Panera Bread makes non-statement re: guns in their stores

[QuantumPion]

How is a CCW holder hurt by by following the law and securing their weapon before entering a an establishment with clear and legally required signing? Is it a financial hardship? Is it an intellectual insult? Is it an emotional affront? What's the harm?

I dunno, why not ask congresswoman Suzanna Hupp regarding Luby's Shooting? The event which led to Texas legalizing shall-issue concealed carry in the first place?

The first victim was local veterinarian Michael Griffith, 48, who ran to the driver's side of the pickup truck to offer assistance to the driver after the truck crashed through the window. Hennard also approached 32-year-old Suzanna Hupp and her parents. Hupp reached for her .38 revolver in her purse, only to remember she had left it in her vehicle to comply with the law. Texas law at the time required that concealed carry was not allowed in "public places". Her father Al, 71, rushed at Hennard in an attempt to subdue him but was fatally shot in the chest. A short time later, as Hupp was escaping, her mother Ursula, 67, was shot in the head and killed as she cradled her wounded husband.

 

[z1ggy]

NYC as a whole is basically a no-CCW zone. (with limited exceptions) Needless to say, despite the city is apparently filled with defenseless patrons and potential armed criminals we have a lower crime rate than any big city in Texas.

If you don't want to go to a business that's fine, but there's no need for hyperbole.

Define "crime rate".

Not trying to start some ridiculous debate here, as I'm well aware of Texas' standing in violent gun death/violence, but I'm not sure if that correlates with just "crime" in general. Besides, the first two offenders of gun violence in the US are the two total opposites of one another when it comes to gun rights (CA & TX) so using the ability to carry or not carry can't show be shown with any correlation to crime, let alone gun crime.

If a guy comes up to me while I am walking down the street and robs me at knife-point... Is that a violent crime if I just hand him my wallet and he runs away?

 

[fskimospy]

Define "crime rate".

Not trying to start some ridiculous debate here, as I'm well aware of Texas' standing in violent gun death/violence, but I'm not sure if that correlates with just "crime" in general.

If a guy comes up to me while I am walking down the street and robs me at knife-point... Is that a violent crime if I just hand him my wallet and he runs away?

Yes, robbery is a violent crime.

No ridiculous debate needed, just saying that the biggest city in the US has a largely disarmed populace and has a pretty decent crime rate as well. You might be surprised how little you actually need guns to be safe.

 

[Nebor]

NYC as a whole is basically a no-CCW zone. (with limited exceptions) Needless to say, despite the city is apparently filled with defenseless patrons and potential armed criminals we have a lower crime rate than any big city in Texas.

If you don't want to go to a business that's fine, but there's no need for hyperbole.

Actually there are very few off-limits establishments in NYC (Or NY State) for those with a valid CCW permit. "No guns" signs do not carry the force of law in New York, and places that many other states prohibit firearms are not prohibited in New York (establishments that serve alcohol, amusement parks, churches, etc.)

 

[fskimospy]

Actually there are very few off-limits establishments in NYC (Or NY State) for those with a valid CCW permit. "No guns" signs do not carry the force of law in New York, and places that many other states prohibit firearms are not prohibited in New York (establishments that serve alcohol, amusement parks, churches, etc.)

And those valid CCW permits are extremely difficult to get, as you have to prove you have a special need. Most people don't qualify. This is what I was referring to.

 

[z1ggy]

Yes, robbery is a violent crime.

No ridiculous debate needed, just saying that the biggest city in the US has a largely disarmed populace and has a pretty decent crime rate as well. You might be surprised how little you actually need guns to be safe.

I think what matters much more than whether a city/state is liberal or conservative, is what type of people generally inhabit in.

If you look at the table in this link about gun violence it's impossible to say that strict gun laws make any difference. D.C. is #1 in murder and has extremely strict gun laws. However, the next group of them are much more lax on gun laws, leading one to conclude no meaningful thoughts in regards to gun law vs. violence.

However, when I personally look at this list, it tells me that most violence occurs in states that have more cities that are poor or run down, and/or areas that may contain a higher % of uneducated people in it.

This might sound bad, but I'd be very interested in seeing statistics of gun violence vs government programs. U of Mass did a study that showed domestic violence rates went up in households where welfare was collected.

 

[Nebor]

And those valid CCW permits are extremely difficult to get, as you have to prove you have a special need. Most people don't qualify. This is what I was referring to.

All you have to do is be rich or famous.

 

[fskimospy]

I think what matters much more than whether a city/state is liberal or conservative, is what type of people generally inhabit in.

If you look at the table in this link about gun violence it's impossible to say that strict gun laws make any difference. D.C. is #1 in murder and has extremely strict gun laws. However, the next group of them are much more lax on gun laws, leading one to conclude no meaningful thoughts in regards to gun law vs. violence.

However, when I personally look at this list, it tells me that most violence occurs in states that have more cities that are poor or run down, and/or areas that may contain a higher % of uneducated people in it.

This might sound bad, but I'd be very interested in seeing statistics of gun violence vs government programs. U of Mass did a study that showed domestic violence rates went up in households where welfare was collected.

The whole chain of causation thing is a really big problem when examining the impact of gun laws, as places with a lot of gun crime tend to enact tougher gun laws. I agree that finding what, if any effect there is from them is difficult. The same is true for government programs and domestic violence as it is more prevalent among the poor.

My point here was simply that the lack of an armed population does not necessarily mean a high crime area or a population that is preyed upon, as evidenced by NYC's low gun ownership rate combined with low crime.

 

[Nebor]

The whole chain of causation thing is a really big problem when examining the impact of gun laws, as places with a lot of gun crime tend to enact tougher gun laws. I agree that finding what, if any effect there is from them is difficult. The same is true for government programs and domestic violence as it is more prevalent among the poor.

My point here was simply that the lack of an armed population does not necessarily mean a high crime area or a population that is preyed upon, as evidenced by NYC's low gun ownership rate combined with low crime.

NYC also has one of the highest law enforcement per capita rates in the country. It's clear when you sort that list by officers per 10k that all of the cities with the most officers per capita have very low crime rates. In order: Washington DC, Newark, Baltimore, Chicago, Philadelphia and New York City. So in essence, these places do have an armed population, but they have badges.

 

[z1ggy]

The whole chain of causation thing is a really big problem when examining the impact of gun laws, as places with a lot of gun crime tend to enact tougher gun laws. I agree that finding what, if any effect there is from them is difficult. The same is true for government programs and domestic violence as it is more prevalent among the poor.

My point here was simply that the lack of an armed population does not necessarily mean a high crime area or a population that is preyed upon, as evidenced by NYC's low gun ownership rate combined with low crime.

Yep, you're right. Which is why I say everybody should be able to have CCW if they choose to. I hate the "may issue" crap. Why is a DA or ex cop more qualified to handle a firearm than somebody like me who probably goes to the range more than they do. Why do they get the added security and I don't?

 

[z1ggy]

NYC also has one of the highest law enforcement per capita rates in the country. It's clear when you sort that list by officers per 10k that all of the cities with the most officers per capita have very low crime rates. In order: Washington DC, Newark, Baltimore, Chicago, Philadelphia and New York City. So in essence, these places do have an armed population, but they have badges.

Wha??

DC and Baltimore have extremely high crime rates. Did you click the link I provided?

 

[alzan]

I'm covered by 46.15 champ.

And? 46.15 applies to a very limited number of people; certainly not all of the CCW holders in Texas, much less the whole country.

Also, why would anyone believe or be compelled by your previous link? People have been known to lie or misrepresent themselves when responding to questionnaires or surveys; in similar fashion to "just ignore the signs" as you stated.

You're right. It would prevent a CCW holder like me from entering, due to the fact I'll never conduct any business there. The only places I go where I don't bring my concealed firearm are places like post offices, courthouses, etc that are federal buildings that I have no choice but to enter when I need to.

Like I said, businesses have the right to deny people from carrying on their premise. But all that does is stop the honest folks from coming in, leaving the only people in there to be defenseless patrons and potential armed criminals.

I'm sure most businesses will get along just fine without your patronage.

Ah yes, the old "there's a criminal in every street alley, in every business private or public, waiting to spring on the defenseless" meme. So in the millions of retail outlets, small businesses, restaurants, etc. across this country there's a robbery (strong arm or otherwise), shooting, et al every day? There's a potential for such but the reality is it's an incredibly small percentage.

Reminds me of "the sky is falling, the sky is falling"

 

[Nebor]

And? 46.15 applies to a very limited number of people; certainly not all of the CCW holders in Texas, much less the whole country.

Also, why would anyone believe or be compelled by your previous link? People have been known to lie or misrepresent themselves when responding to questionnaires or surveys; in similar fashion to "just ignore the signs" as you stated.

I was responding to your personal attacks on me as a rude individual without regard for private property rights.

I would assume people would believe my previous link since it's produced by the Texas Department of Public Safety, and in no way relies on questionnaires or surveys.

 

[fskimospy]

NYC also has one of the highest law enforcement per capita rates in the country. It's clear when you sort that list by officers per 10k that all of the cities with the most officers per capita have very low crime rates. In order: Washington DC, Newark, Baltimore, Chicago, Philadelphia and New York City. So in essence, these places do have an armed population, but they have badges.

Either you're reading that table incorrectly or you don't know what crime stats in the US look like...

Every city you mentioned with the exception of NYC has not only higher crime than the US average, but MUCH higher crime than average. I mean did you really think Baltimore was a bastion of low crime?

You just defeated your own point.

 

[Zargon]

Wha??

DC and Baltimore have extremely high crime rates. Did you click the link I provided?

looks like all the shitty places to live have lots of cops.......

 

[alzan]

I was responding to your personal attacks on me as a rude individual without regard for private property rights.

I would assume people would believe my previous link since it's produced by the Texas Department of Public Safety, and in no way relies on questionnaires or surveys.

You're right, I got caught up in the issue. My apologies.

Unfortunately your link doesn't really refute my original post; it doesn't cover CCW holders in Texas who are not covered under 46.15. A couple of posters in this thread have claimed to carry into businesses with proper signage; extrapolate that to CCW holders across the country and you have a significant number of CCW's who willingly break the law, which was my original point.

 

[z1ggy]

And? 46.15 applies to a very limited number of people; certainly not all of the CCW holders in Texas, much less the whole country.

Also, why would anyone believe or be compelled by your previous link? People have been known to lie or misrepresent themselves when responding to questionnaires or surveys; in similar fashion to "just ignore the signs" as you stated.



I'm sure most businesses will get along just fine without your patronage.

Ah yes, the old "there's a criminal in every street alley, in every business private or public, waiting to spring on the defenseless" meme. So in the millions of retail outlets, small businesses, restaurants, etc. across this country there's a robbery (strong arm or otherwise), shooting, et al every day? There's a potential for such but the reality is it's an incredibly small percentage.

Reminds me of "the sky is falling, the sky is falling"

I understand the odds of ever needing to use a firearm are very low. But there is still a chance. There's ~ a 1/11M chance of getting bit by a shark while at the beach, but you still swim don't you?

 

[alzan]

I dunno, why not ask congresswoman Suzanna Hupp regarding Luby's Shooting? The event which led to Texas legalizing shall-issue concealed carry in the first place?

The first victim was local veterinarian Michael Griffith, 48, who ran to the driver's side of the pickup truck to offer assistance to the driver after the truck crashed through the window. Hennard also approached 32-year-old Suzanna Hupp and her parents. Hupp reached for her .38 revolver in her purse, only to remember she had left it in her vehicle to comply with the law. Texas law at the time required that concealed carry was not allowed in "public places". Her father Al, 71, rushed at Hennard in an attempt to subdue him but was fatally shot in the chest. A short time later, as Hupp was escaping, her mother Ursula, 67, was shot in the head and killed as she cradled her wounded husband.

Good example. Unfortunately it's all too easy to find one or two examples that may seem to justify the existence of the law. I would make an educated guess that securing your gun before entering an establishment with proper "No Guns Allowed" signage is not going to put you or others in harms way a large majority (+95%) of the time.

 

[fskimospy]

I understand the odds of ever needing to use a firearm are very low. But there is still a chance. There's ~ a 1/11M chance of getting bit by a shark while at the beach, but you still swim don't you?

Wouldn't the shark corollary to carrying a gun be that since there's a 1/11M (small) chance of getting attacked by a shark (robbed) you don't need to swim with (carry) a shark cage (gun)?

 

[Nebor]

You're right, I got caught up in the issue. My apologies.

Unfortunately your link doesn't really refute my original post; it doesn't cover CCW holders in Texas who are not covered under 46.15. A couple of posters in this thread have claimed to carry into businesses with proper signage; extrapolate that to CCW holders across the country and you have a significant number of CCW's who willingly break the law, which was my original point.

The link covers both CCW licensees and peace officers in separate columns. Criminality is lower among CCW licensees than police officers in Texas, Florida and New York.

I don't doubt that a good 10% of CCW holders ignore those signs wherever they go, but IMO that's a level of law breaking equivalent to speeding 5mph over the limit. Maybe not even that, since they likely have the best of intentions while doing it.

 

[Nebor]

Either you're reading that table incorrectly or you don't know what crime stats in the US look like...

Every city you mentioned with the exception of NYC has not only higher crime than the US average, but MUCH higher crime than average. I mean did you really think Baltimore was a bastion of low crime?

You just defeated your own point.

Aw shucks! :biggrin:

 

[z1ggy]

Wouldn't the shark corollary to carrying a gun be that since there's a 1/11M (small) chance of getting attacked by a shark (robbed) you don't need to swim with (carry) a shark cage (gun)?

Yes I suppose, but I took the view point that people still do something risky (in this case, carry a gun = swimming) despite the overall low odds that it turns into something much worse (shooting a person = bitten by a shark).

 

[Vic]

Could someone please show me where in the 2nd amendment that it guarantees a right to carry on someone else's private property without their consent?

 

[xBiffx]

Could someone please show me where in the 2nd amendment that it guarantees a right to carry on someone else's private property without their consent?

You're not going to find that in the 2nd amendment considering that its whole purpose is to not allow the federal government to infringe on the rights of the citizens to posses firearms. You'll find that in the constitution or laws of the state where the business is located.

 

[Nebor]

Could someone please show me where in the 2nd amendment that it guarantees a right to carry on someone else's private property without their consent?

It's mostly a smattering of state laws that place gun rights over private property rights.