practically exactly that? How hard is it to catch up with PCs when you simply take a PC, rebadge it, and call it a console?

When I play Civ4 with my friends, I run an Icecast server and host my own music radio station. Can the Xbox 360 do this? I like to Fraps my PVP sessions in WoW, can 360 do this? How easy / difficult is it? I'm able to share my screenshots, videos and saved games very easily via my PC. When I play Everquest, I like to 2box from the same machine, this means I run 2 instances of the same application within windows and play them both at the same time. Can I do this with Xbox 360?

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
BTW, I haven't heard of half of the games you mentioned in there but they sound interesting. Perhaps that is part of the PCs problem. Where am I supposed to hear about Darwinia? Mount & Blade? It's not like I live under a rock or anything but I've
honestly never heard of that stuff.

That was sort of the point, the obscure games trying something different are usually not the most popular or high budget games. PCs are THE platform for obscure low budget 'risks' that startup developers can take.

Darwinia is a game that was released via Steam. It reminds me of a Populous / RTS type game. It is also a very odd artistic game as it is a mesh of 3d gaming and the old pixel days. http://www.darwinia.co.uk/

Mount and Blade is a new game, still in beta. It is being done by 1 guy, possibly some more people now. The impressive aspect of the game is how much work he has put into melee / ranged combat and how well it is working. You basically control an army from a single fps perspective and can go into arena battles, jousting, or attack armies around the country side. He is slowly adding castle siege warfare to the game now. http://www.taleworlds.com/

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: BD2003
There was once a time when PC games were far and above technologically superior to consoles. And this has nothing to do with the new consoles having better gfx - they do, but it doesnt matter.

DirectX is our platform, and it is now an afterthought. The only changes MS has made to DX since DX6 have been graphical. Let us count the ways that PC gaming has fallen behind.

Uh, graphics are where the advancements have been. There wasn't even a vertex shader back then!

Sound - 3d sound died with aureal. It is now creative or nothing, and their cards are unfortunately garbage. They can be garbage, cause theyre a monopoly. EAX just doesnt cut it. Why hasnt Directsound 3d been developed for other manufacturers to exploit? 3d sound hasnt fundamentally changed in years, because there is no driving force behind it.

I'm using dolby digital surround. Not sure where you're at.

Voice - Leave it up to the developer to handle itself. Ensure that 10% of people have mics because of this, and because of that, those 10% of people wont use it. Nevermind the fact we could be using bluetooth headsets through their own channel with proper platform support, nope, we're still stuck using the same microphone and stereo channel that everything else uses. Still back in the 20th century with this one.

I'm using voice to play WoW and I have been since PlanetSide.

While we're at it, lets not unify server browsing. Lets not make a unified online gaming community like x-live. Lets just leave it up to the developers to develop this stuff to the least common denominator like EA that will build something up to the point that is merely passable. And then patch it when people complain.

Performance metering could be built into the system, instead of letting each developer choose what they think are good settings for you.

How is this Microsoft's fault again? Ever heard of ASE or Gamespy?

Games are designed with $500 gf cards in mind...and they mostly still come on CDs.

And load on to your hard drive (unlike a console) where it doesn't make a bit of difference.

But we have good gfx. I guess. Mostly just high res little bit better than last gen stuff, but its very high res. 😛

PC gaming used to be ahead of the game, and now its way, way behind.

Riiiight. We've had surround sound for nearly a decade, consoles still can't do 1600x1200 and there are more people playing PC games than all console systems put together. Show me a good flight sim on a console. Show me an mmorpg.

I believe I disagree with your assesment that PC gaming is dying. It's never been stronger. Your arguments are weak and your blame of MS is simply spiteful and unfounded.

 

[videogames101]

So you're saying that some z-5500's coupled with a x-fi elite pro can be beat by most people's crappy in tv stereo systems? That setup could blow away any consoles sound in a heartbeat. Do games even have true surround sound? I think not...

 

[Meractik]

While we're at it, lets not unify server browsing. Lets not make a unified online gaming community like x-live. Lets just leave it up to the developers to develop this stuff to the least common denominator like EA that will build something up to the point that is merely passable. And then patch it when people complain.



that above statement already exists and has existed since the days of duke nukem 3d for PC the application is called Kali - http://www.kali.net/

its a shame its not to popular anymore because it really is a wonderful application for PC gamers.

 

[DefRef]

Originally posted by: videogames101
So you're saying that some z-5500's coupled with a x-fi elite pro can be beat by most people's crappy in tv stereo systems? That setup could blow away any consoles sound in a heartbeat. Do games even have true surround sound? I think not...

I think you've never played an Xbox on a home theater.:roll:

I regret using the words "PC gaming is dying" as it seems to have touched a nerve. But its slowly being relegated more and more to the fringes as the technology other than graphics isnt keeping up.

Then edit the thread title to PC Gaming is stagnant because M$ won't update DirectX. Not as provacative as "it's dying", but more to the point.

 

[TheUnk]

I'm using dolby digital surround. Not sure where you're at.

On your PC? Please elaborate. Unless you are using that creative box that converts analog into digital out..

Riiiight. We've had surround sound for nearly a decade, consoles still can't do 1600x1200 and there are more people playing PC games than all console systems put together. Show me a good flight sim on a console. Show me an mmorpg.

They can do 1920x1080, close enough for me.. MMO? FFXI, Huxley, some others I can't remember. Flight sims I dunno, not into them.

Honestly it sounds like you are a bit behind the times on your console knowledge man.

 

[Bateluer]

Originally posted by: TheUnk

Originally posted by: Bateluer
I didn't read this entire thread, don't have the time. I don't believe PC gaming is dying, nor do I believe that MS is killing it. I do, however, believe that the genre is stagnant, because of consoles. These days, a lot of devs are trying to make their games as simple as possible, in order to emulate their console titles. Even titles that traditionally had strong story and character developments, such as RPGs, Adventures, and RTSs are merely excuses to splatter your opponent. The RPG genre today, in particular, disgusts me. Seems like almost every dev is trying to create the next Diablo 2, action RPGs with a fluff story and no character or plot development. Why don't they try emulate good RPG titles like Torment, Fallout, and Baldur's Gate? Its been years since these classics and there's been nothing that could touch them.

:laugh: funny you are.

Don't follow you. I didn't notice any spelling errors, but perhaps my grammar could be made clearer. PC developers frequently try to make their PC titles similar to popular console titles. Simpler control schemes, low or textureless graphics, simplistic story and plot, etc.

Granted, I did type that post with only 2 hours of sleep after a long day, I still don't see why you find it funny.

 

[BD2003]

Uh, graphics are where the advancements have been. There wasn't even a vertex shader back then!

Which is exactly my point. There is more to tech than just gfx.

I'm using dolby digital surround. Not sure where you're at.

If youre using dolby digital, than you must be using an nforce board. And in that case, youre still using good ol EAX2. And a very bad implementation of it at that (Ive compared it to many others with my own ears, trust me). Unless I'm mistaken, its still the only solution for real time *dolby digital* encoding. If we're talking about 5.1, then so am I. But thats not the point. There is (or rather, should be) far, far more to sound than what speaker a certain sound comes out of. Aureal brought the future a bit ahead of its time when it had real time 3d modeling of reflections...and even then, it was in its infancy. We could have 2nd and 3rd order reflections. We could have effective up/down HRTF models. We could have real time sound production by now....I think a racing game tried it a while ago and CPUs just werent there yet.

Stopping at 5.1 surround with fancy statistical reverb is an ugly hack. Its like as if graphics stopped at DX6 perpetually, and just raised the screen and texture resolution for the next 5 years.

EAX 3 and 4 brought all these supposedly even fancier stastical methods that are even more ugly hacks that Ive yet to actually hear work properly in a game. If youve ever played HL1 with A3D 2.0, youd at least have an idea of what could be, but isnt.

I'm using voice to play WoW and I have been since PlanetSide.

Which is great, with your guild. Id like the capability to yell at the idiot standing on the fire in the auction house, and know he can hear me, and know he can tell me to go F myself right back. Id like to join a pickup group and know that we can all talk to each other from the start.

How is this Microsoft's fault again? Ever heard of ASE or Gamespy?

For the tenth time, gamespy is an outside program. If functions were built into DX, thats less work for the developers, meaning more goes into the actual game, a solid, robust (theoretically) familiar experience no matter what the game.

Am I REALLY alone in understanding that when something is a standard automatically applied to everyone who plays any game, that it will see widespread use before long?

Server browsing, ranking, unified gamertags etc - is not as big a deal as the rest. Its just another idea that could technically be done if MS decided to do it. But the PC platform is the redheaded stepchild since xbox came out.

And load on to your hard drive (unlike a console) where it doesn't make a bit of difference.

I agree. Its more of an example of the same syndrome if anything.

Riiiight. We've had surround sound for nearly a decade, consoles still can't do 1600x1200 and there are more people playing PC games than all console systems put together. Show me a good flight sim on a console. Show me an mmorpg.

Consoles have had surround sound for at least 5 years now. A good many N64 and PS1 (even some SNES) games could even do dolby surround. Consoles are up there as far as resolution goes now with the xbox 360 and ps3.

Show me a good arcade racer on the PC. Show me a good party game, a good console style RPG, a good fighting game etc. Each platform has its own strengths as far as genres go. This isnt about that.

I believe I disagree with your assesment that PC gaming is dying. It's never been stronger. Your arguments are weak and your blame of MS is simply spiteful and unfounded.

I'm no such much blaming for a problem as I am upset with a lack of progress. And I've said it before, and I'll say it again - its microsofts fault. Not cause I hate microsoft, but because like it or not, theyre the only ones with the real capability to make standards that will stick, and as long as we're using windows, they will always be.

So you're saying that some z-5500's coupled with a x-fi elite pro can be beat by most people's crappy in tv stereo systems? That setup could blow away any consoles sound in a heartbeat. Do games even have true surround sound? I think not...

I guarantee you that my home theater setup would destroy those z-5500s, and considering how little the sound area has progressed in the past 5 years, the xbox 1 (which has the very same sound chip that the nforce has) can do real time, 5.1 dolby digital, with HRTFs, reverb, and all that good stuff.

that above statement already exists and has existed since the days of duke nukem 3d for PC the application is called Kali - http://www.kali.net/

its a shame its not to popular anymore because it really is a wonderful application for PC gamers.

Kali had its time back in the day. I remember all the ones that tried - mplayer was another one of them. As with everyone else, its going to take MS to shove a standard down our throats for it to be useful to more than a select group of people that know how and care to use a certain program.

Then edit the thread title to PC Gaming is stagnant because M$ won't update DirectX. Not as provacative as "it's dying", but more to the point.

Done.

 

[hooflung]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: MrChad
Damned if they do and damned if they don't.

If Microsoft started dictating how server browsers should look and how voice support should be done, basically creating a "Live" system for the PC, developers and gamers alike would bitch about how they're abusing their power.

There's nothing stopping developers from creating open standards outside of DirectX for these types of things. Why is it Microsoft's responsibility?

Because like it or not, games are for windows. Open standards are not going to come with windows. Can you name one open standard that is actually a successful standard? (as in almost ALL games use it?)

Do people complain that MS is abusing their power with Direct3d? Of course not. A community would be unnecessary, but appreciated if free. Either way, voice and video chat are technologies that were feasible years ago and no one is going to bother.

But when gfx sells games, and MS doesnt get a licensing fee from developers, why should they bother?

OpenGL runs on Linux just fine. In fact games like City of Heroes (openGL) have ran faster on linux and cedega than they do on Windows XP on the same machine... so much for Windows DirectX. Now if developers would stop destroying their own games ... CoH... then maybe there would be hope.

 

[Zap Brannigan]

Originally posted by: BD2003


Sound - 3d sound died with aureal. It is now creative or nothing, and their cards are unfortunately garbage. They can be garbage, cause theyre a monopoly. EAX just doesnt cut it. Why hasnt Directsound 3d been developed for other manufacturers to exploit? 3d sound hasnt fundamentally changed in years, because there is no driving force behind it.

I would have agreed for a few years there but EAX4 with a good set of headphones is nice. Creative finally implents some of the technology it aquired from Aureal and Sensaura. It's been a long 5 years or so has'nt it? That Aureal Vortex2 was quite a sound card! Turtle Beach Santa Cruz was nice back in the day too.

 

[potato28]

MS Please make a new DX system thats easier to use for the greater good of all of us!!!

 

[MrChad]

Originally posted by: BD2003
I'm no such much blaming for a problem as I am upset with a lack of progress. And I've said it before, and I'll say it again - its microsofts fault. Not cause I hate microsoft, but because like it or not, theyre the only ones with the real capability to make standards that will stick, and as long as we're using windows, they will always be.

But the examples you've been repeating in this thread tell a different story.

3D sound has been stagnant because the only real competitor to Creative - Aureal - was bought out by Creative several years ago. Now Creative rests on its laurels and makes small insignificant updates to its hardware and EAX standard every few years. Microsoft has nothing to do with this ... it's Creative's market dominance and lack of competition that have brought this on. nVidia had a good thing going with SoundStorm. Why didn't they step up and release a stand-alone card? Or a new 3D sound API?

Again, the scope of what DirectX is needs to be repeated. The goal of DirectX was to eliminate the need for game designers to interface with vendor-specific APIs and instead provide a "one size fits all" API. Back in the DOS days, if you didn't have a SoundBlaster 16, Ad-Lib or maybe Roland soundcard, you were out of luck. Now a vendor just has to implement some DirectSound calls in their driver and games should work fine (in theory of course 😉). The point is that DirectX was never meant to dictate interfaces and user experience. It was simply designed to facilitate developers making games for an unknown hardware platform.

Now maybe there is a need or a market out there for an Xbox Live type of universal interface. The trick is getting developers to use it. Unlike the Xbox, where Microsoft has licensing leverage, the PC is completely open. Microsoft could make a universal server browser, but I doubt many developers would use it. EA even resisted Xbox Live for long time because Microsoft dictate too many parameters.

Part of the problem is hardware manufacturers. DirectInput has support for force-feedback devices, but since there are so few force-feedback devices out there, many developers don't bother implementing it. Again, because PC is such an open platform, developers have to cater to the bigger market segments. Slick hardware has to start with Creative, Logitech and the like. Only then will PC games start to expand technologically beyond graphic improvements.

 

[INM8]

BD2003, i compleltly agree with you. Im a pc gamer, and a console gamer, and the lack of "real" progress in the computer gaming world is pretty sad. Infact, the only reason i still use the pc for games is because i play alot of strategy games (age of empires, dawn of war, and so on) and consoles dont seem to be suitable to RTS's just yet. Maybe they will try it out on the PS3 or Xbox 360 with a keyboard and mouse, but i still dont know how you would go about playing it in a lounge on the counch. Other than that, i use my xbox for all other types of gaming (halo, halo2, project gotham2, etc....) The real "plug and play" capability of conoles is great (live is a great example of this). Everything works, its streamlined, and problem free, and thats what makes it so good.

btw: Does anyone remember "zone". I used to play Age of Empires Age of Kings alot, and "msn gaming zone" was the best "generic" multiplayed interface i have used. Unfortunatly no new games (even the microsoft ones) are made with this in mind anymore, which is a big step backwards, considering things like Ensemble Studios Online (for Age of Empires III) lack the functionality the zone had, and that was many years ago.

 

[Fingolfin269]

Yup, I had to use Zone for Asheron's Call.

 

[SunnyD]

All of these reasons for computer gaming dying are just plain stupid. There are few enhancements that can be made in the realm of audio. Video is all about brute force now, there's no real methods using current 3D technology to make it better unless you start looking at radical approaches.. The only real enhancements to be had are physics processing (coming down the pipe thanks to AGEIA). Voice? Who really cares? Server browser? Big friggin deal.

The main problem with gaming, PC or console, is that each genre is stagnant. Plain and simple. Sports? NFL 2184 and NHL 2301. MMO's - a dime a dozen, nothing innovative there. FPS - it's still a FPS. RPG's - well that genre is just about dead thanks to MMO's. RTS - here's something we have to wait for Blizzard to come out with their next *craft for.

It's all the same. Just prettier pictures and bigger booms. I've gotten to the point in gaming where I am simply bored with the games. Play for a week and then you realize you've just wasted your time.

There is nearly nothing - new technology or not - that can spice it up. Gaming has gotten stale, not the technology behind the gaming.

 

[Malladine]

I'm happy with the state of the pc gaming industry. Plenty of good games to play now, and plenty more in development. :beer:

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: MrChad
Again, the scope of what DirectX is needs to be repeated. The goal of DirectX was to eliminate the need for game designers to interface with vendor-specific APIs and instead provide a "one size fits all" API. Back in the DOS days, if you didn't have a SoundBlaster 16, Ad-Lib or maybe Roland soundcard, you were out of luck. Now a vendor just has to implement some DirectSound calls in their driver and games should work fine (in theory of course 😉). The point is that DirectX was never meant to dictate interfaces and user experience. It was simply designed to facilitate developers making games for an unknown hardware platform.

Oh I definitely remember those days. I agree with you on what the current scope of directX is. But where I disagree is on what it should be, not what it will be. I dont think for a second that 3d graphics would have come as far as it did if we were still using proprietary schemes like glide etc.

Part of the problem is hardware manufacturers. DirectInput has support for force-feedback devices, but since there are so few force-feedback devices out there, many developers don't bother implementing it. Again, because PC is such an open platform, developers have to cater to the bigger market segments. Slick hardware has to start with Creative, Logitech and the like. Only then will PC games start to expand technologically beyond graphic improvements.

As far as I know, it only has support for force feedback in wheels and sticks, which are both devices used in a few games, and thats only because microsoft made those peripherals. Oddly enough, in the one peripheral that everyone uses, its non-existent. Force feedback mice may sound retarded to some, but it was really fun play black and white one with it - you could feel when you ripped out trees etc.

All of these reasons for computer gaming dying are just plain stupid. There are few enhancements that can be made in the realm of audio. Video is all about brute force now, there's no real methods using current 3D technology to make it better unless you start looking at radical approaches.. The only real enhancements to be had are physics processing (coming down the pipe thanks to AGEIA). Voice? Who really cares? Server browser? Big friggin deal.

Youre just plain wrong. There are SO many enhancements that can be made in audio...its not even close to realistic. Youve just been hearing the same old for so long that youre convinced it cant get any better. And video isnt about brute force at all...if it were about brute force, we wouldnt need shaders. Its all about shaders now...we dont need a zillion polygons when we have normal mapping. Voice is awesome when implemented properly. Physics? Will definitely add to games but the honest truth - its going to get no support for the same reasons as everything else, its a proprietary standard.

 

[PingSpike]

I wouldn't go so far as to place the majority of gaming stagnation on microsoft. Its a problem with all genres and platforms at this stage I think. Budgets have swelled so much that publishers don't want to take risks anymore, and that leaves us with a bunch of copy cats of proven ideas. However, microsoft does have a habit of gaining dominating control of a market and then once all competitors have been blown out of the water-not doing anything with the product anymore. Internet explorer is a good example. They haven't done much on that since they knocked netscape off its throne back in the mid 90s. OpenGL was a competitor, and since game makers support for that api has waned microsoft hasn't really bothed to do much for directx.

Ultimately though directX is free in and of itself. Microsoft will use it to sell new operating systems if anything at this point.

I've been watching valve and I'm liking the direction they're going. Despite all the hatred for steam by many and a lot of piss poor handlings of the community at some points, I have to admire how they kicked the publisher right out of the driver seat and took full control of their own products. I like the steam delivery system, the progressive approach to the piracy problem it introduces and how it gives small titles a venue they wouldn't otherwise have. Valve certainly aren't without their problems, but it was a ballsy move and one that only a company with their kind of clout could expect to see any success with.

They are offering some of things BD2003 is talking about microsoft not stepping up to the plate on...perhaps not to the extent he wants but they are. Voice is available in all their games, even if it isn't the most robust. A quick and simple update system that does its business in the background.

We'll see where things go I guess. There's still some fun titles coming out that'll keep me entertained during the dark ages.

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Uh, graphics are where the advancements have been. There wasn't even a vertex shader back then!

Which is exactly my point. There is more to tech than just gfx.

I'm using dolby digital surround. Not sure where you're at.

If youre using dolby digital, than you must be using an nforce board. And in that case, youre still using good ol EAX2. And a very bad implementation of it at that (Ive compared it to many others with my own ears, trust me). Unless I'm mistaken, its still the only solution for real time *dolby digital* encoding. If we're talking about 5.1, then so am I. But thats not the point. There is (or rather, should be) far, far more to sound than what speaker a certain sound comes out of. Aureal brought the future a bit ahead of its time when it had real time 3d modeling of reflections...and even then, it was in its infancy. We could have 2nd and 3rd order reflections. We could have effective up/down HRTF models. We could have real time sound production by now....I think a racing game tried it a while ago and CPUs just werent there yet.

Stopping at 5.1 surround with fancy statistical reverb is an ugly hack. Its like as if graphics stopped at DX6 perpetually, and just raised the screen and texture resolution for the next 5 years.

EAX 3 and 4 brought all these supposedly even fancier stastical methods that are even more ugly hacks that Ive yet to actually hear work properly in a game. If youve ever played HL1 with A3D 2.0, youd at least have an idea of what could be, but isnt.

I'm using voice to play WoW and I have been since PlanetSide.

Which is great, with your guild. Id like the capability to yell at the idiot standing on the fire in the auction house, and know he can hear me, and know he can tell me to go F myself right back. Id like to join a pickup group and know that we can all talk to each other from the start.

How is this Microsoft's fault again? Ever heard of ASE or Gamespy?

For the tenth time, gamespy is an outside program. If functions were built into DX, thats less work for the developers, meaning more goes into the actual game, a solid, robust (theoretically) familiar experience no matter what the game.

Am I REALLY alone in understanding that when something is a standard automatically applied to everyone who plays any game, that it will see widespread use before long?

Server browsing, ranking, unified gamertags etc - is not as big a deal as the rest. Its just another idea that could technically be done if MS decided to do it. But the PC platform is the redheaded stepchild since xbox came out.

And load on to your hard drive (unlike a console) where it doesn't make a bit of difference.

I agree. Its more of an example of the same syndrome if anything.

Riiiight. We've had surround sound for nearly a decade, consoles still can't do 1600x1200 and there are more people playing PC games than all console systems put together. Show me a good flight sim on a console. Show me an mmorpg.

Consoles have had surround sound for at least 5 years now. A good many N64 and PS1 (even some SNES) games could even do dolby surround. Consoles are up there as far as resolution goes now with the xbox 360 and ps3.

Show me a good arcade racer on the PC. Show me a good party game, a good console style RPG, a good fighting game etc. Each platform has its own strengths as far as genres go. This isnt about that.

I believe I disagree with your assesment that PC gaming is dying. It's never been stronger. Your arguments are weak and your blame of MS is simply spiteful and unfounded.

I'm no such much blaming for a problem as I am upset with a lack of progress. And I've said it before, and I'll say it again - its microsofts fault. Not cause I hate microsoft, but because like it or not, theyre the only ones with the real capability to make standards that will stick, and as long as we're using windows, they will always be.

So you're saying that some z-5500's coupled with a x-fi elite pro can be beat by most people's crappy in tv stereo systems? That setup could blow away any consoles sound in a heartbeat. Do games even have true surround sound? I think not...

I guarantee you that my home theater setup would destroy those z-5500s, and considering how little the sound area has progressed in the past 5 years, the xbox 1 (which has the very same sound chip that the nforce has) can do real time, 5.1 dolby digital, with HRTFs, reverb, and all that good stuff.

that above statement already exists and has existed since the days of duke nukem 3d for PC the application is called Kali - http://www.kali.net/

its a shame its not to popular anymore because it really is a wonderful application for PC gamers.

Kali had its time back in the day. I remember all the ones that tried - mplayer was another one of them. As with everyone else, its going to take MS to shove a standard down our throats for it to be useful to more than a select group of people that know how and care to use a certain program.

Then edit the thread title to PC Gaming is stagnant because M$ won't update DirectX. Not as provacative as "it's dying", but more to the point.

Done.

Don't edit your post. Either stick by your stupid troll statement or don't make it in the first place.

You seem to be under the impression that MS is somehow soley responsible for all the games you play. All games, voice programs, sound cards, graphics hardware and drivers all all written by individual vendors. As I said I'm using teamspeak for voice. Asking Microsoft to magically make that compatible with Vent or something is stupid. Why don't you apply your same standard to consoles? Why can't I voice chat and play games on my Nintendo with my buddies who have a playstation? Seriously, answer that.

If MS does "shove a standard down your throat" you'll just jump on the bandwagon with everyone else and gripe about their monopoly power. Being inside MS I can tell you that there are tons of innovations that will never make it to the market simply because of lawyers. You want someone to provide all the advantages of a proprietary system but you also want to sue them if they do it. 😕

MS makes MSN messenger available to everyone for free and it has voice capability. It also allows you to launch multiplayer games with the person you are chatting with. Although MS makes the APIs publicly available they can't force anyone to use them. You know how much flak they took over including Windows messenger with the OS?? Some people (like you) just like to bitch.

Direct X is capable of handling any feature in current (and foreseeable future) graphics hardware. Don't blame MS for not writing in a feature for some magical yet unknown technology. As for sound - you don't even need DirectX for surround sound. There is nothing MS has done to "hold this back". If some game of yours doesn't have surround sound go blame the developer - they have no excuse.

As for a unified game browser - Ever heard of DirectPlay? Yes, MS already provided this solution people just aren't using it. If you want DirectPlay to be rewritten to be the end-all of online gaming you're gonna have to pay some developers to code it then distribute it as a built in component of Windows so everyone has it....What's that rumbling sound? Uh oh - it's the lawyers stampeding like the "What's in your wallet?" Capitol one Visa Vikings.

If you want MS to come out and lay down the standards for the world go talk to your local attorney general first. In the meantime they have provided a platform that is capable of everything a console does and much much more. It's up to others to leverage that capability.

I think you should just take your trollness home and play some nintendo if are so bitter at MS.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: Zap Brannigan

Originally posted by: BD2003


Sound - 3d sound died with aureal. It is now creative or nothing, and their cards are unfortunately garbage. They can be garbage, cause theyre a monopoly. EAX just doesnt cut it. Why hasnt Directsound 3d been developed for other manufacturers to exploit? 3d sound hasnt fundamentally changed in years, because there is no driving force behind it.

I would have agreed for a few years there but EAX4 with a good set of headphones is nice. Creative finally implents some of the technology it aquired from Aureal and Sensaura. It's been a long 5 years or so has'nt it? That Aureal Vortex2 was quite a sound card! Turtle Beach Santa Cruz was nice back in the day too.

its just that it doesn't matter because i won't support a silly proprietary api and support an effective monopoly. ms should have stepped in with some standard. the competition we have between nvidia and ati is good for the consumer. thisis completely lacking in sound and we've seen little change in tech..or price. only thing thats happened is on board audio has met minimum standards for gaming since they've stayed so low.

 

[BD2003]

Don't edit your post. Either stick by your stupid troll statement or don't make it in the first place.

It was never my intention to troll, and after getting everyones wild reactions at how PC gaming ISNT dying, I realized that it could use a rewording to be more inline with the intention of the OP. Why is that a problem?

You seem to be under the impression that MS is somehow soley responsible for all the games you play. All games, voice programs, sound cards, graphics hardware and drivers all all written by individual vendors. As I said I'm using teamspeak for voice. Asking Microsoft to magically make that compatible with Vent or something is stupid. Why don't you apply your same standard to consoles? Why can't I voice chat and play games on my Nintendo with my buddies who have a playstation? Seriously, answer that.

You obviously havent read a single word that I wrote. If anyone is trolling, it is you, by ignoring my replies to those very same questions, and trying to insinuate that I'm somehow saying all of this because I hate microsoft. Which I don't.

To address your point: Outside programs are fantastic. Without them, we wouldnt know what IS capable. But there comes a time when a concept such as voice chat is so universally excellent, that the company that is responsible for the platform upon which we play our games, would do well to integrate it into the API so ALL games can take advantage of it, and developers can concentrate on making the games instead of duplicating technology. I am in no way advocating that anything be done to disable older programs - they are fantastic for backwards compatibility, as you have obviously realized. I am talking about the future, not the past. Youre just trolling by asking your question, because obviously its comparing apples to oranges. MS is one company, Nintendo and Sega are two competing companies.

If MS does "shove a standard down your throat" you'll just jump on the bandwagon with everyone else and gripe about their monopoly power. Being inside MS I can tell you that there are tons of innovations that will never make it to the market simply because of lawyers. You want someone to provide all the advantages of a proprietary system but you also want to sue them if they do it. 😕

And youre putting words into my mouth. I don't gripe that MS is the standard for OSes, I wouldnt have it any other way. Id imagine it would suck if MS, Apple and Linux split the market three ways.

I'm also well aware that there are very likely legal issues involved. That hasn't stopped microsoft in the past. They need to figure out a way to make money out of it.

MS makes MSN messenger available to everyone for free and it has voice capability. It also allows you to launch multiplayer games with the person you are chatting with. Although MS makes the APIs publicly available they can't force anyone to use them. You know how much flak they took over including Windows messenger with the OS?? Some people (like you) just like to bitch.

If people arent complaining about the current state of DirectX, why would a more advanced one all of a sudden become a problem?

Direct X is capable of handling any feature in current (and foreseeable future) graphics hardware. Don't blame MS for not writing in a feature for some magical yet unknown technology. As for sound - you don't even need DirectX for surround sound. There is nothing MS has done to "hold this back". If some game of yours doesn't have surround sound go blame the developer - they have no excuse.

They do have a very good excuse. They don't have the resources to write for more than one standard. Right now, thats EAX, which isnt the greatest solution. If creative pushed the tech ahead at a reasonable pace, and didnt rehash the same chipset over for 5 years, wrote decent drivers, and made hardware that doesnt cause compatibility problems with your system, then I wouldnt be complaining.

As for a unified game browser - Ever heard of DirectPlay? Yes, MS already provided this solution people just aren't using it. If you want DirectPlay to be rewritten to be the end-all of online gaming you're gonna have to pay some developers to code it then distribute it as a built in component of Windows so everyone has it....What's that rumbling sound? Uh oh - it's the lawyers stampeding like the "What's in your wallet?" Capitol one Visa Vikings.

If its not being used, theres a good reason. It probably isnt up to snuff. Again, the current DX isnt a legal problem (to my knowledge), so where are you getting these wild ideas? Why would any company other than gamespy (which they can stampede if they so desire) care? I would think that developers would be lining up if there was a proper solution.

If you want MS to come out and lay down the standards for the world go talk to your local attorney general first. In the meantime they have provided a platform that is capable of everything a console does and much much more. It's up to others to leverage that capability.

I already made a list of the things that consoles are capable of that is ineffective on the PC. Its not that it doesnt exist, its that it doesnt exist in a form that is effective and available enough.

I think you should just take your trollness home and play some nintendo if are so bitter at MS.

I think you should do the same. Again, Ive got no gripe with MS as a company. I play games on my PC as often as I do on consoles. They are different experiences, and it is clear where one is lacking, where one is superior, and where one has unfortunate untapped potential.

 

[Smilin]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't edit your post. Either stick by your stupid troll statement or don't make it in the first place.
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It was never my intention to troll, and after getting everyones wild reactions at how PC gaming ISNT dying, I realized that it could use a rewording to be more inline with the intention of the OP. Why is that a problem?

It's a problem because although I believe you were genuine in this case it leaves the impression that you trolled and are trying to weasel out of it. It's just bad form.

You obviously havent read a single word that I wrote. If anyone is trolling, it is you, by ignoring my replies to those very same questions, and trying to insinuate that I'm somehow saying all of this because I hate microsoft. Which I don't.

I haven't read *every* word you wrote, no. Honestly this is your post, not mine and it's simply not as important to me. All the quotes, requotes and all that are frankly more effort than I want to make to have a discussion. I can tell you ahead of time that you will win any argument or discussion we may have simply because I'll give up first 🙂 We're getting pretty close now.

To address your point: Outside programs are fantastic. Without them, we wouldnt know what IS capable. But there comes a time when a concept such as voice chat is so universally excellent, that the company that is responsible for the platform upon which we play our games, would do well to integrate it into the API so ALL games can take advantage of it, and developers can concentrate on making the games instead of duplicating technology. I am in no way advocating that anything be done to disable older programs - they are fantastic for backwards compatibility, as you have obviously realized. I am talking about the future, not the past. Youre just trolling by asking your question, because obviously its comparing apples to oranges. MS is one company, Nintendo and Sega are two competing companies.

(my boldface). No I wasn't trolling with this question. I was just trying to make you give an expected answer which you did. Nintendo and Sega/Sony/whoever are competing companies. Yet somehow I can voice chat between Microsoft and Linux right?! I'm trying to illustrate the point that you seem to have a double standard between PCs and consoles. You can't even voicechat or play online with a nintendo console but you aren't beating them up. I can voicechat with Microsoft produced products but you don't give them any credit. Did you even know that Messenger will soon interface with xbox live so you can chat in and out of game with your buddies on PC? Think nintendo/apple/sony/redhat or anyone are creating such technology? Who is holding us back again?

And youre putting words into my mouth. I don't gripe that MS is the standard for OSes, I wouldnt have it any other way. Id imagine it would suck if MS, Apple and Linux split the market three ways.

I'm also well aware that there are very likely legal issues involved. That hasn't stopped microsoft in the past. They need to figure out a way to make money out of it.

(my boldface) Yes it has. I have seen the code (already written!) with my own eyes all commented out with a message to that effect at the top. You have no idea.

...

As expected I'm growing weary with quotes and responses and whatnot. Lemme get down to a few points before I lose interest...

If I read you right what you would like to see is something akin to XBox Live for the PC. A universal place where PC players could all browse games and voicechat in one convenient location regardless of who wrote the game. For this to work Microsoft would have to write it (for free?? still haven't figured out why they would want to) then they would have to distribute it with Windows as they have with Windows Media player, the web browser etc.

They would get sued cross-eyed. Gamespy would come in with a lawyer and say - we want you to cover our lost profits for the next 10 years. If not them someone else. Do not kid yourself...this would happen. MS already got sued over including WMP and IE! Seriously. This is the reality of the situation. The other reality is that every game developer would have to get on board and they won't do it. Someone has to pay for the development costs of such a system and the natural source for that money is licensing to the game developers that use it. They won't go for it.


--

MS is not holding anyone back on graphics. Go take a look at Morrowind as a perfect example - those bozo's have leveraged everything that DirectX is capable of and are now having to delay their product for rewrite because hardware can't handle it. This is a very solid example of why your arguement is wrong.

All the standards for surround sound have been in place for ages. Why reinvent the wheel? Again, I'm using surround sound on all games that matter. I can't remember the last shooter I played that didn't have it. What is the problem here?? Sure creative sucks, we all know it. Somehow I'm still getting my surround on and I don't even have a creative card. It's hard to blame MS for this problem when the problem doesn't even exist.

If its not being used, theres a good reason. It probably isnt up to snuff. Again, the current DX isnt a legal problem (to my knowledge), so where are you getting these wild ideas? Why would any company other than gamespy (which they can stampede if they so desire) care? I would think that developers would be lining up if there was a proper solution.

Yes I'm sure they would line up if someone wrote their 'net code for them. Aint gonna happen. DirectPlay is as close as you'll get. The network code needed for a twitch shooter is vastly different than that needed for a RTS. DirectPlay works great for some games of "applet" quality and the standard is there. Beyond that you are dreaming.

Gamespy and one lawyer are all it takes dude. They are NOT gonna sit around while MS releases a competing product for free and bundles it with the OS in order to provide a standard. If not gamespy, then someone else.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: BD2003
There was once a time when PC games were far and above technologically superior to consoles.

That time will probably come again in the next few months as the console GPUs go about their regular scheduled aging process (just like today's video cards).

And this has nothing to do with the new consoles having better gfx - they do, but it doesnt matter.

What? My brain hurts.

DirectX is our platform, and it is now an afterthought. The only changes MS has made to DX since DX6 have been graphical.

How do you know that?

Let us count the ways that PC gaming has fallen behind.

Sound - 3d sound died with aureal. It is now creative or nothing, and their cards are unfortunately garbage. They can be garbage, cause theyre a monopoly. EAX just doesnt cut it. Why hasnt Directsound 3d been developed for other manufacturers to exploit? 3d sound hasnt fundamentally changed in years, because there is no driving force behind it.

The game developers are free to exploit the full capabilities of DirectSound any day now. There are tons of games with 5.1 and probably even 7.1 sound now. With a sound system that doesn't blow, the sound is just as good or better than what's available on anything else, no?

Voice - Leave it up to the developer to handle itself. Ensure that 10% of people have mics because of this, and because of that, those 10% of people wont use it. Nevermind the fact we could be using bluetooth headsets through their own channel with proper platform support, nope, we're still stuck using the same microphone and stereo channel that everything else uses. Still back in the 20th century with this one.

For people who want to talk to each other, there are choices like TeamSpeak and Ventrilo, which are used all over the place for clan matches and even casual servers. BF2 implements a VOIP system as well.

While we're at it, lets not unify server browsing. Lets not make a unified online gaming community like x-live. Lets just leave it up to the developers to develop this stuff to the least common denominator like EA that will build something up to the point that is merely passable. And then patch it when people complain.

I guess you haven't heard of GameSpy or All-Seeing Eye. Any gamer that hasn't heard of one of those doesn't deserve to be a gamer.

Performance metering could be built into the system, instead of letting each developer choose what they think are good settings for you.

Why? The game developers have a better idea of how their games perform than some third party.

Games are designed with $500 gf cards in mind...and they mostly still come on CDs.

Uh ok. Can you point me to a game that will not run with a Radeon 9500 PRO or GeForce FX series? Besides, even if you do find a couple, it's plain and simple, people need to upgrade their graphics cards, just like they need to get new consoles. If they can't keep up with the PC's technological pace, that's their fault.

But we have good gfx. I guess. Mostly just high res little bit better than last gen stuff, but its very high res. 😛

Just high res? What are you talking about? There have been games for 5 years that ran at 2048x1536 like Quake 3. Do you think BF2@2048x1536 looks just barely better than Quake 3?

What about HDR, bump/normal mapping, dynamic branching, geometry instancing, shaders, soft shadows, radiance mapping, and realtime light calculation (like Doom 3/Quake 4)? The PC still gives you the full flexibility to play at whatever resolution you want (and higher than the highest 1080 mode of Xbox 360), while with the consoles you never know what you're really getting, something upscaled to 1080, or what.

PC gaming used to be ahead of the game, and now its way, way behind.

No, it really isn't. Can you even download user-made mods or maps on consoles?