Panera Bread makes non-statement re: guns in their stores

[Londo_Jowo]

The sign is Texas is legal and binding, getting caught carrying concealed in a place that has the 30.06 on the front door or window can result in getting ones CHL revoked.

Even though the pistol (Beretta PX4 Storm Sub-Compact) I use when carrying concealed is small enough that only a trained eye would know I'm carrying I would not go against the wishes of a business owner. In my mind it's all about respect and being responsible.

 

[alzan]

It was obviously sarcasm.

I'm trying to point out that while I have no real problems with businesses posting the correct legal signs outside their establishments to tell CCW holders to not bring in their firearms, that it's essentially pointless. Criminals intent on robbing the place will still bring in their concealed weapons, and CCW holders who are stubborn (and breaking the law) will still bring them in anyway.

The signs do nothing but stop the honest people who'd probably only use them in a back-against-the-wall type of life or death situation from carrying inside their stores. Thus, the signs really do nothing but hurt the people who actually follow the law.

That's at least the logic I follow.

I don't see how the sign is pointless; a sign is never going to stop a criminal from entering with a gun, the point of the signage is to prevent CCW holders from entering the premises while carrying. Those who are stubborn and are found to have entered while carrying will be duly cited and fined.

How is a CCW holder hurt by by following the law and securing their weapon before entering a an establishment with clear and legally required signing? Is it a financial hardship? Is it an intellectual insult? Is it an emotional affront? What's the harm?

The vast majority of them. I don't think I've ever had one of my CCW peers that I know ignore the law like that. It simply isn't worth it becoming an issue. I've been making that point in this entire thread.

Good to know that you and the CCW's you're acquainted with have never ignored that law. Unfortunately, you and your CCW peers you're acquainted with comprise an infinitesimally small percentage of the total CCW holders in this country. So the "vast majority of them", while close is somewhat inaccurate. If you'd care to post some verifiable and reliable statistics you're welcome to do so.

 

[WackyDan]

Unfortunately, you and your CCW peers you're acquainted with comprise an infinitesimally small percentage of the total CCW holders in this country. So the "vast majority of them", while close is somewhat inaccurate. If you'd care to post some verifiable and reliable statistics you're welcome to do so.

You are the one who claimed the vast majority of CCW holders would ignore signage. Where are your stats? The answer is you have none. There is no way of knowing from your perspective - which is one of someone who doesn't have a CCW and probably due to that knows relatively few if any CCW permit holders. You do the math... It seems I at least have some relative experience and associates to base my claim off of. You have none while demanding statistics that don't exist.

 

[Nebor]

I think you know that a criminal intent on robbing a Panera's or any other store will carry their gun in so I'll dismiss your statement as a poor attempt at sarcasm.

I agree that ultimately Panera should put the proper and required signage outside their establishments though I have my doubts as to what percentage of CCW holders the signage would actually deter. The request made by Panera's CEO was both PR and an attempt at appealing to the more reasonable percentage of CCW holders that don't need signs to tell them that their guns are not desired within the establishment(s).

Do you always respond in a negative manner to polite requests?

An enormous amount. They get named and shamed here in Texas. Alamo Drafthouse lost a huge PR war after putting up 30.06 signs and getting a ton of negative attention from the gun rights people.

 

[smackababy]

An enormous amount. They get named and shamed here in Texas. Alamo Drafthouse lost a huge PR war after putting up 30.06 signs and getting a ton of negative attention from the gun rights people.

Wouldn't the Alamo Draft House classify under the 51% law anyway? Unless, they don't make 51% of their profits from alcohol, but I find that hard to believe.

 

[PliotronX]

You are the one who claimed the vast majority of CCW holders would ignore signage. Where are your stats? The answer is you have none. There is no way of knowing from your perspective - which is one of someone who doesn't have a CCW and probably due to that knows relatively few if any CCW permit holders. You so the math... It seems I at least have some relative experience and associates to base my claim off of. You have none while demanding statistics that don't exist.

All the CCWs I know dont flaunt it either so thats double the numbers versus the zero alzan has.

 

[Nebor]

Wouldn't the Alamo Draft House classify under the 51% law anyway? Unless, they don't make 51% of their profits from alcohol, but I find that hard to believe.

They do not make most of their profits from alcohol. They're no longer posted with 30.06 or 51% signs, and TABC doesn't list them as a 51% establishment.

 

[smackababy]

They do not make most of their profits from alcohol. They're no longer posted with 30.06 or 51% signs, and TABC doesn't list them as a 51% establishment.

That is crazy. I figured they made more with the alcohol. But, it has been a while since I've been there. It was before they moved to the what used to be the Ritz I believe.

 

[alzan]

You are the one who claimed the vast majority of CCW holders would ignore signage. Where are your stats? The answer is you have none. There is no way of knowing from your perspective - which is one of someone who doesn't have a CCW and probably due to that knows relatively few if any CCW permit holders. You so the math... It seems I at least have some relative experience and associates to base my claim off of. You have none while demanding statistics that don't exist.

Actually I posted I had doubts as to what percentage of CCW holders would obey the signs; the "vast majority" to which you refer was your own post, #47.

So link up the stats; I'm willing to change my view if presented with verifiable and compelling facts. I don't change them because of "challenge" post by an anonymous internet blowhard.

An enormous amount. They get named and shamed here in Texas. Alamo Drafthouse lost a huge PR war after putting up 30.06 signs and getting a ton of negative attention from the gun rights people.

Another claim of "enormous amount".

All the CCWs I know don't flaunt it either so that's double the numbers versus the zero alzan has.

Again, you and your peers represent an infinitesimally small amount of the total CCW holders in the country.

 

[Gunslinger08]

Confronting people sounds like they really only have an issue with open carry.

While I support their right to do it, I don't understand why anyone would open carry. It just seems like a lot of hassle for no real gain over CCW.

 

[MrPickins]

Why not? It is my right to and law in NC that I can. Until they put signage up I am not potentially affront of any law. In fact, if you want to dissect things a bit more, the sign is a request, but has no legal bearing.

...snip...

As a corollary to my earlier post, just because it's legal doesn't make you less of a jerk for doing it.

The company made a statement that they would prefer their customers not carry in their store, so you go out of your way to make sure that you do? :\

 

[irishScott]

The sign is Texas is legal and binding, getting caught carrying concealed in a place that has the 30.06 on the front door or window can result in getting ones CHL revoked.

Even though the pistol (Beretta PX4 Storm Sub-Compact) I use when carrying concealed is small enough that only a trained eye would know I'm carrying I would not go against the wishes of a business owner. In my mind it's all about respect and being responsible.

Meh, for my part I see carrying as a service to both myself and anyone in my general vicinity. I and anyone around me are that much more secure for it, and I train towards that end. If someone around me is or would be merely vocally ungrateful about that, that's their problem. But odds are they won't be ungrateful because they won't know about it unless God forbid I'm forced to draw, in which case they'll probably be very grateful I was around, after the fact.

Now if there's a legally binding sign (or other legal barrier to carry) that changes things. I'm not going to risk, however small the odds, getting punished for doing the right thing. If someone is willing to threaten me with default legal action over a gun they'll likely never see, even if I use that gun to save their life/lives, that person/entity is an ass and my money and I will happily go elsewhere.

So in a nutshell I respect the law, not the opinions of ignorant shopkeepers.

 

[Nebor]

Actually I posted I had doubts as to what percentage of CCW holders would obey the signs; the "vast majority" to which you refer was your own post, #47.

So link up the stats; I'm willing to change my view if presented with verifiable and compelling facts. I don't change them because of "challenge" post by an anonymous internet blowhard.



Another claim of "enormous amount".



Again, you and your peers represent an infinitesimally small amount of the total CCW holders in the country.

Go nuts pal. Every state that compiles statistics on their CHL holders (primarily Florida, Texas and New York) has found CHL holders to be less likely to be arrested or charged with a crime than licensed peace officers.

The 30.06 site I linked you to has over 800,000 members. The fact that so many Texans would go to the trouble of registering for a site that only serves to list off limits establishments is pretty telling. Off limits signs don't cause people to ditch their weapons before they go in, they cause people not to go in that business at all.

Personally, I just ignore all the signs.

 

[WackyDan]

As a corollary to my earlier post, just because it's legal doesn't make you less of a jerk for doing it.

The company made a statement that they would prefer their customers not carry in their store, so you go out of your way to make sure that you do? :\

They should go out of their way to post it clearly on every property they own or lease. I'm not going to argue that point anymore.

There is nothing binding about what he said in an interview. It isn't posted on their web site, though before today I've never been to their web site. Doesn't matter anyway... The proper and accepted way is to post it at the entrance to their establishments. PERIOD.

I get it though. I'm a jerk for carrying concealed legally in my state where allowed by law. I've had a CCW in a total of four states now, gone through the training, the background checks. I get it. You are scared of all of us CCW holders but I can't imagine the brick you would shit if you knew how many of us happen to be in the same vicinity as you at any given moment as you are out shopping around.

 

[MrPickins]

They should go out of their way to post it clearly on every property they own or lease. I'm not going to argue that point anymore.

There is nothing binding about what he said in an interview. It isn't posted on their web site, though before today I've never been to their web site. Doesn't matter anyway... The proper and accepted way is to post it at the entrance to their establishments. PERIOD.

I get it though. I'm a jerk for carrying concealed legally in my state where allowed by law. I've had a CCW in a total of four states now, gone through the training, the background checks. I get it. You are scared of all of us CCW holders but I can't imagine the brick you would shit if you knew how many of us happen to be in the same vicinity as you at any given moment as you are out shopping around.

I happen to hold a CCW permit.

If I know it makes a friend uncomfortable for me to carry at their house, I will respect their wishes and leave it behind. I feel the same way about businesses.

Sure, if it's clearly marked you should (in TX, must) not carry, but if you are also well aware of the company's wishes, and you make it a point to go there while carrying, you're being rude, IMO. Nobody will know (if you're carrying properly), but it's still a rude thing to do.

If you disagree with the way they do business, how about you boycott them instead?

 

[Darwin333]

They don't want you carrying a gun in their stores. Just because they aren't going to confront you about it, doesn't mean you should be carrying a gun at a private business where it's not welcome.

I am very big on private property rights. You absolutely should have the right to tell me that I am not allowed to carry a gun on your property, wear hoodies, high heel shoes, yellow shirts or whatever the hell you so desire (within anti-discrimination law obviously). With that said, how the hell am I supposed to know that they don't welcome my gun, that they can not and will not know I have on me, unless they tell me?

I have carried a concealed gun into stores quite literally thousands of times. Not once has anyone ever said anything because its concealed. Some assholes like to be assholes and flaunt their guns around but every group has its assholes. Kick those assholes out and leave the rest of us, that you didn't even know about FFS, alone.

 

[alzan]

Go nuts pal. Every state that compiles statistics on their CHL holders (primarily Florida, Texas and New York) has found CHL holders to be less likely to be arrested or charged with a crime than licensed peace officers.

The 30.06 site I linked you to has over 800,000 members. The fact that so many Texans would go to the trouble of registering for a site that only serves to list off limits establishments is pretty telling. Off limits signs don't cause people to ditch their weapons before they go in, they cause people not to go in that business at all.

Personally, I just ignore all the signs.

So you're either an internet blowhard who posts while pounding his e-chest and stroking his e-boner, or a rude, arrogant asshole who wrongly believes your right to carry trumps personal or private property rights. Or both.

As I suspected.

 

[Nebor]

So you're either an internet blowhard who posts while pounding his e-chest and stroking his e-boner, or a rude, arrogant asshole who wrongly believes your right to carry trumps personal or private property rights. Or both.

As I suspected.

I'm covered by 46.15 champ.

 

[z1ggy]

I don't see how the sign is pointless; a sign is never going to stop a criminal from entering with a gun, the point of the signage is to prevent CCW holders from entering the premises while carrying. Those who are stubborn and are found to have entered while carrying will be duly cited and fined.

How is a CCW holder hurt by by following the law and securing their weapon before entering a an establishment with clear and legally required signing? Is it a financial hardship? Is it an intellectual insult? Is it an emotional affront? What's the harm?

You're right. It would prevent a CCW holder like me from entering, due to the fact I'll never conduct any business there. The only places I go where I don't bring my concealed firearm are places like post offices, courthouses, etc that are federal buildings that I have no choice but to enter when I need to.

Like I said, businesses have the right to deny people from carrying on their premise. But all that does is stop the honest folks from coming in, leaving the only people in there to be defenseless patrons and potential armed criminals.

 

[Nebor]

You're right. It would prevent a CCW holder like me from entering, due to the fact I'll never conduct any business there. The only places I go where I don't bring my concealed firearm are places like post offices, courthouses, etc that are federal buildings that I have no choice but to enter when I need to.

Like I said, businesses have the right to deny people from carrying on their premise. But all that does is stop the honest folks from coming in, leaving the only people in there to be defenseless patrons and potential armed criminals.

Several of us have explained this to him already. There's a reason that a massive, popular online database exists to list 30.06 posted establishments. It's not so that people can leave their guns outside when they go in, it's so that they don't go there at all. And occasionally it's so that a campaign can be launched to get those signs taken down.

 

[z1ggy]

Several of us have explained this to him already. There's a reason that a massive, popular online database exists to list 30.06 posted establishments. It's not so that people can leave their guns outside when they go in, it's so that they don't go there at all. And occasionally it's so that a campaign can be launched to get those signs taken down.

I see. I will need to look up these places for my state so I don't give the (assumed) idiot owners any of my money.

Edit: "30.06 database" generally only pops up results for TX. Is there a national one?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I see. I will need to look up these places for my state so I don't give the (assumed) idiot owners any of my money.

Edit: "30.06 database" generally only pops up results for TX. Is there a national one?

30.06 is a Texas statute.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/txstatutes/PE/7/30/30.06

TEX PE. CODE ANN. § 30.06 : Texas Statutes - Section 30.06: TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN

 

[fskimospy]

You're right. It would prevent a CCW holder like me from entering, due to the fact I'll never conduct any business there. The only places I go where I don't bring my concealed firearm are places like post offices, courthouses, etc that are federal buildings that I have no choice but to enter when I need to.

Like I said, businesses have the right to deny people from carrying on their premise. But all that does is stop the honest folks from coming in, leaving the only people in there to be defenseless patrons and potential armed criminals.

NYC as a whole is basically a no-CCW zone. (with limited exceptions) Needless to say, despite the city is apparently filled with defenseless patrons and potential armed criminals we have a lower crime rate than any big city in Texas.

If you don't want to go to a business that's fine, but there's no need for hyperbole.

 

[PliotronX]

NYC as a whole is basically a no-CCW zone. (with limited exceptions) Needless to say, despite the city is apparently filled with defenseless patrons and potential armed criminals we have a lower crime rate than any big city in Texas.

If you don't want to go to a business that's fine, but there's no need for hyperbole.

Wonder if NYPD is still cookin' the books.

 

[fskimospy]

Wonder if NYPD is still cookin' the books.

That's a well known problem among all police departments.