PBS Frontline: Al Qaeda's New Front

[Stunt]

raildogg, you cannot just blame muslims for all the murders posted on that site. Look at the number of murders worldwide. This is an occurance accross all races, religions and countries. Do i care what their religion is?...of course not, it is irrelevant. Do you know how many murders happen in the US?...far more per capita than most of the world homicides per capita. How many muslims live in the US?...muslim pop.

Muslim social scientists and researchers have spent a great deal of time trying to determine the number of Muslims in the United States. Most accept the estimate of from 5 million to 8 million.

So putting islam to blame for murders and crimes is pretty ignorant...

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: raildogg

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: raildogg

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: raildogg
This is a very very interesting, but extremely controversial website. I dont agree with some of the stuff here. But still.

Text

So why link it? How many times a day do you bash the religion of Islam? 5? 10? Do you do it at the dinner table too?

LIKE I SAID I DONT ENDORSE THIS WEBSITE. Some parts make "some" sense, though.

What makes sense? Show me.

Scroll down and look at all the atrocities the radical muslims are commiting and have commited.

10/3/02 USA Maryland 5 0 Muslim sniper kills three men and two women in five separate attacks.

Radical Muslim?

yes

and no they aren't geniuses. just a large group of well funded determined people intent on killing civlians. being suicidal also makes things that much easier.

He wasn't radical. How was he radical? He didn't kill because of religion.
He is just a crazy guy.

I don't see how you came to the conclusion that he is radical. Because he said "Allah Akbar"? Then there needs to be a new term for radical because every Muslim is radical.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
and no they aren't geniuses. just a large group of well funded determined people intent on killing civlians. being suicidal also makes things that much easier.

I think they are trying to be heard and reacting to oppression they have suffered over the years through US attacks and involvement in their lives.

In their eyes, you are the terrorist. The US invades the ME as if it was its own backyard, so when members of the ME invade the US, everybody gets upset...i really don't understand why this is so hard to believe.

Also, i believe the Japanese are the most suicidal on the planet =)

 

[arsbanned]

I see a tendency to underestimate these guys. They have doctors and scientists just as we do. Their means of fighting does not preclude capability.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: arsbanned
I see a tendency to underestimate these guys. They have doctors and scientists just as we do. Their means of fighting does not preclude capability.

Agreed, conventional war is a lost cause, why would anyone do that with a powerhouse like the US. All you need is a few missiles pointed at precious targets and a grassroots international gorrilla warfare. Similar to Vietnam...making use of the environment.

I can almost ganantee if the US pulls out of the ME entirely...the 'terrorists' will have no reason to attack the US. Their goal is not to take over the US but deter US opression and involvement in the ME.

 

[Aimster]

Everything is linked to Israel-Palestine.

 

[arsbanned]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: arsbanned
I see a tendency to underestimate these guys. They have doctors and scientists just as we do. Their means of fighting does not preclude capability.

Agreed, conventional war is a lost cause, why would anyone do that with a powerhouse like the US. All you need is a few missiles pointed at precious targets and a grassroots international gorrilla warfare. Similar to Vietnam...making use of the environment.

I can almost ganantee if the US pulls out of the ME entirely...the 'terrorists' will have no reason to attack the US. Their goal is not to take over the US but deter US opression and involvement in the ME.

Agreed, but as time goes on I fear their goals may be evolving and they see a big opportunity to do much more than simply expel the U.S. from the ME. The more we cooperate with them (which IMO is what Bush is doing with his actions and policies) the higher they will reach.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: arsbanned
I see a tendency to underestimate these guys. They have doctors and scientists just as we do. Their means of fighting does not preclude capability.

I started this thread about profiling these terrorists about a year ago. Fighting the core group will take years. I think only democracy and transparency can stop or slow them down. Why? Because they bring enlightenment and prosperity.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: arsbanned

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: arsbanned
I see a tendency to underestimate these guys. They have doctors and scientists just as we do. Their means of fighting does not preclude capability.

Agreed, conventional war is a lost cause, why would anyone do that with a powerhouse like the US. All you need is a few missiles pointed at precious targets and a grassroots international gorrilla warfare. Similar to Vietnam...making use of the environment.

I can almost ganantee if the US pulls out of the ME entirely...the 'terrorists' will have no reason to attack the US. Their goal is not to take over the US but deter US opression and involvement in the ME.

Agreed, but as time goes on I fear their goals may be evolving and they see a big opportunity to do much more than simply expel the U.S. from the ME. The more we cooperate with them (which IMO is what Bush is doing with his actions and policies) the higher they will reach.

Bush's actions are two fold. One is to cement democracy in the ME, which will increase transparency and prosperity. The other is to secure the major energy supplies.

 

[arsbanned]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: arsbanned
I see a tendency to underestimate these guys. They have doctors and scientists just as we do. Their means of fighting does not preclude capability.

I started this thread about profiling these terrorists about a year ago. Fighting the core group will take years. I think only democracy and transparency can stop or slow them down. Why? Because they bring enlightenment and prosperity.

1. I think you and I may disagree on what constitutes "Democracy" (supporting one regime over another, occupying certain countries doesn't cut it, IMO)
2. Why should we assume Democracy will work for the ME?

Bush's actions are two fold. One is to cement democracy in the ME, which will increase transparency and prosperity. The other is to secure the major energy supplies.

At least someone is honest. You do realize I'm sure that these reasons depart from the originally stated reasons offered by this admin.

 

[Aimster]

Why will democracy not work in the ME?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Why will democracy not work in the ME?

Because it's being rammed down the throats of a country whose culture is several millenia old.

Imagine China taking over the US and converting us to communism in a blink of eye. Think that will take hold?

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: arsbanned

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: arsbanned
I see a tendency to underestimate these guys. They have doctors and scientists just as we do. Their means of fighting does not preclude capability.

I started this thread about profiling these terrorists about a year ago. Fighting the core group will take years. I think only democracy and transparency can stop or slow them down. Why? Because they bring enlightenment and prosperity.

1. I think you and I may disagree on what constitutes "Democracy" (supporting one regime over another, occupying certain countries doesn't cut it, IMO)
2. Why should we assume Democracy will work for the ME?

Bush's actions are two fold. One is to cement democracy in the ME, which will increase transparency and prosperity. The other is to secure the major energy supplies.

At least someone is honest. You do realize I'm sure that these reasons depart from the originally stated reasons offered by this admin.

The initial reasoning was perfectly legitimate in light of the intelligence he had. Nevertheless, no one goes to war without thinking of the opportunities, and energy was one of them, whether or not Bush actually said. Hell, everyone was thinking.

As for the insurgents, we must remember that there are different layers of any group. While those at the bottom are the most passionate and ready to die for their cause, it is those at the top that control the foot-soldiers, using religion or whatever as their guiding light to ultimate domination. Those at the top are no different than their ultimate opponent, except they want to be in charge. The overall leadership of the insurgency are millionaires and billionaires who want to regain control of Iraq and control her wealth. Who knows, if they were to ever regain control, they might institute a limited democracy. In the end, they want the same things we want, power. The major difference is that the United States has a lot more to offer Iraqis.

While the insurgents' leader use God, the United States is using enlightenment. Who will win out? This is the ultimate question that will determine the fate of man. Do we go backwards or forward? So far, it looks like enlightenment is winning in every other part of the world.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Dari
The initial reasoning was perfectly legitimate in light of the intelligence he had. Nevertheless, no one goes to war without thinking of the opportunities, and energy was one of them, whether or not Bush actually said. Hell, everyone was thinking.

You mean in light of the falsified, exaggerated, and redacted intelligence he had?

As for the insurgents, we must remember that there are different layers of any group. While those at the bottom are the most passionate and ready to die for their cause, it is those at the top that control the foot-soldiers, using religion or whatever as their guiding light to ultimate domination. Those at the top are no different than their ultimate opponent, except they want to be in charge. The overall leadership of the insurgency are millionaires and billionaires who want to regain control of Iraq and control her wealth. Who knows, if they were to ever regain control, they might institute a limited democracy. In the end, they want the same things we want, power. The major difference is that the United States has a lot more to offer Iraqis.

While the insurgents' leader use God, the United States is using enlightenment. Who will win out? This is the ultimate question that will determine the fate of man. Do we go backwards or forward? So far, it looks like enlightenment is winning in every other part of the world.

Enlightment? Bush's version of enlightment is pretty damn dark.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Aimster
Why will democracy not work in the ME?

Because it's being rammed down the throats of a country whose culture is several millenia old.

Imagine China taking over the US and converting us to communism in a blink of eye. Think that will take hold?

If the people want it, yes.

Look at the Soviet Union - Russia.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
and no they aren't geniuses. just a large group of well funded determined people intent on killing civlians. being suicidal also makes things that much easier.

I think they are trying to be heard and reacting to oppression they have suffered over the years through US attacks and involvement in their lives.

In their eyes, you are the terrorist. The US invades the ME as if it was its own backyard, so when members of the ME invade the US, everybody gets upset...i really don't understand why this is so hard to believe.

Also, i believe the Japanese are the most suicidal on the planet =)

which is clearly bullsh*t. everyones got a sob story. just look at history. asia and europe recovered and got back on their feet. the middle east degenerated. personal responsibility isn't the strong suit of a victim you know...and that area has been playing the victim card for a long time now.

and of course others like dr king and ghandi reacted to oppression rather differently. are the arabs inferior and incapable of such decisions? or did they simply make a choice to embrace hatred and violence? hitler was "reacting to oppression" after all... so his actions were justified and inevitable eh

and oppression? please. look at saudi arabia. it is the islamic wonderland, oil funding extremist religion. and from there 19 hijackers who killed for religion were born. if the west is keeping saudi arabia from being as fundamentalist as it could be...and that makes these people angry. thats perfectly fine by me.

and calling everyone terrorist degrades the word into meaningless really. these "terrorists" are intent on killing for holy war. not goals of political nature that are reasonable. western civilizations existence and success offends them. they believe that their religion makes them superior to all, and the fact that their society has failed to advance just makes them angry and ready to blame everyone else for their own failings. they cannot be wrong, they have to believe in their backwards ways because of faith, and if its not working for them, they blame others. thats just how it is.

and well.. its also the startrek where hell breaks loose when primitive cultures are given technology and power they should not have yet. saudi arabia was nothing before the west went in and developed the oil. it was absolutely nothing but primitive, and it had the primitive culture that came with it. the deal the monachy struck with us was that we would not interfere with their backwards culture as long as we got oil and gave them money, and built their country up using our expertise. it is why we were chosen over the more nosy brits. its why all the foreign contractors in saudi arabia have to live in those separate compounds, to keep from polluting their precious culture. more like let them freeze themselves in the past and hold to absurd ways of thinking. perhaps we are to blame... we were too soft and didnt force them to stop with the total bs.. let them live the way they wanted ..and this is what happened

and missing out on the cold war are we? guess which side the arab states chose? yes the wrong side.


and really... we don't go and bomb some civilians in the middle east just to make a point. let alone make attacks that attempt to maximize civilian casualties... if we had the same mind set as terrorists, there would be a smoking crater where the middle east used to be. so it doesn't matter what we are in the eyes of ignorant deluded people. its meaningless as if i said that in my eyes you are evil because you oppose me commiting genocide. not all opinions are valid.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Aimster
Why will democracy not work in the ME?

Because it's being rammed down the throats of a country whose culture is several millenia old.

Imagine China taking over the US and converting us to communism in a blink of eye. Think that will take hold?

If the people want it, yes.

Look at the Soviet Union - Russia.

You're joking, right? You think the people wanted to be slaughtered by the millions?

 

[0roo0roo]

its not a matter of it taking hold. its a matter of whether the people will accept and understand the need for all the liberal institutions that need to accompany a successful democracy. plain voting is nothing.. you can get one man one vote one time... or well..hitler

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
and no they aren't geniuses. just a large group of well funded determined people intent on killing civlians. being suicidal also makes things that much easier.

I think they are trying to be heard and reacting to oppression they have suffered over the years through US attacks and involvement in their lives.

In their eyes, you are the terrorist. The US invades the ME as if it was its own backyard, so when members of the ME invade the US, everybody gets upset...i really don't understand why this is so hard to believe.

Also, i believe the Japanese are the most suicidal on the planet =)

which is clearly bullsh*t. everyones got a sob story. just look at history. asia and europe recovered and got back on their feet. the middle east degenerated. personal responsibility isn't the strong suit of a victim you know...and that area has been playing the victim card for a long time now.

and of course others like dr king and ghandi reacted to oppression rather differently. are the arabs inferior and incapable of such decisions? or did they simply make a choice to embrace hatred and violence? hitler was "reacting to oppression" after all... so his actions were justified and inevitable eh

and oppression? please. look at saudi arabia. it is the islamic wonderland, oil funding extremist religion. and from there 19 hijackers who killed for religion were born. if the west is keeping saudi arabia from being as fundamentalist as it could be...and that makes these people angry. thats perfectly fine by me.

and calling everyone terrorist degrades the word into meaningless really. these "terrorists" are intent on killing for holy war. not goals of political nature that are reasonable. western civilizations existence and success offends them. they believe that their religion makes them superior to all, and the fact that their society has failed to advance just makes them angry and ready to blame everyone else for their own failings. they cannot be wrong, they have to believe in their backwards ways because of faith, and if its not working for them, they blame others. thats just how it is.

and well.. its also the startrek where hell breaks loose when primitive cultures are given technology and power they should not have yet. saudi arabia was nothing before the west went in and developed the oil. it was absolutely nothing but primitive, and it had the primitive culture that came with it. the deal the monachy struck with us was that we would not interfere with their backwards culture as long as we got oil and gave them money, and built their country up using our expertise. it is why we were chosen over the more nosy brits. its why all the foreign contractors in saudi arabia have to live in those separate compounds, to keep from polluting their precious culture. more like let them freeze themselves in the past and hold to absurd ways of thinking. perhaps we are to blame... we were too soft and didnt force them to stop with the total bs.. let them live the way they wanted ..and this is what happened

and missing out on the cold war are we? guess which side the arab states chose? yes the wrong side.


and really... we don't go and bomb some civilians in the middle east just to make a point. let alone make attacks that attempt to maximize civilian casualties... if we had the same mind set as terrorists, there would be a smoking crater where the middle east used to be. so it doesn't matter what we are in the eyes of ignorant deluded people. its meaningless as if i said that in my eyes all babies are responsible for the sins of their ancestors and thus are terrorists in my eyes.

What do you mean asia and europe got back on their feet. Europe has only been democracy in recent years and did not have democracy forced on them buy the US. I have no idea what parallel you are drawing.

Arabs did not embrace "hatred and violence", dictatorships exist all over the world, even our own democracies are engineered to give a leader a 4 year 'dictatorship' over the country, if you haven't realized this you are ignorant to your own political system. The only thing that sets the ME apart from us is we get to change our dictator and our cultures are different (which i don't see as a negative, welcome to the real world).

I don't think the saudis are the ideal islamic state. actually far from it. but invading country to country enforcing democracy in a region with 450million people is more than nutty.

terrorists mearly inflict fear and terror into populations. If the US killed 100,000 of my countrymen, yeah, i'd think you are terrorists...i sure as hell wouldnt go vote. How can i trust numbers like those...most innocent people. OK city bombing...terrorist...holy war...right...islam...uh huh...you need to look up terrorist in the dictionary before you critique my use of the word.

I have no idea why the cold war has any relevance at all.
The arab people didnt choose sides, you admitted yourself that it isnt a democracy, how can you assume the governments speak for the people. Do you believe in every last one of bush's policies?...

And..i don't think civilian casualties are being spared, at 100,000 dead that isnt precision at all.
If you had the same mindset as muslims you'd be a caring people with full respect for others.
If you had the same mindset as terrorists, you'd probably be doing roughly the same thing you are now.

 

[0roo0roo]

what do i mean by asia and europe got back on their feet? europe was bombed into oblivion, asia was too, and suffered from colonial rule. yet both chose to rebuild and modernize instead of becoming victims. and well they didn't have vast oil wealth either. i guess its easier to play victim when others do your work for you.

and i'm sorry, you are simply ignorant of history. japan had democracy forced upon it. germany? oh come on...do you remember us shaking hands with hitler at the end and churchill saying "byegones will be bygones... oh well jolly good war that was...lets just move on now..."

4 year dictator? i'm sorry, you just hang yourself by spewing such nonsense.

your use of the word terrorist generalizes it into complete meaningless. killing to win world war 2 against hitler would make us terrorists by your absurd use of the term.

and i don't care if saudi arabia isn't your ideal of an islamic state. it is about the closest thing to the ideal for the fundamentalists who commit terror, and thats what matters. and the fact that they are allowed to have such a state with minimal interference yet still aren't happy says something doesnt it. not forcing anything down their throats leads to terror, massive intolerance of other religions, massive oppression of half their populations..... all made possible because they controlled the oil spigot. western nations that would normally throw a fit over such nonsense..well oil shuts them up good.

you have no idea why the cold war has any relevance at all? remember its all the usa's fault right? the arabs have any power? do regiems exist because there are no citizen support? of course not. playing the victim card again? of course.

as for civilian casualties, i think your numbers are probably a little off. that being said, they are nothing compared to what would happen if civilian casualties were not actively being avoided by the us. if the us fought like terrorists, well... as i said, the middle east would be a lake of glass. so really, stop with the labeling of everyone as terrorist.

 

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Aimster
Why will democracy not work in the ME?

Because it's being rammed down the throats of a country whose culture is several millenia old.

Imagine China taking over the US and converting us to communism in a blink of eye. Think that will take hold?

If the people want it, yes.

Look at the Soviet Union - Russia.

Its because the whole system completely collapsed. Its not whether the people wanted it or not. :thumbsdown:

 

[0roo0roo]

you can watch it online now

 

[MadRat]

Communism didn't so much as collapse as the government failed to honor its debts.

The world largely let the Soviets off the hook as far as debt goes in exchange for dismantling the CCCP.

 

[Proletariat]

People are afraid because some people understand this. If you aren't afraid you might not have as much going on up there as you think. The oppression of non-white countries will come back to bite the USA and Europe in the arse. Europe less so because of their progressive polices. We will get hit hard. Latin American and South America are subdued. Africa is in ruins. Japan is pretty much a vassal state with little or no army.

The real contenders left are the Middle East and Asia. The Middle East, being the hot-headed folks they are, have taken a very unorganized response to Western aggression. It is Asia that scares me. Anti-Americanism(not Islamic) is rising in southeast Asia, and the islands and it is already VERY strong in China and the Koreas. China is just as anti-American as any Middle Eastern country, probably even more so in fact, but they are going about it in a slow, methodical, and very cunning way. They will build up their economy and humongous army and strike when the moment is ripe. The past has been defined by huge wars and the future will surely be an ever-escalating chain of wars as well.

The sick thing I have realized is we don't have to worry about the nuclear war. The world somehow WANTS to maintain itself just enough to be able to fight another war in the future.

Really from my travels the only country I have seen which is not significantly anti-American without being forced to LIKE America is India. The future right now is very uncertain.

 

[MadRat]

Read my lips: China is not a military threat on the strategic scale yet. Key word being yet.

If China acquires fighter-bombers or tactical bombers that can reach Japan with impunity then we have a problem. Taiwan has long since been within range of China; they are already threatened by missiles, rockets, and fighters. The problem if they hit Japan is that they largely have the ability to corner off South East Asia from resupply by America sealift forces.

Don't get me wrong, China right now possesses fighters capable of flying near Japan, perhaps even far enough to draw out Japanese air defense forces. China's current crop of bombers have radar signatures equal to medium-sized commercial airliners and have little chance to sneak through Japan's defenses. The means to send bombers or fighter-bombers would basically hinge on outright force of escort. But if they do that then it requires the entire fighter force to make a dent in the defense.

Giving China high performance fighter-bombers like the SU-24 or tactical bombers like the TU-22M makes any one-time trip more than possible to plan with certainty to make it on target. The difference here is that the defenders would have to respect the end run around the defenses. This acquisition of new bombers might therefore allow China to play an unprecedented nuclear trump card over Japan's head. As it is now there isn't too much of a threat by Chinese nuclear forces.

As it is now there is little chance China could muster enough land force to even invade South Korea through their North Korea brother, not that the two even get along. (The 3/4 million man army was to deter Chinese aggression more so than for invasion of the South.) Nor could they muster enough to take a land war to any of their southern neighbors without having any realistic "ace in the hole" against American aircraft carriers. The Chinese do not have the economy nor the transportation to move their people fast enough to become a threat anytime soon. They probably never will scale that type of force due to the obvious petroleum needs necessary to sustain that kind of force.

I think China would rather try to starve out the economies of the West. Direct military confrontation offers them little in return. They are collectively too smart to engage in such risky behavior. So don't look for them to even be too eager to buy long range strike aircraft in the immediate future. Instead look for them to spend themselves into a civilian economy that brings the world powers to their knees.