First we need to decide, do women have a right to have an abortion? The answer now is yes. That being the law of the land, the doctor and the woman should be able to decide what's the safest way to exercise that right, not Congress sticking itself in the woman's vagina and telling the doctor and the woman how to conduct abortions. What congress is saying now is that instead of partially extracting the fetus and then sucking it's brains out, the doctors need to go into the uterus with an instrument, destroy the fetus completely inside the womb, and then extract the remains. To me, it seems far less intrusive and safer to destroy the partially extracted fetus than to go in-utero and do it there. So the fundamentalists, unable to convince the US people to ban abortion, have succeded in making it less safe for women to have that legal procedure. So basically women who have decided to have an abortion will have to have a higher risk procedure because the congress has banned a safer procedure.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
- 14,337
- 136
LOL... Moonie's "real" world, where even people who destroy themselves and others are victims.
I am very much Pro-Choice, but I applaud this legislation. If a woman wants an abortion and truly doesn't want the child, then she should get the abortion in the 1st trimester. After that, too late, she should put up with the pregnancy and put the child up for adoption if she doesn't want it. I consider that more than fair.
it would be even less intrusive to pull the fetus all the way out then kill it. of course in the case of being unable to do this because of medical complications a c-section would be done to remove and kill the offending "tissue"
Corn
Diamond Member
- Nov 12, 1999
- 6,389
- 29
- 91
Well my opinion is that women should be able to kill infants up until one year of age if they decide they just can't, or no longer want to take care of. It's a form of slavery to shackle these women to these children. Besides, these infants would be better off dead in this situation anyway, I mean, they'll just end up jumping from one foster home to another and will end up dying at 12 because of a lung infection anyway. It's the humane thing to do.
- Jun 30, 2001
- 12,572
- 0
- 0
Originally posted by: Insane3D
Originally posted by: XZeroII
Originally posted by: Insane3D
Originally posted by: daniel1113
My sister is adopted from S. Korea...
That's great. How about the kids from the US? Were there not enough over here? The fact remains that is we abolish all abortion, the number of orphans will skyrocket. Who is going to take them all? You?
Why don't people just act responsible? You act like having sex is a necessity and everyone needs to do it. The reason why it's best to not have sex until you're married is so we can prevent crap like this.
I find it disturbing that you condone murder simply because of your own greed for sex.
I figured I would get such a nonsense reply from you. You love to over simplify the problem and look at it from you're own point of view. Simply not having sex is not the solution to everything, and you know it. Ever hear of birth control? We have patches , pills, comdoms and such to avoid that. Not to mention that a good deal of abortions are not simply a matter of reckless sex. What about a woman getting raped? What about abortions that are done for valid medical reasons. You don't care about those though, you want to portray all abortion as a bunch of sluts not being responsible and trotting down to the local clinic everytime they "slip up". What about if you never plan to get married? Should you never have sex too? What if you want to raise a child with someone, but not be married? I love how you think everything would be grand if everyone just was abstinent until your married and had your 2.5 kids and your minivan. Why don't you get out a little more.
Now, I love the last part how you try to slip words into my mouth. First off, maybe I don't consider it murder, but a valid medical procedure. See, there is your problem right there. You tell me I condone "murder" when you don't know my view on things. You are applying your personal feelings on abortion to my statement.
You make it sound like this procedure is so common and reckless women everywhere are just lining up to have this wonderful procedure done. I bet they wait till it's really late in the term so they can have this procedure too....cause it's waaaay more fun than the normal abortion.
As always, the abortion debate gets nowhere because people are never willing to listen to opposing opinions.
LOL. It's the solution to this problem. Or do you think that babies just magically happen when people kiss?
Read the fricking article, nimrod. I even put the quote on my original post (I added it later). "The legislation would ban partial-birth abortions, except when necessary to save the life of the mother". Where do you get that I think that the mother should die in order to give birth? Where do I say that a women who is raped should be forced to carry the baby? And you complain about me putting words in your mouth...
Hop on the bandwagon, hu?
Your 'views' are irrelevant. just because you have a different 'view' doesn't mean that it's not murder. Killing is killing no matter how you slice it or what your 'views' are.
Yes, I seemed to imply that
It was a simple topic and you turned it into a flamefest for your own enjoyment. You are a true sicko.
Originally posted by: XZeroII
Originally posted by: Insane3D
Originally posted by: XZeroII
Originally posted by: Insane3D
Originally posted by: daniel1113
My sister is adopted from S. Korea...
That's great. How about the kids from the US? Were there not enough over here? The fact remains that is we abolish all abortion, the number of orphans will skyrocket. Who is going to take them all? You?
Why don't people just act responsible? You act like having sex is a necessity and everyone needs to do it. The reason why it's best to not have sex until you're married is so we can prevent crap like this.
I find it disturbing that you condone murder simply because of your own greed for sex.
I figured I would get such a nonsense reply from you. You love to over simplify the problem and look at it from you're own point of view. Simply not having sex is not the solution to everything, and you know it. Ever hear of birth control? We have patches , pills, comdoms and such to avoid that. Not to mention that a good deal of abortions are not simply a matter of reckless sex. What about a woman getting raped? What about abortions that are done for valid medical reasons. You don't care about those though, you want to portray all abortion as a bunch of sluts not being responsible and trotting down to the local clinic everytime they "slip up". What about if you never plan to get married? Should you never have sex too? What if you want to raise a child with someone, but not be married? I love how you think everything would be grand if everyone just was abstinent until your married and had your 2.5 kids and your minivan. Why don't you get out a little more.
Now, I love the last part how you try to slip words into my mouth. First off, maybe I don't consider it murder, but a valid medical procedure. See, there is your problem right there. You tell me I condone "murder" when you don't know my view on things. You are applying your personal feelings on abortion to my statement.
You make it sound like this procedure is so common and reckless women everywhere are just lining up to have this wonderful procedure done. I bet they wait till it's really late in the term so they can have this procedure too....cause it's waaaay more fun than the normal abortion.
As always, the abortion debate gets nowhere because people are never willing to listen to opposing opinions.
LOL. It's the solution to this problem. Or do you think that babies just magically happen when people kiss?
Read the fricking article, nimrod. I even put the quote on my original post (I added it later). "The legislation would ban partial-birth abortions, except when necessary to save the life of the mother". Where do you get that I think that the mother should die in order to give birth? Where do I say that a women who is raped should be forced to carry the baby? And you complain about me putting words in your mouth...
Hop on the bandwagon, hu?
Your 'views' are irrelevant. just because you have a different 'view' doesn't mean that it's not murder. Killing is killing no matter how you slice it or what your 'views' are.
Yes, I seemed to imply that
It was a simple topic and you turned it into a flamefest for your own enjoyment. You are a true sicko.
Classic response....thanks. Just what I expected. Sorry I disrupted your rah rah thread...
- Jun 30, 2001
- 12,572
- 0
- 0
Originally posted by: Insane3D
Originally posted by: XZeroII
Originally posted by: Insane3D
Originally posted by: XZeroII
Originally posted by: Insane3D
Originally posted by: daniel1113
My sister is adopted from S. Korea...
That's great. How about the kids from the US? Were there not enough over here? The fact remains that is we abolish all abortion, the number of orphans will skyrocket. Who is going to take them all? You?
Why don't people just act responsible? You act like having sex is a necessity and everyone needs to do it. The reason why it's best to not have sex until you're married is so we can prevent crap like this.
I find it disturbing that you condone murder simply because of your own greed for sex.
I figured I would get such a nonsense reply from you. You love to over simplify the problem and look at it from you're own point of view. Simply not having sex is not the solution to everything, and you know it. Ever hear of birth control? We have patches , pills, comdoms and such to avoid that. Not to mention that a good deal of abortions are not simply a matter of reckless sex. What about a woman getting raped? What about abortions that are done for valid medical reasons. You don't care about those though, you want to portray all abortion as a bunch of sluts not being responsible and trotting down to the local clinic everytime they "slip up". What about if you never plan to get married? Should you never have sex too? What if you want to raise a child with someone, but not be married? I love how you think everything would be grand if everyone just was abstinent until your married and had your 2.5 kids and your minivan. Why don't you get out a little more.
Now, I love the last part how you try to slip words into my mouth. First off, maybe I don't consider it murder, but a valid medical procedure. See, there is your problem right there. You tell me I condone "murder" when you don't know my view on things. You are applying your personal feelings on abortion to my statement.
You make it sound like this procedure is so common and reckless women everywhere are just lining up to have this wonderful procedure done. I bet they wait till it's really late in the term so they can have this procedure too....cause it's waaaay more fun than the normal abortion.
As always, the abortion debate gets nowhere because people are never willing to listen to opposing opinions.
LOL. It's the solution to this problem. Or do you think that babies just magically happen when people kiss?
Read the fricking article, nimrod. I even put the quote on my original post (I added it later). "The legislation would ban partial-birth abortions, except when necessary to save the life of the mother". Where do you get that I think that the mother should die in order to give birth? Where do I say that a women who is raped should be forced to carry the baby? And you complain about me putting words in your mouth...
Hop on the bandwagon, hu?
Your 'views' are irrelevant. just because you have a different 'view' doesn't mean that it's not murder. Killing is killing no matter how you slice it or what your 'views' are.
Yes, I seemed to imply that
It was a simple topic and you turned it into a flamefest for your own enjoyment. You are a true sicko.
Classic response....thanks. Just what I expected. Sorry I disrupted your rah rah thread...
I'm glad you realize how foolish your post was. I accept your appology.
And you are surprised that an abortion thread became a flame fest? You didn't actually think we could have a rational discussion with monsters like me advocating murder in here ruining it all did you?
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
- 14,337
- 136
Speak for yourself, Moonie
IMO, having your own opinion does not make you a monster. I am curious as to how you can support abortion for (in an admittedly extreme case) a eight-and-a-half month old pregnancy...
If a woman chooses to wait until near the end of her pregnancy to have an abortion (as opposed to doing it early, when it is at least moderately understandable), she can wait a little longer, have the baby, and then give it up if she chooses to do so.
Personal responsibility, we cannot escape it except through death. It is only by trying to escape our birthright of personal responsibility, and attempting to establish culture based on that escape, that we become "born dead."
agreed! why limit it age 1 though? they dont get really bad until the "terrible 2's" and often stay annoying until much later, lets put the age limit on post birth abortions at say...65(around then it is only a matter of time anyway), and make post birth abortion mandatory after 65 or earlier if they can no longer be productive for the state.
Corn
Diamond Member
- Nov 12, 1999
- 6,389
- 29
- 91
OMG you're right! Especially about that mandatory post birth abortion after 65 part. Really, after you reach 65 what kind of life is someone going to have anyway? Chances are they'll just jump from one nursing home to the other, living meager, sickly lives, and will probably die within 12 years of a lung infection. It's a form of slavery to have to support and pay for these old folks.
I remember when my Grandmother came to live with us after my Grandfather passed away. She had alsheimers(spelling?). Basically my parents were slaves. Having to take care of her, feed her, entertain her......such a burden and a waste of time. They should have just put a bullet in her head and lightened their load. It's all about quality of life, isn't it? Not so much the abortee's, but those who benefit from being rid of that burden. That's who really matter.
Corn
Diamond Member
- Nov 12, 1999
- 6,389
- 29
- 91
Strange, but I wonder why those who use the whole "what kind of life is an unwanted kid going to have anyway" argument for abortion don't advocate mercy killing those overgrown feti who have to live that nightmare existance every day? If it's so terrible, put that homeless kid out of his misery, he's better off dead, right?
Or are they only better off dead *before* that undetermined fate has come to pass?
Yep, just put a cap in that brat, he's better off.
Or are they only better off dead *before* that undetermined fate has come to pass?
Yep, just put a cap in that brat, he's better off.
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
Here here. Don't forget about retards at any age, any crimminals since jails are a burden on us, and homeless at any age since they make my kids scared and stink up the place. All should be removed as to not burden the those productive with a responsibity. Productives have thier whole life to live why forceabley handicap them with this?
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=9106
http://www.family.org/docstudy/excerpts/A0014312.html
My bad it was 1500 not 5000, I read this a long time ago so I got the number wrong
You have to love GOOGLE:
http://www.njrtl.org/partialbirthabortion.php
http://www.family.org/docstudy/excerpts/A0014312.html
My bad it was 1500 not 5000, I read this a long time ago so I got the number wrong
You have to love GOOGLE:
http://www.njrtl.org/partialbirthabortion.php
mastertech01
Moderator Emeritus Elite Member
- Nov 13, 1999
- 11,875
- 282
- 126
Unfortunately it really isnt a matter of freedom of choice by the pregnant woman in MANY MANY cases. Its often a choice she is forced into by fear and intimidation. How many abortions may occur as a result of threats by the father of the child? Family threatening rejection and being tossed out on the street. Friends, school mates, and community rejecting her because of her condition. Will her family disown her? Will anyone be there to support the child? How about the married couple who are financially strained already? How about the couple shacking and all was great till she became pregnant and now lover boy wants nothing to do with her? How about the man who is maniacal and threatens to kill her if she doesnt get an abortion? On and on thousands of examples are out there.
We hear so many here say that the persons life will be ruined. If our mothers and fathers felt the same way many of us would not be here to discuss this today. We talk about the radical Christians who want to force their beliefs on us and make abortions on demand illegal, but yet we turn the other cheek to women who by freedom of choice in the afore mentioned circumstances are forced to get thier abortions or OTHERS will ruin thier lives, including the religious!. They say NOTHING about the punishment that women take when they are deciding whether to keep thier children by people who act on their beliefs that pregnancy out of wedlock is evil and a great embarassment to the family and abortion is the way to go. Pressure from peers can be tremendous to someone in this time of weakness. Lets protect womens rights at all costs and under all circumstances because that is more important than personal responsibility for your actions and the rights of the unborn. Is that what we really want?
In reality the argument for pro choice is diluted tremendously by real true facts of life. Abortion favors the man in this situation. Its his out, and it brings all the weight down on the woman. If you ignore those and do nothing to counter act the will of men to force thier will upon those women you are living a lie. If we dont stop selling sex to our youth as a great way of life rather than teach them ethical responsibility, if we just give them the easy out by abortion and ignore the truth of Pro choice this nation will continue to battle this question for eons.
There are justifyable reasons to allow limited abortions, but this free for all has to stop. Birth control has been avaliable for over 50 years. USE IT or accept your responsibility to life and mankind, and stop being self centered. IMHO
We hear so many here say that the persons life will be ruined. If our mothers and fathers felt the same way many of us would not be here to discuss this today. We talk about the radical Christians who want to force their beliefs on us and make abortions on demand illegal, but yet we turn the other cheek to women who by freedom of choice in the afore mentioned circumstances are forced to get thier abortions or OTHERS will ruin thier lives, including the religious!. They say NOTHING about the punishment that women take when they are deciding whether to keep thier children by people who act on their beliefs that pregnancy out of wedlock is evil and a great embarassment to the family and abortion is the way to go. Pressure from peers can be tremendous to someone in this time of weakness. Lets protect womens rights at all costs and under all circumstances because that is more important than personal responsibility for your actions and the rights of the unborn. Is that what we really want?
In reality the argument for pro choice is diluted tremendously by real true facts of life. Abortion favors the man in this situation. Its his out, and it brings all the weight down on the woman. If you ignore those and do nothing to counter act the will of men to force thier will upon those women you are living a lie. If we dont stop selling sex to our youth as a great way of life rather than teach them ethical responsibility, if we just give them the easy out by abortion and ignore the truth of Pro choice this nation will continue to battle this question for eons.
There are justifyable reasons to allow limited abortions, but this free for all has to stop. Birth control has been avaliable for over 50 years. USE IT or accept your responsibility to life and mankind, and stop being self centered. IMHO
true that! the slavery they underwent is much like the slavery of raising a child. who wants responsibility? that is unromantic pragmatism. there are better things to think about, such as water skiing...or computer parts. if i did not have to spend so much money providing for my son and daughter, i could have more money to spend and get a new computer!
perhaps i could get an insurance policy on them and do a couple of post birth abortions and further my way on the road of materialistic bliss...hmm...my son seemed a bit sad the other day, perhaps his quality of life has dropped to terminal levels on the state happiness meter? i am sure the judge would agree! if not we can elect/have appointed ones that would.
Hey corn I know what you went through, my grandfather died of alzheimer's when I was 18. Everynight I had to drive to my grandmothers house to help her put a diaper on him because she could not longer hold him up by herself. I was 17 when it started and for a whole year I did that everyday. The doctors told us to commit him to a nursing home but we could not do that.
You make some very good points. While I don't agree with all of what you said, I agree with you that there needs to be more personal responsibility. I'll try to make my position a bit clearer and then I will leave this thread.
First off, in regards to PBA. I think this procedure should at the very least be something that is done when absolutely needed medically, and restrictions should be put in place so this procedure is not abused and used simply as an elective service. While there is still many arguments about whether a child is actually alive and a person at various stages of a pregnancy, there is absolutely no doubt that in the case of PBA, they are alive. My concern is that a flat out ban on this could compromise medical care for some women. I still find it hard to believe this procedure is done simply for elective reasons as opposed to a last resort for a medical problem. While it does offer an exception when the mother's life is in danger, which is good, I wonder about circumstances that might arise where the mother needs this procedure to avoid serious, long term health problems, but she might not "die", so it would be illegal. Let me give a hypothetical example of what I mean. Let's say a woman's pregnancy has gone seriously wrong for whatever reason, and without this procedure, not only would the baby not live, the woman would have serous health problems as a result, and maybe not be able to have children ever again if the child is simply delivered normally. Just because her life is technically not in danger, she would not be able to legally have the procedure. That being said, I think there should be a full ban on this procedure for any other reason than a medical necessity. There should be no way that someone could have this done simply as an elective procedure to end a pregnancy...period.
Now, as far as other abortions, the issue get's muddier. I think what is needed in regards to this issue, is a middle ground of some sort. I don't think there is any excuse for using abortion as a form of birth control, and I think there should be some sort of restriction on the procedure to avoid it being abused as such. However, I think that any place that offers abortions should be required to explain all options to the potential patient, and make them aware of the other options they have, such as adoption, before they can have the procedure done. I also think there should be more effort placed on educating people on the alternatives to abortion, including birth control, family planning, etc. This issue will always be a sticky one but I have to believe both sides can reach some sort of "middle ground".
While I don't agree with a lot of the pro-life argument, I can understand their point of view, and fully respect it. I think that until both sides of this issue can somehow resolve some of their differences on this thorny issue if they just listen to each other and try to work towards a solution instead of just deciding they are right, and the other side is wrong and that's that. I don't expect any pro-lifers to agree with me, but I would at least ask that you respect my POV on this. I'll leave this thread now to try to avoid any more flame wars.
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