Pats = cheaters? Confirmed

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Yreka
Fitting punishment would be to force them to use Matt Millen as their GM for the next 5 years

That would be a death penalty

 

[paulxcook]

Originally posted by: BlinderBomber

Originally posted by: paulxcook
(compelling arguments)

Your argument makes no sense. The tape was taken in the first quarter of the game. It had no impact on the Patriots / Jets game itself. The outcome of that game was NOT affected by this incident. (How could it be if the tape was taken in the first quarter?)

Second, the patriots were found to have been videotaping the Jets sending in defensive signals. That's it. Everything else is just a rumor at this point. The other points people have raised, namely that 'gamesmanship' or whatever, is a big part of football is true to a point. Teams constantly try to get copies of playbooks, understand calls, etc. That's why Reche Caldwell was 'working out' for the Jets last week - they wanted the dirt on the Patriots' playbook. Teams hire all sorts of people to write down signals, observe them with binoculars, etc. The point I'm trying to make is that the Patriots violated league policy and should be punished. NFL fans should wake up to the fact that their violation isn't that much worse than what teams already do. Yes, they got caught. Yes, punish them.

Third, there is no precedent for anything more than losing draft picks. In previous incidents of league infractions, teams have lost a draft pick in the upcoming draft. There is no precedent or reason to issue suspensions or reverse the outcome of games. We're talking events that make videotaping play signals seem pretty mild.

The worst punishment for the Patriots, by far, is the bad press this situation has generated. The league can't do much worse than that.

My point was never that the footage helped the Pats win. Honestly the Pats wouldn't have needed game tape to win against the Jets. It's the Jets. And further, as we all know, the tape was still in the camera when it was confiscated, early in the 1st quarter. It doesn't matter. If you cheat like that during a game, you should forfeit the game. I doubt it will happen, but it's nice to think about. The NCAA has a leg up on the NFL in this because they're not as adversely economically affected when they bring down the hammer on cheaters.

Are you really still going with the "it's not REALLY cheating" schtick? Bringing former players in for a "work out" isn't against the rules. Figuring out signals while on the field is not against the rules, and has of course been a part of football for decades. Per the NFL, doing those things isn't cheating. However, videotaping signals is CHEATING. Hence the stern letter the league sent out emphasizing that it is, indeed, not ok to do this. Furthermore, the Pats got caught, no one else has. Further, you can't write down signals on paper, synch them to legit game tape, and use that for later game preparation against, say, a division rival that you're playing again in week 15. So no, it's no the same, nor is it really even close. Scribbles on paper vs. edit-ready, archivable media: no comparison.

Of course there's no precedent for any of the other stuff. No team has been as arrogant or as stupid as BB and the Pats organization. What kind of a belligerent moron do you have to be to tape your former protege's defensive signals in his own house? But that's beside the point. No other team has been proven to or even investigated publicly for taping other teams' signals. There's no precedent because no one's been this stupid before.

No, there's no proof YET that the Pats were disrupting or listening in on offensive calls over the radio waves, but they're being investigated for it. So it's more than just rumor. We'll see what happens there. Regardless of what happens with it, the taped signals alone show Belicheck and his crooked organization for what they are: cheaters who don't have enough confidence in themselves to win the right way.

Enjoy the asterisk next to your 3 rings. No one will officially edit the record books, but no one will look at them the same ever again. Even Pats fans like you, I suspect. I agree that this is worse than whatever punishment the NFL decides.

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: Yreka
Fitting punishment would be to force them to use Matt Millen as their GM for the next 5 years

"Lets draft receivers from rounds 1 through 7"

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: paulxcook

Originally posted by: BlinderBomber

Originally posted by: paulxcook
(compelling arguments)

Your argument makes no sense. The tape was taken in the first quarter of the game. It had no impact on the Patriots / Jets game itself. The outcome of that game was NOT affected by this incident. (How could it be if the tape was taken in the first quarter?)

Second, the patriots were found to have been videotaping the Jets sending in defensive signals. That's it. Everything else is just a rumor at this point. The other points people have raised, namely that 'gamesmanship' or whatever, is a big part of football is true to a point. Teams constantly try to get copies of playbooks, understand calls, etc. That's why Reche Caldwell was 'working out' for the Jets last week - they wanted the dirt on the Patriots' playbook. Teams hire all sorts of people to write down signals, observe them with binoculars, etc. The point I'm trying to make is that the Patriots violated league policy and should be punished. NFL fans should wake up to the fact that their violation isn't that much worse than what teams already do. Yes, they got caught. Yes, punish them.

Third, there is no precedent for anything more than losing draft picks. In previous incidents of league infractions, teams have lost a draft pick in the upcoming draft. There is no precedent or reason to issue suspensions or reverse the outcome of games. We're talking events that make videotaping play signals seem pretty mild.

The worst punishment for the Patriots, by far, is the bad press this situation has generated. The league can't do much worse than that.

My point was never that the footage helped the Pats win. Honestly the Pats wouldn't have needed game tape to win against the Jets. It's the Jets. And further, as we all know, the tape was still in the camera when it was confiscated, early in the 1st quarter. It doesn't matter. If you cheat like that during a game, you should forfeit the game. I doubt it will happen, but it's nice to think about. The NCAA has a leg up on the NFL in this because they're not as adversely economically affected when they bring down the hammer on cheaters.

Are you really still going with the "it's not REALLY cheating" schtick? Bringing former players in for a "work out" isn't against the rules. Figuring out signals while on the field is not against the rules, and has of course been a part of football for decades. Per the NFL, doing those things isn't cheating. However, videotaping signals is CHEATING. Hence the stern letter the league sent out emphasizing that it is, indeed, not ok to do this. Furthermore, the Pats got caught, no one else has. Further, you can't write down signals on paper, synch them to legit game tape, and use that for later game preparation against, say, a division rival that you're playing again in week 15. So no, it's no the same, nor is it really even close. Scribbles on paper vs. edit-ready, archivable media: no comparison.

Of course there's no precedent for any of the other stuff. No team has been as arrogant or as stupid as BB and the Pats organization. What kind of a belligerent moron do you have to be to tape your former protege's defensive signals in his own house? But that's beside the point. No other team has been proven to or even investigated publicly for taping other teams' signals. There's no precedent because no one's been this stupid before.

No, there's no proof YET that the Pats were disrupting or listening in on offensive calls over the radio waves, but they're being investigated for it. So it's more than just rumor. We'll see what happens there. Regardless of what happens with it, the taped signals alone show Belicheck and his crooked organization for what they are: cheaters who don't have enough confidence in themselves to win the right way.

Enjoy the asterisk next to your 3 rings. No one will officially edit the record books, but no one will look at them the same ever again. Even Pats fans like you, I suspect. I agree that this is worse than whatever punishment the NFL decides.

LOL, what a Drama Queen:roll: Hey Nancy, your slip is showing:laugh:

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: paulxcook

Originally posted by: BlinderBomber

Originally posted by: paulxcook
(compelling arguments)

Your argument makes no sense. The tape was taken in the first quarter of the game. It had no impact on the Patriots / Jets game itself. The outcome of that game was NOT affected by this incident. (How could it be if the tape was taken in the first quarter?)

Second, the patriots were found to have been videotaping the Jets sending in defensive signals. That's it. Everything else is just a rumor at this point. The other points people have raised, namely that 'gamesmanship' or whatever, is a big part of football is true to a point. Teams constantly try to get copies of playbooks, understand calls, etc. That's why Reche Caldwell was 'working out' for the Jets last week - they wanted the dirt on the Patriots' playbook. Teams hire all sorts of people to write down signals, observe them with binoculars, etc. The point I'm trying to make is that the Patriots violated league policy and should be punished. NFL fans should wake up to the fact that their violation isn't that much worse than what teams already do. Yes, they got caught. Yes, punish them.

Third, there is no precedent for anything more than losing draft picks. In previous incidents of league infractions, teams have lost a draft pick in the upcoming draft. There is no precedent or reason to issue suspensions or reverse the outcome of games. We're talking events that make videotaping play signals seem pretty mild.

The worst punishment for the Patriots, by far, is the bad press this situation has generated. The league can't do much worse than that.

My point was never that the footage helped the Pats win. Honestly the Pats wouldn't have needed game tape to win against the Jets. It's the Jets. And further, as we all know, the tape was still in the camera when it was confiscated, early in the 1st quarter. It doesn't matter. If you cheat like that during a game, you should forfeit the game. I doubt it will happen, but it's nice to think about. The NCAA has a leg up on the NFL in this because they're not as adversely economically affected when they bring down the hammer on cheaters.

Are you really still going with the "it's not REALLY cheating" schtick? Bringing former players in for a "work out" isn't against the rules. Figuring out signals while on the field is not against the rules, and has of course been a part of football for decades. Per the NFL, doing those things isn't cheating. However, videotaping signals is CHEATING. Hence the stern letter the league sent out emphasizing that it is, indeed, not ok to do this. Furthermore, the Pats got caught, no one else has. Further, you can't write down signals on paper, synch them to legit game tape, and use that for later game preparation against, say, a division rival that you're playing again in week 15. So no, it's no the same, nor is it really even close. Scribbles on paper vs. edit-ready, archivable media: no comparison.

Of course there's no precedent for any of the other stuff. No team has been as arrogant or as stupid as BB and the Pats organization. What kind of a belligerent moron do you have to be to tape your former protege's defensive signals in his own house? But that's beside the point. No other team has been proven to or even investigated publicly for taping other teams' signals. There's no precedent because no one's been this stupid before.

No, there's no proof YET that the Pats were disrupting or listening in on offensive calls over the radio waves, but they're being investigated for it. So it's more than just rumor. We'll see what happens there. Regardless of what happens with it, the taped signals alone show Belicheck and his crooked organization for what they are: cheaters who don't have enough confidence in themselves to win the right way.

Enjoy the asterisk next to your 3 rings. No one will officially edit the record books, but no one will look at them the same ever again. Even Pats fans like you, I suspect. I agree that this is worse than whatever punishment the NFL decides.

It is cheating. I was just pointing out that the rule strikes me as a little strange.

Anyway, there are examples of cheating in the past. We know past players, who have had large impacts on games were using performance enhancing drugs, illegal gloves, etc. We know the Broncos doctored their cap during the superbowl run. Yet, nobody questions any of these incidents of cheating. Nobody says "hey, let's take that superbowl away from the Broncos." They deserved to win, they were the best team, and their cap doctoring helped them marginally, at best. The same can be said about videotaping. The gain was marginal at best.

Nobody can prove what happened in 2001, 2003, or 2004. The evidence was we have is for 2007, in one specific game. If anything, 2001, 2003, and 2004 might point to the fact the Patriots weren't using any taping. The only time a team could effectively use a tape would be at halftime. Looking back over the previous halftime scores of Pats games (particularly the Superbowl games), their 2nd half performance was far worse on both offense AND defense than it was during the first half. That result, of course, is due to a number of factors, but I still don't see how anybody can seriously be clamoring for past game's outcomes to be changed.

If we started looking back at previous superbowl winners, there are all sorts of reasons to start starring them, or marking them with question marks. By your reasoning EVERY superbowl in the past in which one player tested positive for a banned substance should be starred... after all, isn't that cheating? Didn't that potentially have an enormous impact on the game? What happens if we find out that the guy who made the saving tackle for the Rams in 2001 was steroid positive? What happens if the Chargers win the superbowl this year and Merriman has another ridiculous year? Should we star that too because Merriman was caught using a banned substance last season?

Altering games is a slippery slope, with no real end in sight. The Patriots should lose draft picks, maybe Bellichik should serve a brief suspension, but let's not start messing with history, that's just stupid.

What makes this whole situation absolutely crazy is that if the Patriots lose to the Chargers on Sunday, everybody is going to say "see? they can't win without cheating" instead of saying "wow, the Chargers are a really fantastic team."

 

[BUTCH1]

Originally posted by: paulxcook
This would explain how a 7th round draft pick that didn't even start at Michigan could become such a dominant QB. And why he still has to wear his rookie playbook wristband. When you know what's coming, you basically have to be able to hear "run play #4" in your headset, pass credibly and boom, you're a star.

A fair punishment would be loss of the Jets game (sets the precedent that if you cheat during a game, you lose that game), loss of at least both 1st round draft picks (all day 1 picks would be nice, but maybe unrealistic), bigtime suspension of whoever the scapegoat is that's offered up (it probably won't be Belicheck).

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the extra radio equipment that was also found at the game. The Patriots couldn't explain that one. They may have been listening in on the Jet's offensive signals, too.

Link to story

The ESPN.com report also states that the league is reviewing a possible violation into the number of radio frequencies the Patriots were using during Sunday's game and that the team "did not have a satisfactory explanation when asked about possible irregularities in its communication setup." In other words, besides watching and taping the coaches, the Patriots also may have been listening in.

PaulNECheatriotsFan, do you have any proof of the Colts "doing the same thing"? Does King? Do you even have a link to show that King ever said that? Probably not, because like all these other Pats apologists telling us how much of a non-issue this is, you're full of it. You and the Patriots organization deserve each other.

If the Colts did something like this I'd be embarrassed and disappointed in my team, and you can bet the farm, tractor, and state fair prize pig (that's what we talk like here in Hicktown, IN, right?) that Pats fans would be screaming "CHEATERS!!!" at the top of their lungs with everyone else.

Goodell has them by the balls. I hope he has enough balls of his own to squeeze.

HERE IS YOUR PROOF... putting mics on poles to pump up fan noise so
the steelers offense can't hear the QB, thats not cheating?? How about jacking up the temp in the dome to 85 (last years AFC title game)
when you learn half the other team is fighting the flu, that's not cheating?? But wait, crybaby GM Bill Polan is on the competition
committee (wahhh, the Pats DB'S are too rough, lets change the rules) so these incidents get swept under the rug. Not defending what
Belichick was doing, it was wrong and they will pay the price but please, get off your high horse and get a clue..

 

[Pocatello]

One thing I don't understand is, why would any team with so much talents would resort to cheating?

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: Pocatello
One thing I don't understand is, why would any team with so much talents would resort to cheating?

Honestly, part of it is arrogance. Part of it is that teams all over the league push the envelope. Part of it is that Bellichik has an insane desire for information, and anything he thinks will help him is something he eagerly pursues.

(again, I'm not defending the organization or the decisions made, I'm just trying to provide reasons as to why they'd do something as stupid as this)

 

[paulxcook]

Originally posted by: BUTCH1
HERE IS YOUR PROOF... putting mics on poles to pump up fan noise so
the steelers offense can't hear the QB, thats not cheating?? How about jacking up the temp in the dome to 85 (last years AFC title game)
when you learn half the other team is fighting the flu, that's not cheating?? But wait, crybaby GM Bill Polan is on the competition
committee (wahhh, the Pats DB'S are too rough, lets change the rules) so these incidents get swept under the rug. Not defending what
Belichick was doing, it was wrong and they will pay the price but please, get off your high horse and get a clue..

Unfortunately, douchebag, your own article shows nothing was ever proven. If you ever go to the Dome you'll know that piped in noise isn't necessary anyway. It got to white-noise levels last year during the playoffs, based solely on passionate fans and the acoustics. Polian has no secret plan with the NFL for the Colts to be successful. Why would so many of his talent-filled teams fare so poorly in the post-season (up until last year anyway) if he had such a deal?

And this isn't a "other teams cheat so it's ok" topic. It's about the proven cheaters, the New England Cheatriots.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: Pocatello
One thing I don't understand is, why would any team with so much talents would resort to cheating?

B/c every team does it to some extent. Peyton Manning in SI talked about Mike Shanahan(sp?) doing the same thing. The Steelers defensive coach has talked about how they change signals every week b/c the other team is watching them. You hear fans, media and players denouncing what he did but you don't hear any other coaches.

Mangini has an axe to grind with Belichick and wanted to embarrass him.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: paulxcook

Originally posted by: BUTCH1
HERE IS YOUR PROOF... putting mics on poles to pump up fan noise so
the steelers offense can't hear the QB, thats not cheating?? How about jacking up the temp in the dome to 85 (last years AFC title game)
when you learn half the other team is fighting the flu, that's not cheating?? But wait, crybaby GM Bill Polan is on the competition
committee (wahhh, the Pats DB'S are too rough, lets change the rules) so these incidents get swept under the rug. Not defending what
Belichick was doing, it was wrong and they will pay the price but please, get off your high horse and get a clue..

Unfortunately, douchebag, your own article shows nothing was ever proven. If you ever go to the Dome you'll know that piped in noise isn't necessary anyway. It got to white-noise levels last year during the playoffs, based solely on passionate fans and the acoustics. Polian has no secret plan with the NFL for the Colts to be successful. Why would so many of his talent-filled teams fare so poorly in the post-season (up until last year anyway) if he had such a deal?

And this isn't a "other teams cheat so it's ok" topic. It's about the proven cheaters, the New England Cheatriots.

Ah a Colts fan, that explains it.

 

[paulxcook]

Let the pile-on begin!!

Text

Last year the Lions played the Patriots in Foxboro. At one point their coach, Rod Marinelli, phoned up to the press box, "There's a camera pointed right at our defensive coach making his calls. Is that allowed?" A Lions' employee called the NFL booth. No, it certainly was not. So the videotaper was stopped. Then after a while he began again. The same process was repeated and he was asked to stop again. Now that's dedication.

"At one point we had a good drive going against the Patriots," said one Lion who doesn't want his name involved in this mess, but was willing to talk about it. "Mike Martz really had 'em going. They were getting fouled up, lining up wrong, we were moving the ball. Then boom, the headset from the sidelines to the coaches' booth goes out.

"Next possession we were moving the ball again and the same thing happened. You know it only takes two or three plays to mess up a drive."

Matt Millen, the Lions' GM, was talking to Bengals' coach Marvin Lewis at the league meetings. He started telling him the story.

"Yeah, I know," Lewis said. "Headset went out. It happened to me in Foxboro, too."

Edit: yes, Red Dawn, as a Colts fan I'm thrilled to see this POS organization get their feet held to the coals a bit. I'm sure the consequences for NE won't be that bad (realistically I expect some sort of monetary fine and maybe a few non-first round draft picks), so I have to revel in something.

 

[Capt Caveman]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.../01/09/life_of_reilly/

"It's no rumor, pal. "Our guy keeps a pair of binoculars on their signal-callers every game," says Broncos coach Mike Shanahan. "With any luck, we have their defensive signals figured out by halftime. Sometimes, by the end of the first quarter."

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.../01/09/life_of_reilly/

"It's no rumor, pal. "Our guy keeps a pair of binoculars on their signal-callers every game," says Broncos coach Mike Shanahan. "With any luck, we have their defensive signals figured out by halftime. Sometimes, by the end of the first quarter."

This isn't a defense. What the Broncos, and every other team in the NFL does, is legal. They observe, they don't record. Might be a small difference,but according to the rules, it IS a difference. Personally, this knowledge puts what the patriots did in perspective for me. They did something wrong, but it isn't so far out of line with what other teams do.

 

[spidey07]

I bet the patriots were jamming the other teams headsets. It wouldn't be all that hard to do actually. Do it once or twice per game at a crucial moment and that could give you the win.

 

[Tylanner]

The pats are all that is wrong in the NFL

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: BlinderBomber

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.../01/09/life_of_reilly/

"It's no rumor, pal. "Our guy keeps a pair of binoculars on their signal-callers every game," says Broncos coach Mike Shanahan. "With any luck, we have their defensive signals figured out by halftime. Sometimes, by the end of the first quarter."

This isn't a defense. What the Broncos, and every other team in the NFL does, is legal. They observe, they don't record. Might be a small difference,but according to the rules, it IS a difference. Personally, this knowledge puts what the patriots did in perspective for me. They did something wrong, but it isn't so far out of line with what other teams do.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c...heating.nfl/index.html

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: BlinderBomber

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.../01/09/life_of_reilly/

"It's no rumor, pal. "Our guy keeps a pair of binoculars on their signal-callers every game," says Broncos coach Mike Shanahan. "With any luck, we have their defensive signals figured out by halftime. Sometimes, by the end of the first quarter."

This isn't a defense. What the Broncos, and every other team in the NFL does, is legal. They observe, they don't record. Might be a small difference,but according to the rules, it IS a difference. Personally, this knowledge puts what the patriots did in perspective for me. They did something wrong, but it isn't so far out of line with what other teams do.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c...heating.nfl/index.html

I'm just saying that they broke a rule, even if it is a bit convoluted and thus should be punished.

 

[Phokus]

lots of crying over nothing.

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: BlinderBomber

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: BlinderBomber

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.../01/09/life_of_reilly/

"It's no rumor, pal. "Our guy keeps a pair of binoculars on their signal-callers every game," says Broncos coach Mike Shanahan. "With any luck, we have their defensive signals figured out by halftime. Sometimes, by the end of the first quarter."

This isn't a defense. What the Broncos, and every other team in the NFL does, is legal. They observe, they don't record. Might be a small difference,but according to the rules, it IS a difference. Personally, this knowledge puts what the patriots did in perspective for me. They did something wrong, but it isn't so far out of line with what other teams do.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c...heating.nfl/index.html

I'm just saying that they broke a rule, even if it is a bit convoluted and thus should be punished.

Leaving your jersey untucked is against the rules and can get you a punishment as well. Should they be punished? Yeah, but to equate this to steroids and hgh and get all high and mighty is retarded.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: BlinderBomber

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.../01/09/life_of_reilly/

"It's no rumor, pal. "Our guy keeps a pair of binoculars on their signal-callers every game," says Broncos coach Mike Shanahan. "With any luck, we have their defensive signals figured out by halftime. Sometimes, by the end of the first quarter."

This isn't a defense. What the Broncos, and every other team in the NFL does, is legal. They observe, they don't record. Might be a small difference,but according to the rules, it IS a difference. Personally, this knowledge puts what the patriots did in perspective for me. They did something wrong, but it isn't so far out of line with what other teams do.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c...heating.nfl/index.html

Excellent link

 

[BrokenVisage]

News just broke. Pat's lose their 08' first round pick and $750,000 in fines.

 

[mooglemania85]

Originally posted by: BrokenVisage
News just broke. Pat's lose their 08' first round pick and $750,000 in fines.

So, the 32nd pick and $750,000 in fines?
I'm assuming the 49ers pick that they own is not subject to forfeited.

 

[Storm]

Belichick Fined; Pats Lose Pick

Bill Belichick was hit with a $500,000 fine Thursday night -- the maximum allowable by NFL by-laws -- for violating the league's policy on videotaping the Jets defensive signs Sunday. In addition, Roger Goodell notified the Patriots that they would forfeit a 2008 first-round draft choice if they reach the playoffs, or second- and third-round picks if they do not qualify for the playoffs. The club was also fined $250,000.

Edit
Front page espn

 

[The Boston Dangler]

that's it? schweeeeet!