Parents want to buy a small new SUV. Recommendations?

[fleabag]

'For those who aren't aware, before the invention of the differential, all cars were 1 wheel drive'

thaty implies you have absolutely no knowledge of what a differential actually is or what it does.

i've tried to be nice, now go sit in the corner.

hahahahahaha, can someone else tear this guy a new one? He won't realize how retarded he sounds unless someone besides me tells him off...

 

[RedArmy]

Fleabag, you and caveman were told by a mod to stop derailing the thread. Caveman obviously took the hint or did the right thing and just ignored you. Please though, go on and keep posting, I'd like to see what happens.

As for the OP, I'm all about the Subaru. We've always had at least two in the family and we've never been let down by either of them in any weather (I live in central/upstate NY).

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Fuzzy, which Honda dealer are you going to, Jay on the Automile, or Classic in Streetsboro? Ill recommend Classic as a MUCH better dealer than Jay... if you havent been to classic, ask if Hayes Jackson is in, i dont think he works during the winter, but the man is a sales god, and will tell you more than anyone i know about the vehicles...

Also, while your there, walk across to Nissan and try out the Rogue, perhaps it will work for what your parents are looking for...

This is all assuming they live where i think they do still...

Yeah, I've been to Jay in Bedford, and boy does it suck. I've talked to a few salespeople and it's like they don't car about selling cars. Maybe too comfy that Hondas will just sell themselves? But honestly, I don't think we'll go with a Honda unless we decide on a totally different class of car (SUV/Station Wagon like the Forester versus an econocar FWD like the Fit). But if they do sway to buying a Honda, I'll have them go to the other dealership like you mentioned.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

hahahahahaha, can someone else tear this guy a new one? He won't realize how retarded he sounds unless someone besides me tells him off...

I would advise you to stop. I told Caveman to stop flaming you and derailing my thread because while he did contribute valuable information earlier in the thread, he was only repeatedly egging you on later without contributing information on exactly WHY you were wrong, only that you were wrong and making fun of you for it. But then blbxh made an excellent post explaining what diffs are to all of us and you're still continuing. Stop.

The concept of diffs is quite straightforward, and it looks like the CRV uses a hydraulically actuated center diff that uses clutches, but for whatever reason it's just not sending enough torque to the rear wheels to do anything. I've heard though that they've tweaked the design in... 2008 I wanna say... to provide 20% more power to the rears. Still don't know if this extra 20% would do anything though. 20% of a very small number is still a very small number. And it still doesn't change the fact that the system is reactionary and requires the fronts to slip first before actuating the rear wheels.

Anyone know what kind of center diff Subarus use? It's probably not viscous or hydraulic clutches like the Hondas. Probably not a Torsen either since I've read that if there's zero torque in the front wheels there will also be zero torque in the rear wheels because zero over a ratio of, say, 5 to 1 is still zero.

 

[brblx]

iirc subaru uses a viscous coupling that can get somewhere close to 50/50 power distribution. they may have stepped up to an electronin system on some of their higher end cars, but the cheaper models are definately still viscous.

if you really want 'the best' AWD, subaru is probably a safe bet for the OP.

 

[PhoKingGuy]

iirc subaru uses a viscous coupling that can get somewhere close to 50/50 power distribution. they may have stepped up to an electronin system on some of their higher end cars, but the cheaper models are definately still viscous.

if you really want 'the best' AWD, subaru is probably a safe bet for the OP.

subaru awd or audi quattro/vw 4motion are the best systems short of something like the EVOs, but for daily use yeah, those two are the best.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

iirc subaru uses a viscous coupling that can get somewhere close to 50/50 power distribution. they may have stepped up to an electronin system on some of their higher end cars, but the cheaper models are definately still viscous.

if you really want 'the best' AWD, subaru is probably a safe bet for the OP.

ok, here's where I'm confused then. I thought viscous coupling was reactionary. The front starts to slip, which starts churning the viscous fluid, which then drags the rear wheels to start spinning. So like the Honda, Subaru AWD still requires the fronts to start slipping before power is transferred to the back?

But I guess it's instantaneous, and I also guess that the fluid is so viscous as to achieve close to 50/50? And this 50/50 is only close to being achieved if the fronts are REALLY slipping?

Would I need to drain and replace the fluid at some point?

 

[Capt Caveman]

The reason in those videos the Subaru is able to pass the test is that the torque is split 60/40 under normal conditions then can redistribute the torque 50/50 when needed. The addition of traction control and a limited slip rear differential also assist. As mentioned already, the CRV and RAV4 are essentially FWD til a slip is detected before the rear-wheel engage. And apparently neither of those systems distribute enough torque to the rear to pass the test.

FBB, you might find this helpful.

Is Subaru's awd system the best ?

4-speed Automatic Transmission

The 4-speed Electronic Direct Control Automatic Transmission with SPORTSHIFTtm (4EAT SS) incorporates an advanced multi-plate transfer clutch centre differential for smooth and consistent acceleration, even under low-traction conditions. Under normal circumstances, this active torque split system maintains a 60/40 front/rear split for more predictable handling and moves towards a 50/50 split when conditions warrant or under hard acceleration. The SPORTSHIFTtm generates increased fun behind the wheel, allowing drivers to manually shift gears with the flick of a wrist. This feature gives drivers the ability to choose between three different drive modes - Economy, Sport and SPORTSHIFTtm.

Forester models equipped with the 4-speed Automatic Transmission with SPORTSHIFT® use a multi-plate transfer clutch limited-slip centre differential. This allows the driver to choose from two fully automatic modes (Normal and Sport) and a manual-shift SPORTSHIFT® mode. The AWD system maintains a 60/40 torque split (front/rear) and automatically adjusts up to 50/50 split under hard acceleration or when conditions warrant.

Electronically-controlled Multi-Plate Transfer Clutch

Subaru uses a Multi-plate Transfer Clutch System (MPT) on many of its automatic-equipped models for a combination of optimum traction and fuel economy. The system uses an electro-mechanical centre differential. Its control unit constantly monitors input from the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS), the Engine Control Module (ECM), the Transmission Control Module (TCM) and wheel speed sensors to provide the most effective front/rear balance of torque.

In good traction, the MPT’s predetermined logic splits torque 60/40 front/rear for enhanced fuel economy. In poor traction situations or under hard acceleration it can vary the balance up to a full 50/50 for maximum traction.

Variable Torque Distribution

Variable Torque Distribution (VTD) is a highly sophisticated system for automatic transmissions that combines an electro-mechanical centre differential with the advanced capabilities of a planetary gear set. The difference between VTD and MPT is significant—while MPT can vary torque between 60/40 and 50/50 front/rear, VTD provides the kind of performance experience usually associated with rear-wheel drive vehicles. In most conditions, the split is 45 percent front, 55 percent rear for an enhanced performance feel. In poor traction conditions, VTD can dynamically adjust up to a full 50/50 front/rear split.

When used with Subaru’s advanced Vehicle Dynamics Control (VDC), VTD has the flexibility to open the centre differential fully and direct engine torque to a single wheel. The VDC-equipped system works in tandem with the AWD system, Traction Control and ABS to provide outstanding stability control.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

The reason in those videos the Subaru is able to pass the test is that the torque is split 60/40 under normal conditions then can redistribute the torque 50/50 when needed. The addition of traction control and a limited slip rear differential also assist. As mentioned already, the CRV and RAV4 are essentially FWD til a slip is detected before the rear-wheel engage. And apparently neither of those systems distribute enough torque to the rear to pass the test.

FBB, you might find this helpful.

Is Subaru's awd system the best ?

ahhh.... I see. So:

Subaru:

Manual Transmissions: Viscous Coupling but can do 50/50
Automatic: multi-plate clutch that varies 60/40 to 50/50
AWD upgrade: multi-plate clutch that varies from 45/55 to 50/50
WRX STI: adds ability for the driver to manually lock to 50/50, plus more intelligent automatic electronic control

Regardless, it's good to know that even the base Automatic AWD starts at 60/40 and can do 50/50. When I read Subaru's description in-store it stated that they are "predominantly front wheel drive but the rear wheels still get some power continuously." Talk about a vague statement.

The CRV... starts at 100/0, maybe goes to 70/30? +20% rear for 2008 models and up so that's only 64/36. Still kinda sucks. This is just me pulling numbers out of my ass.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Parents bought the Subaru Forester today.

Base model + Fog Lights installed.

$22,877.75 out the door

Asking Price:
$22,109 asking price
+$385 fog lights
x 1.065 (Ohio 6.5% tax)
+$250 document fee
+$33.50 title fee
-----------------------
$24,239.61 -> out the door based on sticker

Bottom Line Price:
$20,354 (consumer reports bottom line price, the price in which dealership would make no profit)
+$385 fog lights
x 1.065 (Ohio 6.5% tax)
+$250 document fee
+$33.50 title fee
---------------------------
$22,370.54 -> bottom line price

$24,239.61 - $22,370.54 = $1,869.07 difference between sticker and bottom line

We met at $22,877.75, $1,361.86 below sticker price or $507.21 above bottom line price.

How did we do? And man, if that bottom line price is real (taking into consideration holdbacks as well) then it's hard making money as a car salesman...

 

[Nyati13]

ahhh.... I see. So:

Subaru:

Manual Transmissions: Viscous Coupling but can do 50/50
Automatic: multi-plate clutch that varies 60/40 to 50/50
AWD upgrade: multi-plate clutch that varies from 45/55 to 50/50
WRX STI: adds ability for the driver to manually lock to 50/50, plus more intelligent automatic electronic control

Regardless, it's good to know that even the base Automatic AWD starts at 60/40 and can do 50/50. When I read Subaru's description in-store it stated that they are "predominantly front wheel drive but the rear wheels still get some power continuously." Talk about a vague statement.

The CRV... starts at 100/0, maybe goes to 70/30? +20% rear for 2008 models and up so that's only 64/36. Still kinda sucks. This is just me pulling numbers out of my ass.

Not quite... regarding the Subarus

Manual: Starts at 50/50 then can go to 100/0 or 0/100 depending on wheel slip.
CVT 4spd Auto: Either 90/10 when in D or 50/50 when in 1st or 2nd gear, and can go to 100/0 or 0/100 depending on wheel slip.
5spd Auto: Starts at 45/55 and can go 100/0 or 0/100 depending on wheel slip.
Manual DCCD: Starts at 45/55 or 40/60 and can go 100/0 or 0/100 depending on wheel slip.

All of Subaru's AWD systems can push 100% of the torque to either axle.

 

[MikeMike]

FYI, the current best iteration of an AWD is found in the Sabb 9-3x, it has XWD, and can transfer i believe 100% from front to rear, and side to side...

 

[SearchMaster]

According to www.truecar.com, you did pretty well. Their "great price" of $20,950 translates to $22,444 with tax/doc/title, and their "average price" of $21,350 translates to $23,020 with tax/doc/title. So you're in between "average/good" and "great".

Truecar tends to show higher prices than I've seen in the open market place, at least in my experience, but it gives a decent benchmark on what others are paying across the country. The prices I listed above are for my zip code, which might be slightly lower than for your zip code because demand for Subarus is probably lower where I live.

 

[Mide]

+1 for the Subaru Forester

 

[PricklyPete]

You're parents bought the right model...Forester is a great all around product.

 

[rh71]

exactly how bad are the Subaru interiors since you mentioned it earlier? About to recommend mr. suv-of-the-year to someone...

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

exactly how bad are the Subaru interiors since you mentioned it earlier? About to recommend mr. suv-of-the-year to someone...

Well, fit and quality-wise, they're pretty good. No super thin cheap plastic like you would find in a Toyota. What I don't like is the design - the looks are very plain and uninspired. Button placement and amenities are all very standard. Square intrument panel. No wow factor. Not modern looking. And the practical design is also very standard. One glove box, a couple cup holders, a center console, and a little center cubby where the cigarette lighter outlet is. Back seats fold down flat. Average. Compare this to the Honda Fit. Very modern looking interior. Interesting instrument layout. Good color scheme. Tons of cubby and storage spaces everywhere. 10 cup holders in all. Rear seat folds down flat and the seat cushions can even fold up off the floor. Front passenger seat can fold down flat as well, creating a long space from the front dash to the hatchback door to store a really long item.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

exactly how bad are the Subaru interiors since you mentioned it earlier? About to recommend mr. suv-of-the-year to someone...

Well, fit and quality-wise, they're pretty good. No super thin cheap plastic like you would find in a Toyota. What I don't like is the design - the looks are very plain and uninspired. Button placement and amenities are all very standard. Square intrument panel. No wow factor. Not modern looking. And the practical design is also very standard. One glove box, a couple cup holders, a center console, and a little center cubby where the cigarette lighter outlet is. The heating vents are well placed and don't miss spots on the windows. Back seats fold down flat. Average. Compare this to the Honda Fit. Very modern looking interior. Interesting instrument layout. Good color scheme. Tons of cubby and storage spaces everywhere. 10 cup holders in all. Rear seat folds down flat and the seat cushions can even fold up off the floor. Front passenger seat can fold down flat as well, creating a long space from the front dash to the hatchback door to store a really long item.

So in summary, it's not the quality of the interior that's bad, it's the design.