PC Gaming is stagnant...

[BD2003]

There was once a time when PC games were far and above technologically superior to consoles. And this has nothing to do with the new consoles having better gfx - they do, but it doesnt matter.

DirectX is our platform, and it is now an afterthought. The only changes MS has made to DX since DX6 have been graphical. Let us count the ways that PC gaming has fallen behind.

Sound - 3d sound died with aureal. It is now creative or nothing, and their cards are unfortunately garbage. They can be garbage, cause theyre a monopoly. EAX just doesnt cut it. Why hasnt Directsound 3d been developed for other manufacturers to exploit? 3d sound hasnt fundamentally changed in years, because there is no driving force behind it.

Voice - Leave it up to the developer to handle itself. Ensure that 10% of people have mics because of this, and because of that, those 10% of people wont use it. Nevermind the fact we could be using bluetooth headsets through their own channel with proper platform support, nope, we're still stuck using the same microphone and stereo channel that everything else uses. Still back in the 20th century with this one.

While we're at it, lets not unify server browsing. Lets not make a unified online gaming community like x-live. Lets just leave it up to the developers to develop this stuff to the least common denominator like EA that will build something up to the point that is merely passable. And then patch it when people complain.

Performance metering could be built into the system, instead of letting each developer choose what they think are good settings for you.

Games are designed with $500 gf cards in mind...and they mostly still come on CDs.

But we have good gfx. I guess. Mostly just high res little bit better than last gen stuff, but its very high res.

PC gaming used to be ahead of the game, and now its way, way behind.

 

[pontifex]

this is the 50000000000000th thread about this.
just stop it.

pc gaming is not dying.

 

[skace]

PC gaming is still ahead and it will always be ahead. But there are some valid points, such as EAX being retarded.

 

[Joemonkey]

you have to admit, he makes some good points, without coming off as an asshat

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: Joemonkey
you have to admit, he makes some good points, without coming off as an asshat

his only point is about sound...
and sound in games is fine to me.

anything else he says is merely opinion or not valid.

 

[Joemonkey]

Originally posted by: pontifex

Originally posted by: Joemonkey
you have to admit, he makes some good points, without coming off as an asshat

his only point is about sound...
and sound in games is fine to me.

anything else he says is merely opinion or not valid.

if you include voice and no unified place to find people to play with, then i agree with you

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: pontifex

Originally posted by: Joemonkey
you have to admit, he makes some good points, without coming off as an asshat

his only point is about sound...
and sound in games is fine to me.

anything else he says is merely opinion or not valid.

You just dont like me.

Obviously its merely my opinion. I just remember a time when PC's were on the cutting edge of everything, and now they are on the sharp edge of GFX only.

PC gaming wasnt always about "good enough". It was about being able to do things not even considered on consoles if you have the money.

But MS isnt holding up its end of the bargain. DirectX is basically our one and only platform, and it hasnt been upgraded properly in years. Where are our force feedback mice? Wireless voice chat? Video chat?

So much could be done. But no developer has the time to do it all, nor the inclination to do it to begin with when they know there is no set standard out there.

And now we get vista only halo 2, which is vista only for the sole reason of selling vista, not because of anything special about vista.

 

[NeoV]

PC sound is far behind? Why all the Creative Labs haters?

I have an Audigy2zs paired with Klipsch 5.1 Ultra's, I have the speakers properly aligned, and the sound friggen rocks! In HL2 and COD2, sometimes I'll literally cringe in my seat from some of the sounds coming behind me.

Play WoW, HL2, COD2, or FEAR, Psyconauts, and tell me PC gaming is dying.

I agree that a unified service like Xbox Live would be nice for multiplayer, but is it a necessity?

 

[MrChad]

Damned if they do and damned if they don't.

If Microsoft started dictating how server browsers should look and how voice support should be done, basically creating a "Live" system for the PC, developers and gamers alike would bitch about how they're abusing their power.

There's nothing stopping developers from creating open standards outside of DirectX for these types of things. Why is it Microsoft's responsibility?

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: NeoV
PC sound is far behind? Why all the Creative Labs haters?

I have an Audigy2zs paired with Klipsch 5.1 Ultra's, I have the speakers properly aligned, and the sound friggen rocks! In HL2 and COD2, sometimes I'll literally cringe in my seat from some of the sounds coming behind me.

Play WoW, HL2, COD2, or FEAR, Psyconauts, and tell me PC gaming is dying.

I agree that a unified service like Xbox Live would be nice for multiplayer, but is it a necessity?

Sound coming from behind you is nothing new. That was supported by DS3D back in the 90s.

Aureal had real time reflections. They got sued into the ground. Given 6 years of competition between the two like with Ati and Nvidia, and great enhancements would be coming out every year. We'd probably have real time sound modeling by now, 3d sound sources, full room modeling, HRTFs that sound above and below you that actually work, etc.

All creative has done in the past 5 years is modify eax enough to try and justify selling a new card. They ran on the same emu10k1 chip for almost forever. Now we've got X-fi, which is in the end, still glorified statistical canned reverb because that is merely good enough. And to be honest, half the time it doesnt work right, if it even works at all.

 

[pontifex]

why do we need a unified place for multiplayer? i never used xbox live so i don't understand what it is exactly.

isn' that what gamespy is for? hell, isn't the internet good enough for that?
each game has its own way of finding people to play with. why get mixed in with hundred of other people playing other games that have nothing to do with your game? wouldn't that make it harder?

these things seem rather weak for arguments as to why pc gaming is dead

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: MrChad
Damned if they do and damned if they don't.

If Microsoft started dictating how server browsers should look and how voice support should be done, basically creating a "Live" system for the PC, developers and gamers alike would bitch about how they're abusing their power.

There's nothing stopping developers from creating open standards outside of DirectX for these types of things. Why is it Microsoft's responsibility?

Because like it or not, games are for windows. Open standards are not going to come with windows. Can you name one open standard that is actually a successful standard? (as in almost ALL games use it?)

Do people complain that MS is abusing their power with Direct3d? Of course not. A community would be unnecessary, but appreciated if free. Either way, voice and video chat are technologies that were feasible years ago and no one is going to bother.

But when gfx sells games, and MS doesnt get a licensing fee from developers, why should they bother?

 

[homercles337]

Originally posted by: NeoV
I have an Audigy2zs paired with Klipsch 5.1 Ultra's, I have the speakers properly aligned, and the sound friggen rocks!

How about a pic? I have never understood the logic of 5.1 with a PC. Home theatre? Sure, but a PC? How do you get out of your desk without knocking over speakers? How do you walk to your desk without tripping on speaker cable? Where do you put your center channel speaker? Thats where my 21" Gateway is located. 2.1 is fine with me.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: pontifex
why do we need a unified place for multiplayer? i never used xbox live so i don't understand what it is exactly.

isn' that what gamespy is for? hell, isn't the internet good enough for that?
each game has its own way of finding people to play with. why get mixed in with hundred of other people playing other games that have nothing to do with your game? wouldn't that make it harder?

these things seem rather weak for arguments as to why pc gaming is dead

I said dying, not dead.

Im not talking about a website. I'm talking about a library of functions, well developed over years by programmers specifically assigned to this and this alone. Make it easy for developers to rank, make statistics, match players up by skill etc. It isnt necessary, but would be awesome.

Let the developers focus on making the games, not unnecessarily duplicating things that could be handled by the directx library.

 

[pontifex]

same thing...

i still don't see how anything you said is relevant to how pc gaming is dying...

just look at that other thread about the games being released this year. its FAR from dying.

 

[Lonyo]

Games come on CD's in the US maybe, but in less backwards parts of the world, they are 90% DVD.
Most games are not designed with $500 graphics cards in mind either. The companies would sell all of 2 copies that way.

 

[Fingolfin269]

I'm an example of how PC gaming is dying. I used to shun consoles and buy PC games. Now I don't plan to upgrade my PC much at all and plan to spend all of my money on a 360 and PS3. Why? Because the only different between the PC and 360/PS3 is graphics. I'll give up a bit of graphics/resolution to play comfortably from my couch on a widescreen HDTV.

Oh, and like 90% of the games on the PC will be on my console and I only care about ~5% of the 10% that's not so I'd have to rationalize spending $1000 just to play 2 or 3 games a year on the PC.

I agree with the OP. The only difference between PC and console gaming now is graphics. And even then there is a huge difference in comparison because consoles are HD gaming now. Sure people can play PC games in 1600x1200 but I honestly don't know anyone who does. Everyone I know plays in 1024x768 --> 1280x1024.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Originally posted by: Joemonkey
you have to admit, he makes some good points, without coming off as an asshat

Except he fails to recognize huge sellers the likes of HL2 and WoW. PC gaming will always be ahead of the game in online play and community.

 

[homercles337]

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
I'm an example of how PC gaming is dying. I used to shun consoles and buy PC games. Now I don't plan to upgrade my PC much at all and plan to spend all of my money on a 360 and PS3. Why? Because the only different between the PC and 360/PS3 is graphics. I'll give up a bit of graphics/resolution to play comfortably from my couch on a widescreen HDTV.

Oh, and like 90% of the games on the PC will be on my console and I only care about ~5% of the 10% that's not so I'd have to rationalize spending $1000 just to play 2 or 3 games a year on the PC.

I agree with the OP. The only difference between PC and console gaming now is graphics. And even then there is a huge difference in comparison because consoles are HD gaming now. Sure people can play PC games in 1600x1200 but I honestly don't know anyone who does. Everyone I know plays in 1024x768 --> 1280x1024.

Well i primarily play FPC/RPG games. I have tried to play Halo2 on my buddies xbox and just cant do it. Keyboard+mouse > *.

Also, i play at 1680x1050. Is that close enough (92% as many pixels) to 1600x1200.

 

[Fingolfin269]

Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles

Originally posted by: Joemonkey
you have to admit, he makes some good points, without coming off as an asshat

Except he fails to recognize huge sellers the likes of HL2 and WoW. PC gaming will always be ahead of the game in online play and community.

HL2 would be a huge seller on any console as well.

And, I'm not for this or anything, there is some rumor floating around that WoW is going to be ported to the 360. I'll believe it when I see it but if they can figure out a control scheme I'm sure it's possible. WoW isn't exactly complex.

 

[Fingolfin269]

Originally posted by: homercles337

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
I'm an example of how PC gaming is dying. I used to shun consoles and buy PC games. Now I don't plan to upgrade my PC much at all and plan to spend all of my money on a 360 and PS3. Why? Because the only different between the PC and 360/PS3 is graphics. I'll give up a bit of graphics/resolution to play comfortably from my couch on a widescreen HDTV.

Oh, and like 90% of the games on the PC will be on my console and I only care about ~5% of the 10% that's not so I'd have to rationalize spending $1000 just to play 2 or 3 games a year on the PC.

I agree with the OP. The only difference between PC and console gaming now is graphics. And even then there is a huge difference in comparison because consoles are HD gaming now. Sure people can play PC games in 1600x1200 but I honestly don't know anyone who does. Everyone I know plays in 1024x768 --> 1280x1024.

Well i primarily play FPC/RPG games. I have tried to play Halo2 on my buddies xbox and just cant do it. Keyboard+mouse > *.

Also, i play at 1680x1050. Is that close enough (92% as many pixels) to 1600x1200.

Sure it is close enough but I don't actually 'know' you. My point is the majority of people who game on the PC are probably using 17" CRTs and gaming at a resolution of 1024x768 --> 1280x1024 range somewhere in there. And I'd say your average person who plays a video game on a PC would much rather play that same game, in HD, on their 50" + widescreen TV.

 

[CVSiN]

Originally posted by: BD2003
There was once a time when PC games were far and above technologically superior to consoles. And this has nothing to do with the new consoles having better gfx - they do, but it doesnt matter.

DirectX is our platform, and it is now an afterthought. The only changes MS has made to DX since DX6 have been graphical. Let us count the ways that PC gaming has fallen behind.

Sound - 3d sound died with aureal. It is now creative or nothing, and their cards are unfortunately garbage. They can be garbage, cause theyre a monopoly. EAX just doesnt cut it. Why hasnt Directsound 3d been developed for other manufacturers to exploit? 3d sound hasnt fundamentally changed in years, because there is no driving force behind it.

Voice - Leave it up to the developer to handle itself. Ensure that 10% of people have mics because of this, and because of that, those 10% of people wont use it. Nevermind the fact we could be using bluetooth headsets through their own channel with proper platform support, nope, we're still stuck using the same microphone and stereo channel that everything else uses. Still back in the 20th century with this one.

While we're at it, lets not unify server browsing. Lets not make a unified online gaming community like x-live. Lets just leave it up to the developers to develop this stuff to the least common denominator like EA that will build something up to the point that is merely passable. And then patch it when people complain.

Performance metering could be built into the system, instead of letting each developer choose what they think are good settings for you.

Games are designed with $500 gf cards in mind...and they mostly still come on CDs.

But we have good gfx. I guess. Mostly just high res little bit better than last gen stuff, but its very high res.

PC gaming used to be ahead of the game, and now its way, way behind.

This is EXACTLY why M$ is forcing halo2 and other new games to Vista Only...
becasue the min requirements of Vista alone is right at top tier PCs right now.. so this will force EVERYONE to upgrade to new CPUS ram and cards...
which for a while at least makes developing for Vista cutting edge and gets rid of low end PCs

 

[Fingolfin269]

Originally posted by: CVSiN

Originally posted by: BD2003
There was once a time when PC games were far and above technologically superior to consoles. And this has nothing to do with the new consoles having better gfx - they do, but it doesnt matter.

DirectX is our platform, and it is now an afterthought. The only changes MS has made to DX since DX6 have been graphical. Let us count the ways that PC gaming has fallen behind.

Sound - 3d sound died with aureal. It is now creative or nothing, and their cards are unfortunately garbage. They can be garbage, cause theyre a monopoly. EAX just doesnt cut it. Why hasnt Directsound 3d been developed for other manufacturers to exploit? 3d sound hasnt fundamentally changed in years, because there is no driving force behind it.

Voice - Leave it up to the developer to handle itself. Ensure that 10% of people have mics because of this, and because of that, those 10% of people wont use it. Nevermind the fact we could be using bluetooth headsets through their own channel with proper platform support, nope, we're still stuck using the same microphone and stereo channel that everything else uses. Still back in the 20th century with this one.

While we're at it, lets not unify server browsing. Lets not make a unified online gaming community like x-live. Lets just leave it up to the developers to develop this stuff to the least common denominator like EA that will build something up to the point that is merely passable. And then patch it when people complain.

Performance metering could be built into the system, instead of letting each developer choose what they think are good settings for you.

Games are designed with $500 gf cards in mind...and they mostly still come on CDs.

But we have good gfx. I guess. Mostly just high res little bit better than last gen stuff, but its very high res.

PC gaming used to be ahead of the game, and now its way, way behind.

This is EXACTLY why M$ is forcing halo2 and other new games to Vista Only...
becasue the min requirements of Vista alone is right at top tier PCs right now.. so this will force EVERYONE to upgrade to new CPUS ram and cards...
which for a while at least makes developing for Vista cutting edge and gets rid of low end PCs

Well, and MS could possibly see it as an opportunity to promote more 360 sales. Why upgrade to Vista just for Halo when you can go buy a 360 and open a whole new world?

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles

Originally posted by: Joemonkey
you have to admit, he makes some good points, without coming off as an asshat

Except he fails to recognize huge sellers the likes of HL2 and WoW. PC gaming will always be ahead of the game in online play and community.

I dont fail to recognize them. Those are fantastic games. But they are diamonds in the rough. Those two games suceeded where others have failed I believe in a large part because of the resources and willingness of those companies to go above and beyond to make sure that everything is right, MS be damned. They are still supported, which is rare. The PC will have its place for mmorpgs and rts/fps...for now. It is only a matter of time before consoles take over those genres as well.

There are a number of things that can be done to bring PC gaming back to its glory, rather than just a few top sellers and a ton of games that only the most hardcore even hear about. Primarily, PC gaming would need to be understood as a *platform* of its own, rather than a program that runs on windows.

-A unified patching and auto-updating system. Essentially windows update for games and drivers that actually works.
-Anti-cheating protection built into the OS, where it can most effectively stop cheats.
-Parental controls (theyre trying in vista, Ive heard)
-Unified matchmaking/ranking

I'd also like to see optional definable performance standards. For instance:
Lvl 1 - 2ghz, 512mb, shader 2.0, 128mb card
Lvl 2 - 3ghz, 1gbram, shader 3.0, 256mb card

This would give the developers a specific set of targets to aim for, rather than just throwing effects in here and there, not caring where the bottleneck is, and assuming the user can figure out all the options and the effects it will have on performance. Optional, of course.

I'd also love to see a protected mode where windows can allocate a specific amount of memory to a game, and put all other background programs on pause. Nothing can touch that memory, and your full system can be dedicated to the game at hand, provided you can deal with a longer loading time and the inability to alt-tab or receive IMs in the background.

And most importantly all the DX standards other than D3D brought up to the 21st century.

MS and developers could make an assload of money through all this, if they actually worked together properly. My guess is MS thinks it can make more money off of xbox and doesnt want to sabotage it. And of course, its all opt-in, but no serious developer would bother otherwise.

They could make Vista gaming edition, for instance, and I'd certainly pay for it.

 

[MrChad]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: MrChad
Damned if they do and damned if they don't.

If Microsoft started dictating how server browsers should look and how voice support should be done, basically creating a "Live" system for the PC, developers and gamers alike would bitch about how they're abusing their power.

There's nothing stopping developers from creating open standards outside of DirectX for these types of things. Why is it Microsoft's responsibility?

Because like it or not, games are for windows. Open standards are not going to come with windows. Can you name one open standard that is actually a successful standard? (as in almost ALL games use it?)

Do people complain that MS is abusing their power with Direct3d? Of course not. A community would be unnecessary, but appreciated if free. Either way, voice and video chat are technologies that were feasible years ago and no one is going to bother.

But when gfx sells games, and MS doesnt get a licensing fee from developers, why should they bother?

Gamespy has been offering a universal server browser for years.

And remember, the purpose of DirectX is to offer a common set of APIs for "direct" hardware access for game developers. Microsoft doesn't make graphics or sound engines (other than their own game development groups). What you're proposing and what Microsoft did with Xbox Live goes well beyond the scope of DirectX.