Paradigm Lost: The Rise of U6

[CycloWizard]

If a person is older or untrainable and unable to keep up with the pace of economic change via re-education, lives in a country where X amount is required to stay alive and you invent a machine that makes his labor worthless, or you send his work to a place where X is a high wage, and thus you deprive him of his capacity to stay alive, does he have the right to kill you for his murder? I think he will think so and as things go further down hill I think he will.

If you can't learn to do anything more complex than I can program a computer to do, then you are barely a person: you are an automaton. If your capacity to stay alive is dependent on being an automaton, then you were never really alive to begin with. If my improving productivity through automation improves the lives of a million people who can now afford something they could never afford previously, I am still evil in your eyes because my machine replaced an unskilled laborer's job. Instead, we should all toil away on subsistence farms so that we all have mindless labor to keep us occupied day in and day out. We'll all die when we're 40 and have a terrible quality of life, but at least we won't have to use our brains, strive to better ourselves, or worry about what we'll eat. Unless, of course, there's a draught, a flood, an insect infestation, or any other problems that are relatively easily addressed in a society with technology. If this hellhole is your paradise, there are plenty of places in the world where you can have it. The nice thing about being an American is that you're free to depart to any of them at any time.

 

[CycloWizard]

Articles of faith. Everyone is not capable of everything. Some people are ill suited to certain jobs through no fault of their own. Further, there are few jobs that absolutely have to be done in America and those that require physical prescense can be done with imported help.

Ah, so it is the fault of the Vietnamese worker that the American worker is no more qualified, yet wants 100x the wage to perform the same task?

Essentially, you are advocating that we maintain a first world country with first world prices yet compete with the third world on labor. Something has to give and it'll be the living standards of the American middle class and the very first world nature of our country.

I'm not advocating any such thing. I'm simply telling you what is reality. You are free to stick your fingers in your ear and pretend you won't be affected by it, but it is what it is. I have little doubt that the standard of living will decline in the US for the very reasons I stated. We have tried to reward stupidity and we will now reap the benefits of that policy.

 

[Moonbeam]

I didn't find anyone in the old East who thought capitalism was so bad when I was there in March. When was the last time you were there and met a bunch of these selfish assholes who want to make something of and for themselves rather than being the property of their government? The teenaged girl who served me at Subway was so happy to be speaking English rather than Russian that she gave me a free sandwich. I guess the fond memories you have of communism aren't as memorable for the people who actually experienced it first hand.

Dear CW, My point is that I don't base science or truth on anecdotal evidence provided by you. What you failed again to do is tell me how the move to greater Capitalism is driving the German economic engine to its current level of success. What are these moves to greater Capitalism? I am just asking you to stop saying stuff as fact without any facts to back it up.

The girl you spoke to was the beneficiary of tax money flowing from West Germany to East, money those poor bastard West Germans decided themselves they would pay, like the good socialist brothers they were, eh?

 

[CycloWizard]

Dear CW, My point is that I don't base science or truth on anecdotal evidence provided by you. What you failed again to do is tell me how the move to greater Capitalism is driving the German economic engine to its current level of success. What are these moves to greater Capitalism? I am just asking you to stop saying stuff as fact without any facts to back it up.

The girl you spoke to was the beneficiary of tax money flowing from West Germany to East, money those poor bastard West Germans decided themselves they would pay, like the good socialist brothers they were, eh?

Yes, you base truth on your own twisted view of reality void of any injection of reality. You state things as fact even though you lack even anecdotal evidence to back it up. Further, you lack the basic understanding of reality necessary to understand that moving money from one part of the country to the other does not increase the GDP of the entire country in a positive direction. If you want to read up on Germany's changes to education and healthcare, I highly recommend utilizing the evil technology known as the internet to find some information.

 

[Moonbeam]

CycloWizard: If you can't learn to do anything more complex than I can program a computer to do, then you are barely a person: you are an automaton.

M: That just speaks to your lack of programming talent.

CW: If your capacity to stay alive is dependent on being an automaton, then you were never really alive to begin with.

M: Which is why I maintain you are emotionally dead. You think linearly ok but you lack holistic empathy, in my opinion, the result of authoritarian moralism childhood training.

CW: If my improving productivity through automation improves the lives of a million people who can now afford something they could never afford previously, I am still evil in your eyes because my machine replaced an unskilled laborer's job.

M: If, always if, and if it kills all the life in the sea or puts everybody out of work? Lots of ways to play if.

CW: Instead, we should all toil away on subsistence farms so that we all have mindless labor to keep us occupied day in and day out. We'll all die when we're 40 and have a terrible quality of life, but at least we won't have to use our brains, strive to better ourselves, or worry about what we'll eat. Unless, of course, there's a draught, a flood, an insect infestation, or any other problems that are relatively easily addressed in a society with technology. If this hellhole is your paradise, there are plenty of places in the world where you can have it. The nice thing about being an American is that you're free to depart to any of them at any time.

M: Why move when you are bringing it here.

But where's my answer to how the German economic success is predicated on it becoming more Capitalistic?

And don't stand in the draught, you'll catch cold.

 

[SammyJr]

Ah, so it is the fault of the Vietnamese worker that the American worker is no more qualified, yet wants 100x the wage to perform the same task?

Is it the fault of the American worker that he was born in a first world country where things cost 100x as much as they do in Vietnam?

I'm not advocating any such thing. I'm simply telling you what is reality. You are free to stick your fingers in your ear and pretend you won't be affected by it, but it is what it is. I have little doubt that the standard of living will decline in the US for the very reasons I stated. We have tried to reward stupidity and we will now reap the benefits of that policy.

Its only reality because our politicans don't have the courage to take on the Free Trade religion and Big Business. There are billions of people who don't live in the United States. They can create their own Middle Class without needing the sacrifice of millions of Americans.

 

[Moonbeam]

Yes, you base truth on your own twisted view of reality void of any injection of reality. You state things as fact even though you lack even anecdotal evidence to back it up. Further, you lack the basic understanding of reality necessary to understand that moving money from one part of the country to the other does not increase the GDP of the entire country in a positive direction. If you want to read up on Germany's changes to education and healthcare, I highly recommend utilizing the evil technology known as the internet to find some information.

Thanks, I just googled my argument and found I was right. You can check it out yourself.

You are so stupidly linear in your thinking that you thought the West moved a bunch of gold from a Western to an Eastern bank like the Marshall Plan buried American dollars in German soil. When you are as preposterously stupid as you are why make any claims you can think. Remember, you can't design a machine that improves life because it will take money and that money will just rot there in the machine. Just give the money to the poor directly. Hehe

 

[yllus]

The pace of innovation is unflinching and unstoppable - no policy put in place to slow it down will ever be effective. That much is a given.

The issue here seems to be the perception in first world societies that all of us as a whole should go upwards and onwards - even if some portion of the population does not attempt to keep ahead the curve and seek employment in hard-to-outsource markets. Even those nominally trained for those markets often don't continue to learn and upgrade their skills and then wonder why they are being left behind.

We seem to be at a place in man's history, a time where intercontinental travel is cheap, automation is hitting its stride, and energy/natural resources are still plentiful, where it is dawning on all of us that this is not the case. No longer is American, Canadian or European citizenship guarantee enough of lifetime employment. You've got to realize that industries that do not challenge the mind in any way are extremely susceptible to displacement overseas (or to automation).

Income inequality is exacerbating the issue, most often framed by the extreme multiple of a CEO's salary as compared to his lowest level worker. The most immediate policy action to take would be to address things like this. Past that, possibly mandate a frank discussion of, "What will the area I want to be employed in look like in ten years? Twenty years?" as part of later levels of high schools and universities. Forcing people to consider their future, even if just for one week in school, might help significantly.

 

[Moonbeam]

Is it the fault of the American worker that he was born in a first world country where things cost 100x as much as they do in Vietnam?



Its only reality because our politicans don't have the courage to take on the Free Trade religion and Big Business. There are billions of people who don't live in the United States. They can create their own Middle Class without needing the sacrifice of millions of Americans.

America is like a wealth catalyst machine, like yeast in beer where the yeast was our system of personal freedom and the beer was the wealth it generated, the purpose for the system. But what we did was turn our attention from drinking of beer to the worship of the yeast that creates it. So we poured our beer into billions of gallons of water on the theory the yeast would multiply.

 

[Moonbeam]

The pace of innovation is unflinching and unstoppable - no policy put in place to slow it down will ever be effective. That much is a given.

The issue here seems to be the perception in first world societies that all of us as a whole should go upwards and onwards - even if some portion of the population does not attempt to keep ahead the curve and seek employment in hard-to-outsource markets. Even those nominally trained for those markets often don't continue to learn and upgrade their skills and then wonder why they are being left behind.

We seem to be at a place in man's history, a time where intercontinental travel is cheap, automation is hitting its stride, and energy/natural resources are still plentiful, where it is dawning on all of us that this is not the case. No longer is American, Canadian or European citizenship guarantee enough of lifetime employment. You've got to realize that industries that do not challenge the mind in any way are extremely susceptible to displacement overseas (or to automation).

Income inequality is exacerbating the issue, most often framed by the extreme multiple of a CEO's salary as compared to his lowest level worker. The most immediate policy action to take would be to address things like this. Past that, possibly mandate a frank discussion of, "What will the area I want to be employed in look like in ten years? Twenty years?" as part of later levels of high schools and universities. Forcing people to consider their future, even if just for one week in school, might help significantly.

In the unconscious of all these rats in their wheels is a cave man with a club. From a cave man I expect cave man behavior especially when those cave men join club clubs.

 

[CycloWizard]

...

Ah, so anything I say is incorrect and everything you say is automatically correct because only you think correctly. I am wrong because I think with my brain, which allows reality to enter my thought process. You are right because you think with your vagina and it tells you that every person should be a slave to his physical needs rather than using his brain to better the plight of himself and everyone around him.

 

[CycloWizard]

Is it the fault of the American worker that he was born in a first world country where things cost 100x as much as they do in Vietnam?

I never said it was anyone's fault - only that it was reality. I'm sorry that you can't see the distinction.

Its only reality because our politicans don't have the courage to take on the Free Trade religion and Big Business. There are billions of people who don't live in the United States. They can create their own Middle Class without needing the sacrifice of millions of Americans.

The protectionist policies of the past are the cause of the current problems. They simply slowed down the onset of reality.

 

[Moonbeam]

Ah, so anything I say is incorrect and everything you say is automatically correct because only you think correctly. I am wrong because I think with my brain, which allows reality to enter my thought process. You are right because you think with your vagina and it tells you that every person should be a slave to his physical needs rather than using his brain to better the plight of himself and everyone around him.

You poor stupid imbecilic brain dead idiot who, when he thinks of reality comes up only with vaginas, because, well, being authoritarian sexually repressed, that what you really have on your mind. You are wrong because you think with your dick, not your mind. And I'm all for bettering the plight of everybody around me but I don't have your astounding arrogance to think I know for sure what better really is. And did I mention you're dumber than you think. Hehe. You want to better the plight of your fellow pilgrim, invent a plastic vagina you can't tell from the real thing.

PS: You will know I'm right. Just check it out on the internet. You can find this thread where I said so.

 

[CycloWizard]

You poor stupid imbecilic brain dead idiot who, when he thinks of reality comes up only with vaginas, because, well, being authoritarian sexually repressed, that what you really have on your mind. You are wrong because you think with your dick, not your mind. And I'm all for bettering the plight of everybody around me but I don't have your astounding arrogance to think I know for sure what better really is. And did I mention you're dumber than you think. Hehe. You want to better the plight of your fellow pilgrim, invent a plastic vagina you can't tell from the real thing.

PS: You will know I'm right. Just check it out on the internet. You can find this thread where I said so.

But the internets are evil technology! The telegraph made all of those poor Pony Express riders unemployed... Just think what the internets have done do the rest of us!!!1! Technology is evil, communism is good, and we're all better off breaking our backs doing manual labor to avoid change. Oh, and I am the one who is a poor stupid imbecilic brain dead idiot. Got it. :thumbsup:

 

[Moonbeam]

But the internets are evil technology! The telegraph made all of those poor Pony Express riders unemployed... Just think what the internets have done do the rest of us!!!1! Technology is evil, communism is good, and we're all better off breaking our backs doing manual labor to avoid change. Oh, and I am the one who is a poor stupid imbecilic brain dead idiot. Got it. :thumbsup:

Yes, and you have it rather badly as a matter of fact, you Nazi.

 

[SammyJr]

I never said it was anyone's fault - only that it was reality. I'm sorry that you can't see the distinction.

Yet you have sympathy for the guy in Vietnam but none for the Ameircan.

The protectionist policies of the past are the cause of the current problems. They simply slowed down the onset of reality.

How do you figure?

The problem (for the Middle Class, anyway) is that as a nation, we embraced the Free Trade Religion and gave up millions of good, middle class jobs in favor of shitty Wal-mart jobs, more social service spending, and cheap Chinese made crap. And now the Free Trade Gods and their followers tell us that this the way it ought to be. Sad.

There are a billion Chinese. They have natural resources. They have plenty of engineering and scientific talent. Why do Americans have to suffer when they're more than capable of building their own Middle Class?

 

[CycloWizard]

Yet you have sympathy for the guy in Vietnam but none for the Ameircan.

Maybe you can understand it this way. If I tell you that 2+3=5, does that mean I lack sympathy for 4, or does it just mean that 2+3=5?

How do you figure?

The problem (for the Middle Class, anyway) is that as a nation, we embraced the Free Trade Religion and gave up millions of good, middle class jobs in favor of shitty Wal-mart jobs, more social service spending, and cheap Chinese made crap. And now the Free Trade Gods and their followers tell us that this the way it ought to be. Sad.

There are a billion Chinese. They have natural resources. They have plenty of engineering and scientific talent. Why do Americans have to suffer when they're more than capable of building their own Middle Class?

So what is your solution? You think if you stick your head in the sand that progress will just stop? That, all of a sudden, our uneducated population of idiots will continue to drive the economic growth that makes their standard of living sustainable, despite being replaceable by a machine? You are arguing with reality, which is an argument you'll lose every time. You seem to think that my pointing this out is the same as my causing it or supporting it.

 

[sandorski]

What's funny about every single one of those countries (except somewhat Canada) is that they are what Americans would consider "socialist" countries. All of them have high taxes, all of them have massive labor unions, all of them have large labor bureacracies.

None of them run huge goverment deficits, relatively speaking. None of them had massive run ups in credit for private debt, although many did buy into the US housing bubble.

germany is known for automation and engineering work. They are also known for high taxes. Yet, somehow, they've managed to weather this downturn probably the best out of any Western country. This is contrary to OP's entire article.

When will people get the point that supply side economics has failed. Utterly. Low taxation does not equate to full employment and perpetual growth.

Which country is doing it wrong?

I don't think they'll ever get it. The Ideologues are too blind, the Voting Public simply doesn't have the attention Span to care beyond the phrase "Tax Cut"(woohoo).

 

[SammyJr]

So what is your solution? You think if you stick your head in the sand that progress will just stop?

Offshoring and the decline of the American Middle Class is progress? Reducing the United States to a small group of absurdly wealthy aristocrats and an army of impoverished rabble is progress?

That, all of a sudden, our uneducated population of idiots will continue to drive the economic growth that makes their standard of living sustainable, despite being replaceable by a machine?

So is the Vietnamese guy doing manufacturing more educated than an American factory worker? Are the overseas factories in a given industry more advanced than the American factories? Or is it just that you can pay the Vietnamese guy 1% of what an American would earn, work him to death, pollute his village, and get away with it?

I don't think that's progress, either.

In any case, there are more Americans with college degrees than ever before. We're plenty educated, but there's no place to go for many of them.

You are arguing with reality, which is an argument you'll lose every time. You seem to think that my pointing this out is the same as my causing it or supporting it.

I agree that this is the current reality. Why can't it change to something better for those of us who aren't absurdly rich?

I really don't get how you can equate automation and offshoring. The only real similarity is that they have the potential to reduce costs. Let's compare:

Automation: Someone has to design, build, and maintain the systems. Wages are higher because the work requires expertise. This design expertise can potentially be exported to other countries who are looking to improve their standards of living.

Offshoring to cheap labor: The work is the same, but shifted to a cheaper part of the world. No new American jobs are created and the ranks of the unemployed grow. Jobs are created overseas, but because of the nature of offshoring, there are no labor or environmental standards. Workers are not paid enough to create a Middle Class because the company would just move to another more desperate location.

My solution is for our Government to put Americans first for a change. Make a thriving Middle Class the top priority. Make manufacturing in the United States the perferred choice for goods sold to American customers. Make things like foreign technical support a very expensive proposition for companies looking to do business here. Make companies with foreign manufacturing pay for access to American markets.

 

[sandorski]

Forgive Cyclo(and the others of his kind), he's got his and that's all that matters.

 

[ShawnD1]

I don't think the mass of humanity will tolerate a situation where .1% of the population controls 99% of the wealth

Honestly, I don't really mind rich people controlling everything as long as I have a comfortable life. As long as I have good food, running water, reliable power, reliable employment, and reliable housing, they can do whatever they want. If that shit goes south, it's revolution time.

 

[theevilsharpie]

I agree that this is the current reality. Why can't it change to something better for those of us who aren't absurdly rich?

Because the market doesn't work that way.

Companies exist for one thing and one thing only: to make as much money as possible. The fact that corporations are shying away from employing a larger and larger segment of the our workforce should send be sending a clear signal to the US government and everyone in the US workforce that changes need to be made to increase our competitiveness, but as this thread clearly demonstrates, both entities are more than content covering their ears and screaming for the return of an economy that's never coming back.

If we want to improve our situation, we, as a workforce, need to increase our productivity or decrease our costs. The US is no longer an industrial monopoly, and we can no longer afford to be uncompetitive with other nations.

My solution is for our Government to put Americans first for a change. Make a thriving Middle Class the top priority.

OK. How would you go about doing that?

Make manufacturing in the United States the perferred choice for goods sold to American customers.

And how would you go about doing that?

Make things like foreign technical support a very expensive proposition for companies looking to do business here.

And how would you go about doing that?

Make companies with foreign manufacturing pay for access to American markets.

For the most part, they already do.

Forgive Cyclo(and the others of his kind), he's got his and that's all that matters.

Cyclo is dead on.

 

[sandorski]

Cyclo is dead on.

Negative.

 

[yllus]

I really don't get how you can equate automation and offshoring. The only real similarity is that they have the potential to reduce costs.

Reducing costs is really all that matters from the businesses' POV, but your assertion that no jobs are created due to offshoring is inaccurate. There are plenty of consultant firms and staff positions created to manage overseas labour.

Also, who says that it'll be U.S. jobs that are created to design, build and maintain automation systems?

My solution is for our Government to put Americans first for a change. Make a thriving Middle Class the top priority. Make manufacturing in the United States the perferred choice for goods sold to American customers. Make things like foreign technical support a very expensive proposition for companies looking to do business here. Make companies with foreign manufacturing pay for access to American markets.

I don't think that artificially inflating the cost of doing business in this way has worked for any nation, ever.

If you mandate that U.S. government agencies should prefer use of U.S. suppliers even if superior/cheaper service is available elsewhere, all you end up with is local companies that game the system and gouge your own government. Those companies usually even give up on being competitive overseas and loose the drive to innovate and improve - why bother? They've got a captive market at home.

I can't imagine how enforcing a law that makes use of foreign tech support would work in reality. What are you gaining here? The security of millions of jobs that can be done by anyone who can read a Choose Your Own Adventure book? In effect you've created an incentive for the people to languish in a go-nowhere job (they won't be too worried about job security).

Aside from stifling income inequality, I think the greatest advantage we in the first world have is our educational institutions. We shouldn't force everyone to get a college degree or anything like that, but a longer school year and more emphasis on what students will do once they leave the system should be made.

 

[theevilsharpie]

Negative.

Why?