Parents want to buy a small new SUV. Recommendations?

[fuzzybabybunny]

Acura's SH-AWD is out of the question? Im sure you could pick up a RDX (crv) for around $20,000

prolly not for brand new 🙁

 

[alfa147x]

prolly not for brand new 🙁

Yeah NO way brand new but I loved how that car ran! One of my all time favorites.

 

[cheesehead]

I checked out some videos of the Subaru, CRV, and RAV4 in simulated and non-simulated AWD conditions.

The Honda CRV is 100% useless offroad. However, on snowy hills, it seems to work very well.

Yeah NO way brand new but I loved how that car ran! One of my all time favorites.

I'm just going to point out how everyone here who has owned a CRV or its' Acura near-equivalent are very, very happy with it. It is, however, out of your price range, though buying a secondhand Honda is not a bad idea - they last a looooong time.

I can make one final recommendation - the Suzuki SX4. It's an econobox, but unlike the Fit, it does the "Econo" part properly - it's very reasonably priced. It also has 4WD standard, so it'll work in the snow just fine.

 

[fleabag]

I checked out some videos of the Subaru, CRV, and RAV4 in simulated and non-simulated AWD conditions. The incline climb when the front wheels are on rollers. Their systems should be able to transfer power to the rear wheels and go up the incline. Subaru had no problem, but CRV and RAV4 just couldn't do it. It's like nothing was happening, and the incline wasn't that big... The CRV was torque steering at the same time as well.

It's like the full time AWD on these things are just completely gimmicky. Sure, we don't NEED true AWD, but if we're going to pay extra for it, it'd better work, otherwise we might as well just go for their FWD versions.

It sounds like the case of an open differential which in this case isn't a side to side thing, but a front to back. Normally when you slip with 2WD with an open differential, the wheel with the least traction is the one that spins. However when you've got 2 pairs of wheels working for you on an open differential, the two wheels with the least traction are the ones that are going to spin. This is why some vehicles are equipped with a center differential lock so the power is 50/50 to front and rear, and then real offroaders then have differential locks to that it's 50/50 to each wheel.

 

[Capt Caveman]

It sounds like the case of an open differential which in this case isn't a side to side thing, but a front to back. Normally when you slip with 2WD with an open differential, the wheel with the least traction is the one that spins. However when you've got 2 pairs of wheels working for you on an open differential, the two wheels with the least traction are the ones that are going to spin. This is why some vehicles are equipped with a center differential lock so the power is 50/50 to front and rear, and then real offroaders then have differential locks to that it's 50/50 to each wheel.

In FBB's example, you would be wrong again.

 

[fleabag]

In FBB's example, you would be wrong again.

Haha, nice try. I don't know if you're actually an idiot or just a troll but for now, I'm just going to say you're a troll. You seem to be more of a troll because after nearly every post I make, you always dispute what I'm saying, even if I'm stating the obvious.

 

[MotF Bane]

Haha, nice try. I don't know if you're actually an idiot or just a troll but for now, I'm just going to say you're a troll. You seem to be more of a troll because after nearly every post I make, you always dispute what I'm saying, even if I'm stating the obvious.

LOOOOLLLLLLLL

Caveman, I don't know how you can live with yourself now, you've been called a troll by a child who occasionally drives his parents' car.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

It sounds like the case of an open differential which in this case isn't a side to side thing, but a front to back. Normally when you slip with 2WD with an open differential, the wheel with the least traction is the one that spins. However when you've got 2 pairs of wheels working for you on an open differential, the two wheels with the least traction are the ones that are going to spin. This is why some vehicles are equipped with a center differential lock so the power is 50/50 to front and rear, and then real offroaders then have differential locks to that it's 50/50 to each wheel.

What I think is happening is that the CRV doesn't have a very good differential between the front and back wheels. If it was an entirely open differential then the torque between the front and rear wheels would match. If the front are slipping with zero torque, the rear would have zero torque and do nothing. But if this was the case, I don't think the car could be classified as an AWD car in the first place, uh, right? How could you classify a car as an AWD if the differential's side function is to match the torque of the front wheels to that of the back? So that when the front slips the back does nothing?

Maybe they use a viscous fluid center differential: the fronts start slipping but the viscous coupling still allows some torque to the rear wheels, just not enough to do diddly squat in real life.

Real offroaders with a mode to lock the back with a 50/50 split... the rear wheels are always turning at the same speed as the front. But this makes for bad on-road performance and wear and tear in turns, no?

 

[fleabag]

What I think is happening is that the CRV doesn't have a very good differential between the front and back wheels. If it was an entirely open differential then the torque between the front and rear wheels would match. If the front are slipping with zero torque, the rear would have zero torque and do nothing. But if this was the case, I don't think the car could be classified as an AWD car in the first place.

Maybe they use a viscous fluid center differential: the fronts start slipping but the viscous coupling still allows some torque to the rear wheels, just not enough to do diddly squat in real life.

Uh, I think you're confused but on the right track. If the front is slipping with all the torque going to the front wheels, then the rear wheels wouldn't spin at all. On an open differential, the torque goes to the wheel with the LEAST traction which is why with an open diff, if you're stuck in mud, you'll find one wheel spinning with the other wheel stationary. It's not necessarily a bad differential, it's just one that doesn't have the capability of lockup which makes it useless for situations with really poor traction. They can classify it as an AWD just as much as they can classify a camry or corolla as 2WD car and not a 1WD. For those who aren't aware, before the invention of the differential, all cars were 1 wheel drive.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Haha, nice try. I don't know if you're actually an idiot or just a troll but for now, I'm just going to say you're a troll. You seem to be more of a troll because after nearly every post I make, you always dispute what I'm saying, even if I'm stating the obvious.

Except dumbass, what you are regurgitating from what you've read on the internet does not apply to the vehicles mentioned. So, please STFU and stop posting about cars, since you've proven time after time that you know nothing about them.

Yeah, spraying vinegar/water solution to prevent icing on one's windshield is brilliant. As is inflating tires to sidewall max, especially in snow/ice conditions.

Again, how old are you? How long have you had your license? How many miles driven? You talk about all these cars you've worked on, where do you work? If you don't answer these questions, DO NOT post again about cars.

Oh wait, you're a dumbass sixteen year old who has driven on snow once and now thinks he's some expert or something.

 

[fleabag]

Except dumbass, what you are regurgitating from what you've read on the internet does not apply to the vehicles mentioned. So, please STFU and stop posting about cars, since you've proven time after time that you know nothing about them.

Yeah, spraying vinegar/water solution to prevent icing on one's windshield is brilliant. As is inflating tires to sidewall max, especially in snow/ice conditions.

Again, how old are you? How long have you had your license? How many miles driven? You talk about all these cars you've worked on, where do you work? If you don't answer these questions, DO NOT post again about cars.

Oh wait, you're a dumbass sixteen year old who has driven on snow once and now thinks he's some expert or something.

Confirmed, you are indeed a troll. Couldn't troll any harder now could you?

 

[Capt Caveman]

Confirmed, you are indeed a troll. Couldn't troll any harder now could you?

😀

You're the troll. You don't even know the types of AWD systems that these vehicles use, so you make a dumbass out of yourself by talking about stuff that isn't related to these vehicles.

That would make you the troll or some know it all sixteen year old that actually doesn't know anything.

Again, how old are you? Where do you work that you've had the opportunity to work on so many cars? Kind of funny, how you won't answer the questions.

You've already been caught in other threads of lying. Again, that makes you a troll.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Uh, I think you're confused but on the right track. If the front is slipping with all the torque going to the front wheels, then the rear wheels wouldn't spin at all. On an open differential, the torque goes to the wheel with the LEAST traction which is why with an open diff, if you're stuck in mud, you'll find one wheel spinning with the other wheel stationary. It's not necessarily a bad differential, it's just one that doesn't have the capability of lockup which makes it useless for situations with really poor traction. They can classify it as an AWD just as much as they can classify a camry or corolla as 2WD car and not a 1WD. For those who aren't aware, before the invention of the differential, all cars were 1 wheel drive.

Surprisingly, a simple google search on the CRV's AWD system would prove that the above is completely false.

 

[Capt Caveman]

LOOOOLLLLLLLL

Caveman, I don't know how you can live with yourself now, you've been called a troll by a child who occasionally drives his parents' car.

I know. It's even funnier that he's describing an AWD system that is different than what the CRV uses. Yet, I'm the troll.

 

[fleabag]

Surprisingly, a simple google search on the CRV's AWD system would prove that the above is completely false.

Writing more stuff doesn't make you any less of a troll. Also I'm going strictly based upon what has been said in this thread, they said the front wheels were spinning and therefore the rear wheels should spin but didn't. I said that's because of the open center differential. Now if honda has devised a way to partially or fully lock up the differential so there is always a 50-50 or 40-60 power split, that's totally feasible but in this case, it's obviously not happening.

The Toyota Land Cruiser from 1991-1997 is full time 4WD with a center differential, if one gets into a situation where a pair of wheels (just the front or just the rear) are spinning, the lockup of the center differential would evenly split the power between the front and rear axle. Now a lot of the FJ80s don't have differential lockers (the lockup of the front left & front right wheels, or rear right & rear left wheels) so there is still the possibility of wheel spin on one wheel on each axle. There are some serious problems with locking up the differential which is why some vehicles use a Limited Slip differential which is a whole 'nother animal that I don't want to discuss.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Writing more stuff doesn't make you any less of a troll. Also I'm going strictly based upon what has been said in this thread, they said the front wheels were spinning and therefore the rear wheels should spin but didn't. I said that's because of the open center differential. Now if honda has devised a way to partially or fully lock up the differential so there is always a 50-50 or 40-60 power split, that's totally feasible but in this case, it's obviously not happening.

The Toyota Land Cruiser from 1991-1997 is full time 4WD with a center differential, if one gets into a situation where a pair of wheels (just the front or just the rear) are spinning, the lockup of the center differential would evenly split the power between the front and rear axle. Now a lot of the FJ80s don't have differential lockers (the lockup of the front left & front right wheels, or rear right & rear left wheels) so there is still the possibility of wheel spin on one wheel on each axle. There are some serious problems with locking up the differential which is why some vehicles use a Limited Slip differential which is a whole 'nother animal that I don't want to discuss.

😀 Like I said, if you don't know what you're talking about then STFU. And more 😀 bringing up a 1991-1997 Land Cruiser.

So, how old are you? How long have you had your license? How many miles have you driven in snow/ice conditions?

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

caveman, rather than repeatedly derail MY thread how about you add to the conversation or GTFO?

 

[Capt Caveman]

caveman, rather than repeatedly derail MY thread how about you add to the conversation or GTFO?

??? I recommended the Subaru Forester from having experience with a CRV. Please tell me what Fleabag has been able to contribute?

 

[DVad3r]

Hey guys what do you think of the car my dad wants to get?

 

[DrPizza]

Caveman & Fleabag: Cease the trolling & derailing of this thread now. -Admin DrPizza

 

[brblx]

Uh, I think you're confused but on the right track. If the front is slipping with all the torque going to the front wheels, then the rear wheels wouldn't spin at all. On an open differential, the torque goes to the wheel with the LEAST traction which is why with an open diff, if you're stuck in mud, you'll find one wheel spinning with the other wheel stationary. It's not necessarily a bad differential, it's just one that doesn't have the capability of lockup which makes it useless for situations with really poor traction. They can classify it as an AWD just as much as they can classify a camry or corolla as 2WD car and not a 1WD. For those who aren't aware, before the invention of the differential, all cars were 1 wheel drive.

am i allowed to reply to this? i feel like i've got a couple things to say, but i don't want to be accused of 'feeding the troll.' mostly just technical stuff, as there's a lot of misinformation in the upper half of this page.

in this post, fleabag says some true stuff, some not true stuff, and then just randomly blurts out that he has no idea what a differential does, basically.

yes, an open diff sends more torque to the wheel spinning faster. yes, if an AWD had an open diff between the front and rear wheels, it would not be AWD. at all.

but what is clearly not understood is how a differential works or what it's there for. it's to allow the wheels to spin at different speeds, not to keep them locked at the same speed. if cars didn't have differentials, they would be 2WD, as the axle would be one straight rod with the wheels rigidly linked. it was specifically the invention of the differential, a square-shaped arrangement of four gears inside a carrier (fleabag, look for a youtube demonstration of differential action, as i'm going to go out on a limb and say you've never seen it for yourself and therefore do not understand), that allowed the wheels to turn at different rates of speed.

AWD cars do NOT use open differentials between the front and rear wheels. there must specifically be a way of locking the front and rear wheels together with a limited amount of slip. this is accomplished through a viscous clutch (again, they have a somewhat complex action- look up how they work) or electronically controlled clutches. both devices have the same goal- transfer torque from the wheels that are spinning faster to the wheels that are spinning slower.

a limited slip ('positraction') differential on a RWD car (or what's often called a quaife on a FWD) works through different means but accomplishes the same purpose. the differential portion (aforementioned set of four spider gears) works exactly the same, there is just extra stuff added (typically a pack of clutches) to basically regulate the speed difference between the two wheels. a limited amount of slip is necessary to keep the tires from squealing around corners, as geometry guarantees that the inside and outside wheels will be at different speeds. same thing with AWD- the back wheels aren't always going to follow the fronts at the same speed, particularly in parking lot maneuvers.

i think i have a bit of a soft spot for fleabag because he reminds me of myself at about 14 or 15- he probably seems smart as hell to people his age, but his head is getting a bit big, and he forgets that he's arguing with people who are 20-40 years old or higher, who may be in the field for a living. just learn to lay back and learn some shit, dude, it's obvious you've read a lot of a stuff, but reading an internet article on something does not make you an expert on it.

 

[MikeMike]

Fuzzy, which Honda dealer are you going to, Jay on the Automile, or Classic in Streetsboro? Ill recommend Classic as a MUCH better dealer than Jay... if you havent been to classic, ask if Hayes Jackson is in, i dont think he works during the winter, but the man is a sales god, and will tell you more than anyone i know about the vehicles...

Also, while your there, walk across to Nissan and try out the Rogue, perhaps it will work for what your parents are looking for...

This is all assuming they live where i think they do still...

 

[fleabag]

yes, an open diff sends more torque to the wheel spinning faster. yes, if an AWD had an open diff between the front and rear wheels, it would not be AWD. at all.

So what 'exactly' would this system be? Hmm?

but what is clearly not understood is how a differential works or what it's there for. it's to allow the wheels to spin at different speeds, not to keep them locked at the same speed. if cars didn't have differentials, they would be 2WD, as the axle would be one straight rod with the wheels rigidly linked. it was specifically the invention of the differential, a square-shaped arrangement of four gears inside a carrier (fleabag, look for a youtube demonstration of differential action, as i'm going to go out on a limb and say you've never seen it for yourself and therefore do not understand), that allowed the wheels to turn at different rates of speed.

AWD cars do NOT use open differentials between the front and rear wheels. there must specifically be a way of locking the front and rear wheels together with a limited amount of slip. this is accomplished through a viscous clutch (again, they have a somewhat complex action- look up how they work) or electronically controlled clutches. both devices have the same goal- transfer torque from the wheels that are spinning faster to the wheels that are spinning slower.

a limited slip ('positraction') differential on a RWD car (or what's often called a quaife on a FWD) works through different means but accomplishes the same purpose. the differential portion (aforementioned set of four spider gears) works exactly the same, there is just extra stuff added (typically a pack of clutches) to basically regulate the speed difference between the two wheels. a limited amount of slip is necessary to keep the tires from squealing around corners, as geometry guarantees that the inside and outside wheels will be at different speeds. same thing with AWD- the back wheels aren't always going to follow the fronts at the same speed, particularly in parking lot maneuvers.

How can you dare to quote me and then write all of that like as if it somehow contradicts what I just said! I'm fully aware of the purpose of a differential and how it works. Why don't you just explain to everyone what exactly a vehicle with an open center differential is because I'm interested in hearing what you're going to say.

 

[MikeMike]

So what 'exactly' would this system be? Hmm?

How can you dare to quote me and then write all of that like as if it somehow contradicts what I just said! I'm fully aware of the purpose of a differential and how it works. Why don't you just explain to everyone what exactly a vehicle with an open center differential is because I'm interested in hearing what you're going to say.

i just read this, an Open Diff is a freaking normal non LSD diff... all it does is power the wheel with least resistance... that is all..

 

[brblx]

So what 'exactly' would this system be? Hmm?

How can you dare to quote me and then write all of that like as if it somehow contradicts what I just said! I'm fully aware of the purpose of a differential and how it works. Why don't you just explain to everyone what exactly a vehicle with an open center differential is because I'm interested in hearing what you're going to say.

'For those who aren't aware, before the invention of the differential, all cars were 1 wheel drive'

thaty implies you have absolutely no knowledge of what a differential actually is or what it does.

i've tried to be nice, now go sit in the corner.