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Pat Buchanon making sense once again

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
For those that disagree with Pat and think that the President is justified in linking Islam (even the specific sects he is directly referring to) with facism....please give a short paragraph into what you believe facism to be.


ISLAMO-FASCISM?


"President Likens Dewey to Hitler as Fascist Tool."

So ran the New York Times headline on Oct. 26, 1948, after what Dewey biographer Richard Norton Smith called a "particularly vitriolic attack in Chicago" by Harry Truman.

What brings this to mind is President Bush's assertion that we are "at war with Islamic fascism" and "Islamo-fascism."

After the transatlantic bomb plot was smashed, Bush said the plotters "try to spread their jihadist message I call -- it's totalitarian in nature, Islamic radicalism -- Islamic fascism; they try to spread it, as well, by taking the attack to those of us who love freedom."

What is wrong with the term Islamo-fascism?

First, there is no consensus as to what "fascism" even means. Orwell said when someone calls Smith a fascist, what he means is, "I hate Smith. " By calling Smith a fascist, you force Smith to deny he's a sympathizer of Hitler and Mussolini.

As a concept, writes Arnold Beichman of Hoover Institution, "fascism ... has no intellectual basis at all nor did its founders even pretend to have any. Hitler's ravings in 'Mein Kampf' ... Mussolini's boastful balcony speeches, all of these can be described, in the words of Roger Scruton, as an 'amalgam of disparate conceptions.'"

Richard Pipes considers Stalinism and Hilterism to be siblings of the same birth mother: "Bolshevism and fascism were heresies of socialism."

Since the 1930s, "fascist" has been a term of hate and abuse used by the Left against the Right, as in the Harry Truman campaign. In 1964, Martin Luther King Jr. claimed to see in the Goldwater campaign "dangerous signs of Hitlerism." Twin the words, "Reagan, fascism" in Google and 1,800,000 references pop up.

Unsurprisingly, it is neoconservatives, whose roots are in the Trotskyist-Social Democratic Left, who are promoting use of the term. Their goal is to have Bush stuff al-Qaida, Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria and Iran into the same "Islamo-fascist" kill box, then let SAC do the rest.

But the term represents the same lazy, shallow thinking that got us into Iraq, where Americans were persuaded that by dumping over Saddam, we were avenging 9-11.

But Saddam was about as devout a practitioner of Islam as his hero Stalin was of the Russian Orthodox faith. Saddam was into booze, mistresses, movies, monuments, palaces and dynasty. Bin Laden loathed him and volunteered to fight him in 1991, if Saudi Arabia would only not bring the Americans in to do the fighting Islamic warriors ought to be doing themselves.

And whatever "Islamo-fascism" means, Syria surely is not it. It is a secular dictatorship Bush I bribed into becoming an ally in the Gulf War. The Muslim Brotherhood is outlawed in Syria. In 1982, Hafez al-Assad perpetrated a massacre of the Brotherhood in the city of Hama that was awesome in its magnitude and horror.

As with Khadafi, whom Bush let out of the penalty box after he agreed to pay $10 million to the family of each victim of Pan Am 103 and give up his nuclear program, America can deal with Syria, as Israel did after the Yom Kippur War -- for an armistice on the Golan that has stuck, as both sides have kept the deal.

America faces a variety of adversaries, enemies and evils. But the Bombs-Away Caucus, as Iraq and Lebanon reveal, does not always have the right formula. Al-Qaida, Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria and Iran all present separate challenges calling forth different responses.

Al-Qaida appears to exist for one purpose: Plot and perpetrate mass murder to terrorize Americans and Europeans into getting out of the Islamic world. Contrary to what Bush believes, the 9-11 killers and London and Madrid bombers were not out to repeal the Bill of Rights, if any ever read it. They are out to kill us, and we have to get them first.

Hamas and Hezbollah have used terrorism, but, like Begin's Irgun and Mandela's ANC, they have social and political agendas that require state power to implement. And once a guerrilla-terrorist movement takes over a state, it acquires state assets and interests that are then vulnerable to U.S. military and economic power.

Why did the Ayatollah let the American hostages go, as Reagan raised his right hand to take the oath of office? Why did Syria not rush to the rescue of Hezbollah? What did Ahmadinejad not rocket Tel Aviv in solidarity with his embattled allies in Lebanon? Res ipse loquitor. The thing speaks for itself. They don't want war with Israel, and they don't want war with the United States.

"Islamo-fascism" should be jettisoned from Bush's vocabulary. It yokes the faith of a billion people with an odious ideology. Imagine how Christians would have reacted, had FDR taken to declaring Franco's Spain and Mussolini's Italy "Christo-fascist."

If Bush does not want a war of civilizations, he will drop these propaganda terms that are designed to inflame passions rather than inform the public of the nature of the war we are in, and the war we are not in.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Fascism is a buzzword. It's quicker to say "islamic fascists" than it is to say "islamic movement that believes women are second-class citizens (at best), does not recognize the rule of law, does not recognize secular government, believes in murder & terror as a political tool, believes their religion is superior and the only religion and all others are apopstates that must convert or be killed, uses propaganda as a political tool, etc."

Fascist is probably the closest single english word we have to what the islamowhackos are up to. Some governments (like Syria) merely use it as a tool for power, others (like Iran) buy into the concept fully.

Pat's an isolationist, which is why the ostrich dems are enamored with him lately.
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
The right-wingers use the word "fascist" to deflect attention to the fact that THEY THEMSELVES are fascists.

Fascist is ABSOLUTELY NOT the closest single english word we have to describe terrorist organizations. Theocrats (theocracy) is the word you're looking for. Fascism is the joining of corporation and government.

Today's Republican cult is much more aligned to fascism than your ordinary terrorist, plain and simple.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
Fascism is a buzzword. It's quicker to say "islamic fascists" than it is to say "islamic movement that believes women are second-class citizens (at best), does not recognize the rule of law, does not recognize secular government, believes in murder & terror as a political tool, believes their religion is superior and the only religion and all others are apopstates that must convert or be killed, uses propaganda as a political tool, etc."
Geeze, for a second there, I thought you were talking about the GOP...
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
The right-wingers use the word "fascist" to deflect attention to the fact that THEY THEMSELVES are fascists.

Fascist is ABSOLUTELY NOT the closest single english word we have to describe terrorist organizations. Theocrats (theocracy) is the word you're looking for. Fascism is the joining of corporation and government.

Today's Republican cult is much more aligned to fascism than your ordinary terrorist, plain and simple.

Fascism is also used to describe conservative tilted authortarian regimes.
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
According to a CNN poll released yesterday, 76% of Americans describe themselves as "angry" about the way things are going in the country, while 54% of those polled said things in the U.S. are going either "pretty badly" or "very badly".

In an unrelated story, Condoleezza Rice told Essence Magazine that critics of the administration's Iraq policy were like "people who thought it was a mistake to fight the Civil War to its end and to insist that the emancipation of slaves would hold". She went on to say that she also felt sure "there were people who thought the Declaration of Independence was a mistake." This comes on the heels of Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld comparing Iraqi war critics to Nazi appeasers.

So let's see -- opposing the war in Iraq means you're a pro-slavery Nazi sympathizer who hates the Declaration of Independence.

Awesome charm offensive, guys. Seriously. That really ought to get those numbers up.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/billy-diamond/fun-with-numbers_b_28800.html

LOL, left or right, who supports these clowns anymore? They are so desperate...
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
The right-wingers use the word "fascist" to deflect attention to the fact that THEY THEMSELVES are fascists.

Fascist is ABSOLUTELY NOT the closest single english word we have to describe terrorist organizations. Theocrats (theocracy) is the word you're looking for. Fascism is the joining of corporation and government.

Today's Republican cult is much more aligned to fascism than your ordinary terrorist, plain and simple.

Theocracy under Sharia is what islamic fascists would like to implement. Theocracy is a type of government, but it doesn't describe a political/religious movement. A theocracy implemented by say Buddhists might not have anything in common with islamists.

"a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition". Sounds pretty accurate to me. Insert sharia and islam into there and it's completely accurate. It's just a different flavor, but it's still fascism. I do like the term "islamic neofascism". That's a good one.

As far as the rest of your post, 2/10 for trolling. Unoriginal and ostrich-like.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
13,782
11,418
136
Pat is a rare bird these days. Registered republican, but not a bat-sh!t crazy neo-con. He's an old school republican which can actually be respected.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: Pens1566
Pat is a rare bird these days. Registered republican, but not a bat-sh!t crazy neo-con. He's an old school republican which can actually be respected.

He's always been an isolationist, nationalist, strongly morally/religiously conservative, and somewhat of a racist. Go look up his record on positions, he's waaay far right. If you respect his far right opinions, I guess that's your problem.

All the lefties want to give him a massage because of his complete isolationist outlook he is opposed to the war in Iraq. But he makes most republicans look downright liberal!
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
Originally posted by: alchemize
But he makes most republicans look downright liberal!

Except he can do something most republicans cannot, he can go on TV and make a point. He doesn't babble off the daily talking points, he argues his points of view and does it well.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Todd33
Originally posted by: alchemize
But he makes most republicans look downright liberal!

Except he can do something most republicans cannot, he can go on TV and make a point. He doesn't babble off the daily talking points, he argues his points of view and does it well.

Indeed, I found his views of immigration in Europe and the impending Islamic nation states there fascinating.

I am sure you are more than willing to jump on that bandwagon as well right? :D

 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Todd33
Originally posted by: alchemize
But he makes most republicans look downright liberal!

Except he can do something most republicans cannot, he can go on TV and make a point. He doesn't babble off the daily talking points, he argues his points of view and does it well.

Indeed, I found his views of immigration in Europe and the impending Islamic nation states there fascinating.

I am sure you are more than willing to jump on that bandwagon as well right? :D

Well, what really matters is he delivers his message well. That's what Todd33 truly respects. Hitler was a helluva public speaker too...
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
For the moment, let's discard that the word fascist has become so overused that it's almost lost all meaning. Fascism: "A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism."

Given that definition, Al-Qaeda and Iran do qualify as supporters of fascism to me. A longtime goal of Al-Qaeda is to overthrow the regime in Saudi Arabia - not exactly a dislikable goal, but one can pretty safely assume that the regime they'd put up in its place is not likely to hold elections in the near future. And Iran already approaches fascism, as far as they can without taking North Korea-like steps to wholly isolate themselves.

President Bush et al. is probably doing himself and moderate Muslims a disservice by saying "Islamo-fascism", but there's a dearth of simple, quick ways to express the idea that we all know he means.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Todd33
Originally posted by: alchemize
But he makes most republicans look downright liberal!

Except he can do something most republicans cannot, he can go on TV and make a point. He doesn't babble off the daily talking points, he argues his points of view and does it well.

Indeed, I found his views of immigration in Europe and the impending Islamic nation states there fascinating.

I am sure you are more than willing to jump on that bandwagon as well right? :D

Well, what really matters is he delivers his message well. That's what Todd33 truly respects. Hitler was a helluva public speaker too...

Apparently it works for both ends of the spectrum as far as the ability to speak.

Bush speaks worse than a third grader yet Republicans respect him.
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Todd33
Originally posted by: alchemize
But he makes most republicans look downright liberal!

Except he can do something most republicans cannot, he can go on TV and make a point. He doesn't babble off the daily talking points, he argues his points of view and does it well.

Indeed, I found his views of immigration in Europe and the impending Islamic nation states there fascinating.

I am sure you are more than willing to jump on that bandwagon as well right? :D

Well, what really matters is he delivers his message well. That's what Todd33 truly respects. Hitler was a helluva public speaker too...

Wow, you guys missed my point, but no surprise. I respect people who can back their opinion up with historical data, logic, facts, etc. Pat can do that, though I don't agree with a lot of his opinions, at least he can convey them. But of course you guys jump on the current GOP strategy, throw Hitler into every conversation. At least you people are consistent.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
1,594
126
"Pat Buchanon making sense once again"

Your wrong, you imply Pat Buchanon has made sense at least once before.
 

mzkhadir

Diamond Member
Mar 6, 2003
9,509
1
76
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: alchemize
Fascism is a buzzword. It's quicker to say "islamic fascists" than it is to say "islamic movement that believes women are second-class citizens (at best), does not recognize the rule of law, does not recognize secular government, believes in murder & terror as a political tool, believes their religion is superior and the only religion and all others are apopstates that must convert or be killed, uses propaganda as a political tool, etc."
Geeze, for a second there, I thought you were talking about the GOP...

 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: Todd33
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Todd33
Originally posted by: alchemize
But he makes most republicans look downright liberal!

Except he can do something most republicans cannot, he can go on TV and make a point. He doesn't babble off the daily talking points, he argues his points of view and does it well.

Indeed, I found his views of immigration in Europe and the impending Islamic nation states there fascinating.

I am sure you are more than willing to jump on that bandwagon as well right? :D

Well, what really matters is he delivers his message well. That's what Todd33 truly respects. Hitler was a helluva public speaker too...

Wow, you guys missed my point, but no surprise. I respect people who can back their opinion up with historical data, logic, facts, etc. Pat can do that, though I don't agree with a lot of his opinions, at least he can convey them. But of course you guys jump on the current GOP strategy, throw Hitler into every conversation. At least you people are consistent.

This is a thread about fascism, isn't it? Where else can you mention Hitler if not in a fascism thread? Or do leftists have a monopoly on bringing up hitler? It seems they were all good with Durbin and Moveon.org comparing Bush to hitler, but now the Bush admin brings up Fascism and Islam and OH THE NOES!!! Hyprocrits one and all...

Just curious, outside of the Iraq war, name one other political opinion that Pat has you agree with. Just one please :)
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
The right-wingers use the word "fascist" to deflect attention to the fact that THEY THEMSELVES are fascists.

Fascist is ABSOLUTELY NOT the closest single english word we have to describe terrorist organizations. Theocrats (theocracy) is the word you're looking for. Fascism is the joining of corporation and government.

Today's Republican cult is much more aligned to fascism than your ordinary terrorist, plain and simple.

me thinks you are not correct.....if truly think about what you just said
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
13,782
11,418
136
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Pens1566
Pat is a rare bird these days. Registered republican, but not a bat-sh!t crazy neo-con. He's an old school republican which can actually be respected.

He's always been an isolationist, nationalist, strongly morally/religiously conservative, and somewhat of a racist. Go look up his record on positions, he's waaay far right. If you respect his far right opinions, I guess that's your problem.

All the lefties want to give him a massage because of his complete isolationist outlook he is opposed to the war in Iraq. But he makes most republicans look downright liberal!

I respect real republicans. Not the neo-con garbage we've been given lately. But thanks for putting words in my mouth. :cookie:
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: Pens1566
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Pens1566
Pat is a rare bird these days. Registered republican, but not a bat-sh!t crazy neo-con. He's an old school republican which can actually be respected.

He's always been an isolationist, nationalist, strongly morally/religiously conservative, and somewhat of a racist. Go look up his record on positions, he's waaay far right. If you respect his far right opinions, I guess that's your problem.

All the lefties want to give him a massage because of his complete isolationist outlook he is opposed to the war in Iraq. But he makes most republicans look downright liberal!

I respect real republicans. Not the neo-con garbage we've been given lately. But thanks for putting words in my mouth. :cookie:

So you are OK with his positions on abortion, immigration, gun control, school prayer, intelligent design, women's rights, civil rights, gay rights, and intelligent design/evolution?

Should we trot out a few quotes and see if you agree with them?

:roll:

You lefties are a piece of work. Then enemy of my enemy is my friend...no wonder why the not-so-subtle fascination prevalent through the years with communism, and now islamic fascism.
 

Drift3r

Guest
Jun 3, 2003
3,572
0
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Todd33
Originally posted by: alchemize
But he makes most republicans look downright liberal!

Except he can do something most republicans cannot, he can go on TV and make a point. He doesn't babble off the daily talking points, he argues his points of view and does it well.

Indeed, I found his views of immigration in Europe and the impending Islamic nation states there fascinating.

I am sure you are more than willing to jump on that bandwagon as well right? :D

Well, what really matters is he delivers his message well. That's what Todd33 truly respects. Hitler was a helluva public speaker too...


So you are implying that Pat.B is akin to Hitler. Wow you just proved Pat's point.
 

Drift3r

Guest
Jun 3, 2003
3,572
0
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Pens1566
Pat is a rare bird these days. Registered republican, but not a bat-sh!t crazy neo-con. He's an old school republican which can actually be respected.

He's always been an isolationist, nationalist, strongly morally/religiously conservative, and somewhat of a racist. Go look up his record on positions, he's waaay far right. If you respect his far right opinions, I guess that's your problem.

All the lefties want to give him a massage because of his complete isolationist outlook he is opposed to the war in Iraq. But he makes most republicans look downright liberal!



Isolationist - As in putting America first above other nations.

Nationalist - As in putting America first above other nations.

strongly morally/religiously conservative - Yes he is a die hard Catholic but he is much more reasonable then your average evangelical that worships and prays for the end of the world.

Racist - Only to those with an ultra-PC agenda or who are out-right first and foremost lobbiests of foriegn countries and their agendas above putting America first.