Paramedic’s Angry Post About "Burger Flippers" Making $15/hr Goes Viral

[Jimzz]

Instead of worrying why they make as much as you, why not ask your boss why you make as little as you do?

 

[halik]

That's not accurate. It's in the $70k or so range.

Nope

 

[fskimospy]

Nope

You're being misled by the chart, which is showing average income, not median. Average income should not be used in this case because it is dramatically skewed by ultra high earners.

Here's pretty recent median weekly earnings from BLS, you can pretty easily extrapolate them to median yearly income and see it's nowhere close to $100k for BS holders.

EDIT: It's important to note this is median weekly earnings per individual, not household. Regardless, unless every single household is a two income household (and it's absolutely not), median income isn't at $100k for a BS household.

 

[Exterous]

If their work could be easily replaced by machines, it would have already been done.

Nope. Easy =/ cost effective. If it made financial sense it would have been done already. As soon as reliable automation is cheaper than a person you are going to see people being replaced by machines in FF. It will be interesting to see if a $15/hr minimum wage brings that to NYC sooner than other places

 

[SMOGZINN]

If their work could be easily replaced by machines, it would have already been done. Margins are extremely competitive in FF.

I don't know why so many assume machines can just replace everyone one. Machines are good for predictable, repetitive tasks, not dynamic work environments.

They soon will be.
McDonald's has already opened up several fully automated stores. It is just a matter of time before they upgrade the rest. Once they have proven the technology all the other large chain fast food restaurants will have to follow suit to remain competitive.

 

[davmat787]

Moot. They still have to Live.

No one has to live. And if they did the responsibility for providing the resources to sustain life isn't the responsibility of a fast food franchise.

Fixing economic problems that don't allow for a fast food position to provide an acceptable standard of living, in NYC no less, by demanding fast food industries pay more seems like attacking the problem from the wrong or perhaps treating the symptom rather than the disease.

What happens when artificially increased wages lead to the inevitable increases in food prices and all the sudden shitty combo meals reach the critical tipping price point and the business isn't sustainable any longer?

If the franchise is legally compelled to pay a certain wage why not have the beef provider required to sell at a low enough price point so the quad patty McFatass combo is profitable enough to sustain the new minimum wage? And on and on...

 

[Sonikku]

No one has to live. And if they did the responsibility for providing the resources to sustain life isn't the responsibility of a fast food franchise.

Fixing economic problems that don't allow for a fast food position to provide an acceptable standard of living, in NYC no less, by demanding fast food industries pay more seems like attacking the problem from the wrong or perhaps treating the symptom rather than the disease.

What happens when artificially increased wages lead to the inevitable increases in food prices and all the sudden shitty combo meals reach the critical tipping price point and the business isn't sustainable any longer?

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2015/08/03/3687171/15-minimum-wage-big-mac/

If the minimum wage were increased to $15 an hour, prices at fast food restaurants would rise by an estimated 4.3 percent, according to a new study. That would mean a McDonald’s Big Mac, which currently goes for $3.99, would cost about 17 cents more, or $4.16.

If 17 cents is going to break McDonald's backs they have worse problems than minimum wage.

 

[werepossum]

Their work consists of putting a cup under a soda faucet, putting meat on two pieces of bread and squirting condiments on the bread, and dropping French fries into oil.

The UAW complains that VW workers in Chattanooga start at $14/hour. The truth is if they were paid more VW could not sell the Passat at the price point they needed and the company wold have built the plant in Mexico.

Fast foods business model is to sell a meal for $4-$7 (adjust for your locality). If a company cannot attract consumers with a cheap meal they will go out of business.

Well said, although as Tweaker points out, New York cost of living is not Chattanooga cost of living.

Aren't we sort'a talking apples/oranges here in the sense that the cost of living in NY is much higher than in TN?

Quite true. $15 minimum wage might be reasonable in New York City.

If only VW had some other avenue to pay their employees more before raising product prices...

This shows the basic disconnect in how the left and right see the world. The right believes that jobs exist because people have something they need or want done for which they are willing to pay and that if a man earns money legally, that money is his. The left believes that jobs exist because people need money and that if a man earns money legally, that money belongs to everyone because "he didn't build that". Not much can be said except to point that out as it is fundamental to each side's beliefs and mores. This is why we have such a hard time finding common ground - we no longer have a common understanding of the world.

 

[fskimospy]

This shows the basic disconnect in how the left and right see the world. The right believes that jobs exist because people have something they need or want done for which they are willing to pay and that if a man earns money legally, that money is his. The left believes that jobs exist because people need money and that if a man earns money legally, that money belongs to everyone because "he didn't build that". Not much can be said except to point that out as it is fundamental to each side's beliefs and mores. This is why we have such a hard time finding common ground - we no longer have a common understanding of the world.

I can't recall meeting a single liberal person who believes anything even remotely approaching that what people earn belongs to everyone.

The reason we have such a hard time finding common ground is because we do lack a common understanding of the world. It just so happens that problem stems from you having a fundamentally insane view of what people on the left believe that lacks even a passing relationship with reality. (I'm quite sure if you asked GTB if he believed money belonged to everyone he would say no, for example)

It's baffling to see someone who apparently has enough self awareness to diagnose that he and others are seeing things differently, but has no clue that his own crazy thoughts are the problem. It's just delusions piled on top of delusions.

 

[Jimzz]

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2015/08/03/3687171/15-minimum-wage-big-mac/


If 17 cents is going to break McDonald's backs they have worse problems than minimum wage.

McDonalds no, the franchise owner maybe.

Margins are thin and McDonalds has tightened the belt and made them sell items at or even below cost like when the McDouble was $0.99.

 

[halik]

You're being misled by the chart, which is showing average income, not median. Average income should not be used in this case because it is dramatically skewed by ultra high earners.

Here's pretty recent median weekly earnings from BLS, you can pretty easily extrapolate them to median yearly income and see it's nowhere close to $100k for BS holders.

EDIT: It's important to note this is median weekly earnings per individual, not household. Regardless, unless every single household is a two income household (and it's absolutely not), median income isn't at $100k for a BS household.

Wow that's idiotic, I assumed Pew would use medians - census gives you both median and mean data sets for education attainment. Found a better link, says $80K+

http://www.statista.com/statistics/233301/median-household-income-in-the-united-states-by-education/

 

[SMOGZINN]

No one has to live. And if they did the responsibility for providing the resources to sustain life isn't the responsibility of a fast food franchise.

When it comes to living people will kill others to do so. So, you can push the blame around all you want, and try to point fingers at who should be responsible for making sure that those people don't get desperate enough to start killing but ultimately you, I, and those fast food franchises all have our heads in that same noose. History has taught us that your let them eat cake philosophy leads to the guillotine.

This shows the basic disconnect in how the left and right see the world. The right believes that jobs exist because people have something they need or want done for which they are willing to pay and that if a man earns money legally, that money is his. The left believes that jobs exist because people need money and that if a man earns money legally, that money belongs to everyone because "he didn't build that". Not much can be said except to point that out as it is fundamental to each side's beliefs and mores. This is why we have such a hard time finding common ground - we no longer have a common understanding of the world.

Part of the problem is that both sides are set on demonizing the other sides, as seen in your post. You don't actually give a description of the two viewpoints, you instead decide to lampoon one side's views in order to make yours look more reasonable. This is the echo chamber. You are not even willing to look at the two sides reasonably because you are too invested in being right.

A more accurate description of the two sides differentiating view would be that both sides agree that money is a method of distributing a society's resources, but the right thinks that resources belong to those that are able to take them, mostly without regard of how that is accomplished. The left believe that everyone should be given enough resources to survive with some level of comfort, and that the remainder of the resources should be allowed to be captured by who ever can, mostly without regard of how that is accomplished.

 

[Fingolfin269]

If only VW had some other avenue to pay their employees more before raising product prices...

The thing is $14/hr in Chattanooga is actually not so bad. Cost of Living is low. I wouldn't want to live on $14/hr ($28/hr assuming household) but $55k-$60k/year is not awful in Chattanooga. Plus autoworkers tend to get overtime pay so the likelihood is they could be in the $65k-$70k/year range.

 

[Ns1]

If their work could be easily replaced by machines, it would have already been done. Margins are extremely competitive in FF.

I don't know why so many assume machines can just replace everyone one. Machines are good for predictable, repetitive tasks, not dynamic work environments.

Nope. Easy =/ cost effective. If it made financial sense it would have been done already. As soon as reliable automation is cheaper than a person you are going to see people being replaced by machines in FF. It will be interesting to see if a $15/hr minimum wage brings that to NYC sooner than other places

this.

If cost to operate this < $15/hr, then use human labor. If >= $15/hr, use machine.

 

[OutHouse]

Moot. They still have to Live.

not mcdonalds responsibility.

 

[OutHouse]

If the minimum wage were increased to $15 an hour, prices at fast food restaurants would rise by an estimated 4.3 percent, according to a new study. That would mean a McDonald&#8217;s Big Mac, which currently goes for $3.99, would cost about 17 cents more, or $4.16.

not buying into that study.

 

[Ns1]

not buying into that study.

Does the study account for the increased wages that will need to be given to everyone, and not just the minimum wage increase?

 

[fskimospy]

Wow that's idiotic, I assumed Pew would use medians - census gives you both median and mean data sets for education attainment. Found a better link, says $80K+

http://www.statista.com/statistics/233301/median-household-income-in-the-united-states-by-education/

$80k sounds much more reasonable. I agree, the Pew chart was pretty misleading; who cares about average #s when it comes to this?

 

[Sonikku]

not buying into that study.

Of course not. It contrasts your agenda.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2441562

 

[michal1980]

Of course not. It contrasts your agenda.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2441562

and the people that buy into the study are those who's agenda it reinforces.

 

[MongGrel]

The only real thing to me out of the thread is EMT's are paid that little.

Is a bit surprising to me actually.

 

[MongGrel]

If I were to frequent a food business and most of the items drastically went up I would stop frequenting the store. IMO, this is what will happen because most people are on tight budgets.

The reality is many many Americans today are college educated, but they are unskilled. They are unskilled in the subjects that matter today: math, science and technology. This in-turn has created a gluttony of both college and high school unskilled workers who are all vying for the same low paying jobs. The reason why we are seeing such a stink about minimum wage is because many of the adults working these jobs are college educated people. These are bright people, but they are unskilled.

During my time in South Korea I've worked with many students. The one thing that struck me was how highly skilled they were in math, science and technology. This is why they are ready for the 21st century while many young Americans who are graduating today are going to be left behind.

Even highly skilled workers are having problems these days.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Here's pretty recent median weekly earnings from BLS, you can pretty easily extrapolate them to median yearly income and see it's nowhere close to $100k for BS holders.

Unless you're a woman. Then you make $30K/yr. With a PhD.

 

[werepossum]

I can't recall meeting a single liberal person who believes anything even remotely approaching that what people earn belongs to everyone.

The reason we have such a hard time finding common ground is because we do lack a common understanding of the world. It just so happens that problem stems from you having a fundamentally insane view of what people on the left believe that lacks even a passing relationship with reality. (I'm quite sure if you asked GTB if he believed money belonged to everyone he would say no, for example)

It's baffling to see someone who apparently has enough self awareness to diagnose that he and others are seeing things differently, but has no clue that his own crazy thoughts are the problem. It's just delusions piled on top of delusions.

You'll have to explain how you don't see money as belonging to everyone, yet still feel entitled to seize however much of it you wish. Those two things do not jive.

McDonalds no, the franchise owner maybe.

Margins are thin and McDonalds has tightened the belt and made them sell items at or even below cost like when the McDouble was $0.99.

People just assume that anyone owning a business has money to burn. In reality the restaurant business in particular operates on razor thin margins and by far most non-franchised restaurants fail.

When it comes to living people will kill others to do so. So, you can push the blame around all you want, and try to point fingers at who should be responsible for making sure that those people don't get desperate enough to start killing but ultimately you, I, and those fast food franchises all have our heads in that same noose. History has taught us that your let them eat cake philosophy leads to the guillotine.

Part of the problem is that both sides are set on demonizing the other sides, as seen in your post. You don't actually give a description of the two viewpoints, you instead decide to lampoon one side's views in order to make yours look more reasonable. This is the echo chamber. You are not even willing to look at the two sides reasonably because you are too invested in being right.

A more accurate description of the two sides differentiating view would be that both sides agree that money is a method of distributing a society's resources, but the right thinks that resources belong to those that are able to take them, mostly without regard of how that is accomplished. The left believe that everyone should be given enough resources to survive with some level of comfort, and that the remainder of the resources should be allowed to be captured by who ever can, mostly without regard of how that is accomplished.

I don't have any problem with your description other than you assuming that mine is invalid. It's all well and good to say that people should be "given enough resources to survive with some level of comfort", but government has nothing it does not first seize from someone else. To make that seizure requires a belief that government (a.k.a. everyone) has an inherent right to that money. That isn't even a controversial belief, since the right agrees. Only the amount of that entitlement is in question. The right believes that government has the right to confiscate from all of us what is required to run government, to do the things we can't do for ourselves and which the private sector is unable or just not motivated to do. The left believes that government has the right to confiscate from all of us whatever is desired. Thus my statement about the left believing that money earned actually belongs to everyone. This is redistribution; it's a point that you guys hammer over and over and over, so you shouldn't be surprised when we notice. I'm not demonizing the left, just pointing it out.

 

[Exterous]

If 17 cents is going to break McDonald's backs they have worse problems than minimum wage.

It might be worth your while to look at the incredible price pressure fast food chains are under. Cost of food is up, dollar menu prices force profits down and now wages are going up a lot faster for stores that this applies to

Interestingly enough the article you referenced convienetly left out the second part of the study's finding:

The purpose of this paper was to examine the effect that higher wages and health-care benefits have on costs and prices in limited-service restaurants. In order to compensate for higher wages, prices would have to increase between 4% and 25% and/or product size would have to be scaled back between 12% and 70%. With tax credits that are available in the next few years, the Affordable Care Act will have minimal effect on limited-service restaurants with few than 25 FTEs. The extent to which higher wages and more benefits will help ameliorate turnover must be balanced with the cost of turnover and the potential effect on sales.

https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2015/Q3/study-raising-wages-to-15-an-hour-for-limited-service-restaurant-employees-would-raise-prices-4.3-percent.html

The cited range for both is quite large so I suspect there is much more involved than just a 4.3% increase. If anyone can find the actual study to read I would be interested in a link