Partial Birth Abortion Ban almost ready to be signed!

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: daclayman
Just wait, it gets better; the adoption argument comes up next. Even though these people, that are so much against abortion that they don't mind the murder of an abortion doctor, would never adopt an off-race child. Just ask yourselves - Who Wants Jelly Donuts?

My sister is adopted from S. Korea...

 

[Insane3D]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: daclayman
Just wait, it gets better; the adoption argument comes up next. Even though these people, that are so much against abortion that they don't mind the murder of an abortion doctor, would never adopt an off-race child. Just ask yourselves - Who Wants Jelly Donuts?

My sister is adopted from S. Korea...

That's great. How about the kids from the US? Were there not enough over here? The fact remains that is we abolish all abortion, the number of orphans will skyrocket. Who is going to take them all? You?

 

[mastertech01]

With ultrasound, and all the other medical technology out there to forecast the size and position of the child at birth, I cant see why giving birth would harm a woman more than this procedure. What happened to C-section? I think the good doctors are more interested in fetal tissue for research than for protecting the life of the mother. Its obviously big business to have an abortion clinic. I support early term abortion if it truly presents a hazard to the mothers life to give birth. But in many cases the abortion is just as risky. One example would be the risk of bacterial endocarditis in a woman who was born with heart defects. Her having the abortion would be just as risky for this and many abortion clinics would not even touch her due to this condition. Hell these women have a hard time even getting dental work done.

Mother one day however may suffer grievous bouts with guilt and mental anguish.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Bush +1

-1441


Bow,

Expect better from you. You know damn well the christian fundies differentiate guilty parties from innocent unborn and already born as thier justification. And people like RCs and many other religious sects and normal everyday people believe all murder is morally reprehensible period.

The moral relativism of "pro choice" is assounding to me. "Don't like abortion, don't have one," Well hows that any different than saying "Don't like the holocaust, don't kill a Jew?" If one believes, as pro-lifers do, that all the unborn are fully innocent human (persons), I'm perplexed when "pro-choice" advocates try and ease thier outrage by telling them that you didn't have to participate in the murders if you didn't want to. The "pro-choice" camp should at put some effort into understanding this. It's a non-comprimisable issue, it's morally reprehensible to them, accept this fact and don't mock their beliefs or question their what you believe to be a double-standard. It's not.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I ask you the same question: did you actually read what I said?

I think abortion is an ugly, unhappy business. I think I don't have the right to impose my beliefs between a woman and her doctor. I think politicians have no business overriding the medical judgment of qualified healthcare professionals. I think the anti-abortion zealots need to recognize that their opinions are merely opinions, no matter how earnestly they believe they are right. I think the anti-abortion zealots need to acknowledge just how hypocritical and un-Christian they are unless they show just as much passion -- backed with their wallets -- for the well-being of the already-born.

I think discussions about abortion are pointless since both sides are so polarized there is no chance of meaningful dialog.

I highlighted a few parts that I think people keep missing. Of course the sentence that really inflames some people is the one where I use the words "hypocritical" and "un-Christian". I believe it's because they focus on those two words and don't read the whole thing. Note that I tried to steer Shad0hawk to read that sentence more closely, but he seems too immersed in preconceptions to parse it objectively.

Perhaps you are also struggling with this sentence, let me rephrase it slightly:

I think anti-abortion zealots who do not show equal passion for the well-being of the already-born are hypocritcal and un-Christian.

I have no problem with people who passionately belive all life is precious. God bless them. (I don't think they have the right to force their anti-abortion beliefs on others, but I acknowledge the sincerity of those beliefs.) I have a problem with those people who are militant about the lives of the unborn while showing only contempt for already-born people who need help. In my opinion, they are hypocrites. In my opinion, their actions are completely contrary to Christ's teachings about love and charity and compassion.

You point out that many anti-abortion people are not Christians. Absolutely true. Perhaps I should have explicitly added "anti-abortion zealots who justify their beliefs by calling on Christ ..." However, I am already too wordy and I assumed this was implied by "un-Christian".

Re. "moral relativism", I agree that this is the crux of the issue. If society stipulates murder is wrong, and if abortion is murder, then abortion is obviously murder and society has a right to forbid it. Two problems with this. First, "abortion == murder" is a matter of opinion. No matter how sincerely some people believe it is true, there are similarly large numbers of people who just as fervently believe it is different from murder. There is no unquestioned standard we can apply.

Second, the sad fact is that banning abortions will just push them underground again. Much like prohibition, the war on drugs, and the 55 mph speed limit, when government tries to legislate against the wishes of a broad slice of the population, those laws will be ignored. Spometimes government needs to take that stand anyway, but we shouldn't fool ourselves about the consequences.

Finally, I will not buy into the "pro-life, not anti-abortion" sophism. While "pro-life" has great PR value, it is an inaccurate label for the most vocal anti-abortion zealots. They are not promoting a broad, life-affirming agenda that happens to include an objection to abortion. They are single-issue zealots whose only concern is banning abortion. These people should be proud to stand by their "anti-abortion" stand instead of hiding behind a lie. Conversely, "pro-choice" is a more accurate label than "pro-abortion". I am NOT in favor of abortion, not by a long shot. Few people actually like abortion. We are in favor of a woman's right to make her own choices.

 

[chess9]

One of the few good deeds by the Republicans. Abortion is a moral outrage and partial birth abortion is the worst of the killing.
-Robert

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: Insane3D

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: daclayman
Just wait, it gets better; the adoption argument comes up next. Even though these people, that are so much against abortion that they don't mind the murder of an abortion doctor, would never adopt an off-race child. Just ask yourselves - Who Wants Jelly Donuts?

My sister is adopted from S. Korea...

That's great. How about the kids from the US? Were there not enough over here? The fact remains that is we abolish all abortion, the number of orphans will skyrocket. Who is going to take them all? You?

I would if I could bro. However, being 18, I think 20 million kids is a bit much for me. My family did what we could to save a life, and I would like to do the same when I am older. Now, what have YOU done to solve the problem?

If we just kill everyone that is handicapped, that will save the U.S. millions and we won't have to worry about caring for such people. But, does that make it right? I don't think so.

 

[Zebo]

Sorry to disappoint you, but I ask you the same question: did you actually read what I said?

I must apologise, I was refering to this statement way at the beginning of the thread and ignored the rest of the thread:

"They are so passionate about the lives of the unborn, yet they don't give a damn about the lives of the born. Ironic, huh? "

Which is when I said: "the christian fundies differentiate guilty parties from innocent unborn and already born as thier justification. And people like RCs and many other religious sects and normal everyday people believe all murder is morally reprehensible period."

I assumed you meant ANYONE who adopts a pro-life stance when you said "they" and was defending it. Sure fundies don't seem to care about death row inmates, love long jail terms, orphans, homeless etc etc etc.. But to them these people are not so innocent. A 'unborn child' is.

I have no problem with people who passionately belive all life is precious. God bless them. (I don't think they have the right to force their anti-abortion beliefs on others, but I acknowledge the sincerity of those beliefs.)

I disagree. Something so morally reprehensible to a person they do have this right, which is the part the pro-choice side never wants to acknowledge. There are people who genuinely feel all life is precious and unborn children of anyone is a life not to be murdered period. It's a nonnegotiable for them like Slavery and holocaust would be to you and me.

I have a problem with those people who are militant about the lives of the unborn while showing only contempt for already-born people who need help. In my opinion, they are hypocrites. In my opinion, their actions are completely contrary to Christ's teachings about love and charity and compassion.

Exactly

Re. "moral relativism", I agree that this is the crux of the issue. If society stipulates murder is wrong, and if abortion is murder, then abortion is obviously murder and society has a right to forbid it. Two problems with this. First, "abortion == murder" is a matter of opinion. No matter how sincerely some people believe it is true, there are similarly large numbers of people who just as fervently believe it is different from murder. There is no unquestioned standard we can apply

However thier "matter of opinion" is'nt to them only to the pro choice crowd, it's an undeniable truth the day of conception another person is alive. How do you fight that? You can't all you can do is understand that viewpoint and disagree. It is still not going to deter them in thier unwavering pusiut to stop the murders.

hile "pro-life" has great PR value, it is an inaccurate label for the most vocal anti-abortion zealots. They are not promoting a broad, life-affirming agenda that happens to include an objection to abortion.

Many are

They are single-issue zealots whose only concern is banning abortion.

They? Christian fundies are the minority of the pro-lifers/anti abortion (geez all these labels) but you hear them the most. They are the most outspoken and radical while being hypocritial on other life affirming issues which makes them most noticed.

 

[XZeroII]

Originally posted by: Insane3D

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: daclayman
Just wait, it gets better; the adoption argument comes up next. Even though these people, that are so much against abortion that they don't mind the murder of an abortion doctor, would never adopt an off-race child. Just ask yourselves - Who Wants Jelly Donuts?

My sister is adopted from S. Korea...

That's great. How about the kids from the US? Were there not enough over here? The fact remains that is we abolish all abortion, the number of orphans will skyrocket. Who is going to take them all? You?

Why don't people just act responsible? You act like having sex is a necessity and everyone needs to do it. The reason why it's best to not have sex until you're married is so we can prevent crap like this.

I find it disturbing that you condone murder simply because of your own greed for sex.

 

[bigdog1218]

Originally posted by: Insane3D

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: daclayman
Just wait, it gets better; the adoption argument comes up next. Even though these people, that are so much against abortion that they don't mind the murder of an abortion doctor, would never adopt an off-race child. Just ask yourselves - Who Wants Jelly Donuts?

My sister is adopted from S. Korea...

That's great. How about the kids from the US? Were there not enough over here? The fact remains that is we abolish all abortion, the number of orphans will skyrocket. Who is going to take them all? You?

WTF? How about the kids from the US? A person is a person. What does it matter where they adopt a kid from? People like you are whats wrong with the world. So you only give a sh!t about American orphans? Your whole "what about the orphans" argument just went out the fvcking window. You don't care about them cause you don't even recognize non-American orphans as important, you just needed something to support abortions and you chose the easiest route.

 

[Zebo]

The Abortion issue can be summed up with on word. Selfishness.

 

[Corn]

The Abortion issue can be summed up with on word. Selfishness.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: Zebo
The Abortion issue can be summed up with on word. Selfishness.

 

[Corn]

I'm looking forward to reading Moonie's scathing commentary about how women who have abortions do so because they really just hate themselves. Of course they are victims in all this because we are born dead. It's not their fault, they really aren't being selfish, as a matter of fact, abortion is an act of love......saving another child from the insanity of competition................

 

[gordy]

Originally posted by: illusion88

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile

Originally posted by: TheBDB
What is so barbaric about it?

Take a baby, fully capable of surviving outside the womb, birth it about half way, inject a needle into its skull, suck the brains out, skull collapses, baby dies.

That barbaric enough for you?

Take the poor mother, doesnt want to give the kid up, kid goes hungry, doesnt get the proper nutritien, doesn't get care, gets neglicted, is sick three quarters of its life, dies of a lung infection at the age of 12.

Barbaric?

it's simple quit fvcking, whores and pigs fvck up the planet

 

[Corn]

it's simple quit fvcking, whores and pigs fvck up the planet

You've got a little hostility bottled up inside ya.........you and Moonie are gonna have some words.

 

[0roo0roo]

right, quit f*cking like the catholic church basically tells one to do. even contraception is evil!

a little reality is better then a deluded dream, even if its sometimes ugly.

its the same as those abstinence programs politicians enforce in the south, driving up pregancy/desease rates in their quest for absurd purity.

 

[gordy]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
right, quit f*cking like the catholic church basically tells one to do. even contraception is evil!

a little reality is better then a deluded dream, even if its sometimes ugly.

its the same as those abstinence programs politicians enforce in the south, driving up pregancy/desease rates in their quest for absurd purity.

reality, of course not, but true ,yes.

above comments, selfishness..

 

[Zebo]

it's simple quit fvcking, whores and pigs fvck up the planet

Son of a b-b-bi...b-b-bi...itch.. n-n-n o..!

-porky

 

[Insane3D]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: Insane3D

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: daclayman
Just wait, it gets better; the adoption argument comes up next. Even though these people, that are so much against abortion that they don't mind the murder of an abortion doctor, would never adopt an off-race child. Just ask yourselves - Who Wants Jelly Donuts?

My sister is adopted from S. Korea...

That's great. How about the kids from the US? Were there not enough over here? The fact remains that is we abolish all abortion, the number of orphans will skyrocket. Who is going to take them all? You?

I would if I could bro. However, being 18, I think 20 million kids is a bit much for me. My family did what we could to save a life, and I would like to do the same when I am older. Now, what have YOU done to solve the problem?

If we just kill everyone that is handicapped, that will save the U.S. millions and we won't have to worry about caring for such people. But, does that make it right? I don't think so.

See...here we go. This is why this issue is so pointless to even discuss. First off, I was really just trying to convey a point, not attack you. My point is all the people who are so adamant about abortion never talk about the millions of unwanted babies that will come into this world with no one. I am not saying one excuses the other.

 

[Insane3D]

Originally posted by: XZeroII

Originally posted by: Insane3D

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: daclayman
Just wait, it gets better; the adoption argument comes up next. Even though these people, that are so much against abortion that they don't mind the murder of an abortion doctor, would never adopt an off-race child. Just ask yourselves - Who Wants Jelly Donuts?

My sister is adopted from S. Korea...

That's great. How about the kids from the US? Were there not enough over here? The fact remains that is we abolish all abortion, the number of orphans will skyrocket. Who is going to take them all? You?

Why don't people just act responsible? You act like having sex is a necessity and everyone needs to do it. The reason why it's best to not have sex until you're married is so we can prevent crap like this.

I find it disturbing that you condone murder simply because of your own greed for sex.

I figured I would get such a nonsense reply from you. You love to over simplify the problem and look at it from you're own point of view. Simply not having sex is not the solution to everything, and you know it. Ever hear of birth control? We have patches , pills, comdoms and such to avoid that. Not to mention that a good deal of abortions are not simply a matter of reckless sex. What about a woman getting raped? What about abortions that are done for valid medical reasons. You don't care about those though, you want to portray all abortion as a bunch of sluts not being responsible and trotting down to the local clinic everytime they "slip up". What about if you never plan to get married? Should you never have sex too? What if you want to raise a child with someone, but not be married? I love how you think everything would be grand if everyone just was abstinent until your married and had your 2.5 kids and your minivan. Why don't you get out a little more.

Now, I love the last part how you try to slip words into my mouth. First off, maybe I don't consider it murder, but a valid medical procedure. See, there is your problem right there. You tell me I condone "murder" when you don't know my view on things. You are applying your personal feelings on abortion to my statement.

You make it sound like this procedure is so common and reckless women everywhere are just lining up to have this wonderful procedure done. I bet they wait till it's really late in the term so they can have this procedure too....cause it's waaaay more fun than the normal abortion.

As always, the abortion debate gets nowhere because people are never willing to listen to opposing opinions.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: Zebo
The Abortion issue can be summed up with on word. Selfishness.

So can most other political issues. Taxes for example. Welcome to America. Nothing wrong in looking after your own interests. If a woman doesn't want to have a kid until she is ready, that's her business.. The same people against PBA are also against the morning after pill, the abortion pill, reproductive education, prophylactics, etc, which would prevent the need for PBA in the first place.

 

[Insane3D]

Originally posted by: mastertech01
With ultrasound, and all the other medical technology out there to forecast the size and position of the child at birth, I cant see why giving birth would harm a woman more than this procedure. What happened to C-section? I think the good doctors are more interested in fetal tissue for research than for protecting the life of the mother. Its obviously big business to have an abortion clinic. I support early term abortion if it truly presents a hazard to the mothers life to give birth. But in many cases the abortion is just as risky. One example would be the risk of bacterial endocarditis in a woman who was born with heart defects. Her having the abortion would be just as risky for this and many abortion clinics would not even touch her due to this condition. Hell these women have a hard time even getting dental work done.

Mother one day however may suffer grievous bouts with guilt and mental anguish.

Again, I think I'll let the experts make that opinion thanks.

 

[Insane3D]

Originally posted by: bigdog1218

Originally posted by: Insane3D

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: daclayman
Just wait, it gets better; the adoption argument comes up next. Even though these people, that are so much against abortion that they don't mind the murder of an abortion doctor, would never adopt an off-race child. Just ask yourselves - Who Wants Jelly Donuts?

My sister is adopted from S. Korea...

That's great. How about the kids from the US? Were there not enough over here? The fact remains that is we abolish all abortion, the number of orphans will skyrocket. Who is going to take them all? You?

WTF? How about the kids from the US? A person is a person. What does it matter where they adopt a kid from? People like you are whats wrong with the world. So you only give a sh!t about American orphans? Your whole "what about the orphans" argument just went out the fvcking window. You don't care about them cause you don't even recognize non-American orphans as important, you just needed something to support abortions and you chose the easiest route.

Why must you all get so worked up over what you think I said. As I said above, I was not saying that children from outside the US are not important or just as precious as ones here. I was simply pointing out that in his reply to someone saying these same people are unlikely to adopt a "off-race" child that his sister adopted a child from another country. My point was simply that there are many, many children here now without anyone that want them and there would be a lot more if all abortions were banned. Please, please, please, stop putting words in my mouth and assuming you know my whole position from one post. Thanks.

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: Insane3D

Religous and moral issues aside, why should the government be making decisions that doctors should be making? It seems to me they are much better qualified. Are "pro-lifers" beliefs any more valid than "pro-choicers"? You know...it's funny. A good deal of these people that are so against abortion in any form have no problems with the death penalty.

again insane3d i have to ask ,why are you seemingly ignoring the fact many health care professionals are AGAINST abortion? as far as lawmakers doing what they do, should i wait for a fireman to tell me to leave a burning building because only firemen are qualified to judge the danger of fires?

all the pro-choice camp can do is put forth arguments of justification.

can you show me scientific evidence a 21 month old fetus is less a living human than you are? i am still waiting to see it. the scientific evidence shows life begins at conception, it is a scientific fact dead emryonic cells do not divide, if you can provide an example of dead cells dividing, i would dearly love to see the link. pictures would be nice to!

if i were to deem your quality of life to be poor by my standards, does that justify me to end your life? what would your choice be if i asked you? who would defend you if you could not vocalize your opinion?

all opinions are not equally valid, that idea is a laughable travesty.

perhaps we could discuss the absoluteness of truth on another thread?

back to work for me! see you tonight!

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: Zebo
The Abortion issue can be summed up with on word. Selfishness.

So can most other political issues. Taxes for example. Welcome to America. Nothing wrong in looking after your own interests. If a woman doesn't want to have a kid until she is ready, that's her business.. The same people against PBA are also against the morning after pill, the abortion pill, reproductive education, prophylactics, etc, which would prevent the need for PBA in the first place.

Very true but this one leaves one less person on the planet for the convienance of the mother. A little differnet than paying 15% capital gains instead of 20% no?