Palin: Iraq War And Alaska Gas Pipeline = "God's Will."

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Originally posted by: palehorse
ummm, I'm not on the same page as Palin, and I'm not a Christian myself, but how can you criticize someone for merely sticking to a very basic and peaceful tenet of their faith? Christians believe that everything is God's will and that God is omniscient.

Therefore, I'd expect the same from ANY Christian... especially while addressing crowds that are predominantly Christian.

As an Obama supporter myself, I don't think that it's a very good idea to harp on her adamant faith... *cough*Reverend Wright*cough*....

Wow, I honestly, truly, never expected to be on the same page as you. I stand corrected and take back my harsh things i said. However, while it's a very basic tenet of her faith, I'd hardly call any war peaceful.
And I still don't get how any true believer in any god can speak for them, they tend to have this all powerful, created everything, master of the universe aura around them. So, instead of expanding the universe or allowing some form of extraterrestrial travel to meet other 'intelligent' life, we're supposed to go to war?
Nah, I'll disagree with that.

Again, PH, I am really surprised we see eye to eye, but glad to see it.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Playmaker

Originally posted by: palehorse
ummm, I'm not on the same page as Palin, and I'm not a Christian myself, but how can you criticize someone for merely sticking to a very basic and peaceful tenet of their faith? Christians believe that everything is God's will and that God is omniscient.

Therefore, I'd expect the same from ANY Christian... especially while addressing crowds that are predominantly Christian.

As an Obama supporter myself, I don't think that it's a very good idea to harp on her adamant faith... *cough*Reverend Wright*cough*....

Uh, because it borders on insanity? I find it shocking that we could end up (again) with a leader that clearly makes decisions based on a superstitious belief in some "omniscient" being. We should be outgrowing this ridiculous phase of cultural development like most other developed nations. This is a disheartening step backward.

Please explain to me how this demonstrates Palin making a decision of some sort. As far as I can tell, she merely invoked God's name in her Church in an effort to make the people think positive about a potential development that they all wanted or needed in their local community.

I see nothing wrong with invoking prayer in her Church; and I hope, at some point in your own life, you'll stop being so judgmental of other peoples' belief systems.

Why the hate? WTF happened to the "Freedom of Religion"?!

As long as she leaves the preaching in the Church, and said preaching remains peaceful in nature, I don't see it as a problem at all.

I'm a Deist myself... does that alone make me "insane"?! Do you also believe hat all Muslims are insane just because most of them believe that everything is Allah's will and they pray several times a day?

You seem very hostile and close-minded for someone claiming to be so "enlightened"...

Originally posted by: Sheik Yerbouti
Again, PH, I am really surprised we see eye to eye, but glad to see it.

Remember, not everything is as black-and-white as it may appear on an internet forum... so I'm also glad that we can agree once in a blue moon! 😉

 

[Moonbeam]

McTraitor chose a dog catcher from nowhere because he values experience, and of course the judgment that it brings. But clowns will buy anything.

 

[XMan]

Abraham Lincoln prayed for God's guidance during the Civil War.

And of course, George Washington himself said:

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labour to subvert these great Pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man ought to respect and to cherish them."

I guess, by Harvey's standards those amazing men were right-wing lunatics.

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: JD50
Everything is God's will, and with the vast majority of the country being religious, this isn't a criticism that will win you guys many votes.

You are talking to the minority.

 

[ch33kym0use]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEMXaTktUfA

 

[Stoneburner]

Originally posted by: XMan
Abraham Lincoln prayed for God's guidance during the Civil War.

And of course, George Washington himself said:

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labour to subvert these great Pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man ought to respect and to cherish them."

I guess, by Harvey's standards those amazing men were right-wing lunatics.

Praying for Guidance during the civil war = praying for guidance during a messy divorce

Praying for an oil pipeline = praying for a bigger penis.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Stoneburner

Originally posted by: XMan
Abraham Lincoln prayed for God's guidance during the Civil War.

And of course, George Washington himself said:

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labour to subvert these great Pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man ought to respect and to cherish them."

I guess, by Harvey's standards those amazing men were right-wing lunatics.

Praying for Guidance during the civil war = praying for guidance during a messy divorce

Praying for an oil pipeline = praying for a bigger penis.

Did you ever stop to think that such a pipeline may have brought prosperity and security to the people in her Alaskan community? That perhaps they were made to feel better about the situation by Palin's comforting words and prayers?

Step outside your own seemingly narrow list of priorities for a minute and try to realize that not everyone wants/needs/prays for the same things.

 

[Stoneburner]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Stoneburner

Originally posted by: XMan
Abraham Lincoln prayed for God's guidance during the Civil War.

And of course, George Washington himself said:

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labour to subvert these great Pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man ought to respect and to cherish them."

I guess, by Harvey's standards those amazing men were right-wing lunatics.

Praying for Guidance during the civil war = praying for guidance during a messy divorce

Praying for an oil pipeline = praying for a bigger penis.

Did you ever stop to think that such a pipeline may have brought prosperity and security to the people in her Alaskan community? That perhaps they were made to feel better about the situation by Palin's comforting words and prayers?

Step outside your own seemingly narrow list of priorities for a minute and try to realize that not everyone wants/needs/prays for the same things.

Yes, and a larger penis would please your significant other And bring prosperity to your life!

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Stoneburner

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Stoneburner

Originally posted by: XMan
Abraham Lincoln prayed for God's guidance during the Civil War.

And of course, George Washington himself said:

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labour to subvert these great Pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man ought to respect and to cherish them."

I guess, by Harvey's standards those amazing men were right-wing lunatics.

Praying for Guidance during the civil war = praying for guidance during a messy divorce

Praying for an oil pipeline = praying for a bigger penis.

Did you ever stop to think that such a pipeline may have brought prosperity and security to the people in her Alaskan community? That perhaps they were made to feel better about the situation by Palin's comforting words and prayers?

Step outside your own seemingly narrow list of priorities for a minute and try to realize that not everyone wants/needs/prays for the same things.

Yes, and a larger penis would please your significant other And bring prosperity to your life!

I won't judge you for wishing or praying for one of those... good luck with that!

 

[bamx2]

I was on the fence on who to vote for until McCain (or his advisers) picked Palin . Religion is a private matter and there should be no place evangelicals in government . The Obama / Biden ticket gets my vote .

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: bamx2
I was on the fence on who to vote for until McCain (or his advisers) picked Palin . Religion is a private matter and there should be no place evangelicals in government . The Obama / Biden ticket gets my vote .

Just out of curiosity, why do you consider Palin's religion to be more public than Obama's?

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
dog catcher from nowhere

why do you insist on denigrating a community organizer from Hawaii like that?

I mean, dog catchers have actual responsibilities 😛

 

[BMW540I6speed]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: bamx2
I was on the fence on who to vote for until McCain (or his advisers) picked Palin . Religion is a private matter and there should be no place evangelicals in government . The Obama / Biden ticket gets my vote .

Just out of curiosity, why do you consider Palin's religion to be more public than Obama's?

Because that 's part of demographic that she is being marketed to by the GOP. Its front and center. It's not that Americans don't understand Palin as a religious zealot. I think most Christianist's feel (subconsciously, at least) that Christianity was attacked on 9/11, just as our response is interpreted by Muslims as a war against Islam.

We haven't had a really good religious war in a few hundred years, so the religious right are eager for the one they feel is being presented. We have already demonstrated our willingness to give up the Fourth Amendment to feel a bit safer, Palin, is their Warrior Princess - she's exactly what they want.

Jesus would probably rebuke people like this. In fact, in the 23rd chapter of Matthew, one will find those religious radicals of the same mindset. their hermeneutics and exegesis are warped.

Jesus gives us the choice of free will, but these people assert that they should decide what is right for mankind and free will is not on their agenda.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: XMan

Abraham Lincoln prayed for God's guidance during the Civil War.

And of course, George Washington himself said:

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labour to subvert these great Pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man ought to respect and to cherish them."

I guess, by Harvey's standards those amazing men were right-wing lunatics.

Then you really need to go home and practice guessing until you get better at it. 😛

Washington and Lincoln praying or hoping for some good turn of events of benefit to the nation is not the same as advocating imposing religious doctrine on the nation.

Washington and Lincon knew the the horrors of war, and neither of them started one, let alone starting one in the belief that it was a mission from their deity, and neither did they lie to the the American people about their reasons for doing so. Your Traitor In Chief, George W. Bush did all of that.

Bush: God Told Me to Invade Iraq

President 'revealed reasons for war in private meeting'
by Rupert Cornwell

President George Bush has claimed he was told by God to invade Iraq and attack Osama bin Laden's stronghold of Afghanistan as part of a divine mission to bring peace to the Middle East, security for Israel, and a state for the Palestinians.

The President made the assertion during his first meeting with Palestinian leaders in June 2003, according to a BBC series which will be broadcast this month.

The revelation comes after Mr Bush launched an impassioned attack yesterday in Washington on Islamic militants, likening their ideology to that of Communism, and accusing them of seeking to "enslave whole nations" and set up a radical Islamic empire "that spans from Spain to Indonesia". In the programmeElusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs, which starts on Monday, the former Palestinian foreign minister Nabil Shaath says Mr Bush told him and Mahmoud Abbas, former prime minister and now Palestinian President: "I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,' and I did."
.
.
(contines)

In the article linked and quoted in my OP, Sarah Palin says she believes the same:

ANCHORAGE, Alaska - Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin told ministry students at her former church that the United States sent troops to fight in the Iraq war on a "task that is from God."

Neither Washington nor Lincoln advocated teaching creationism in public schools. Sarah Palin does:

Sarah Palin on faith, life and creation

Posted by Michael Paulson August 29, 2008 12:20 PM
.
.
And in October of 2006, the Anchorage Daily News reported that Palin said the following about creationism at a debate:

• "Teach both. You know, don't be afraid of information....Healthy debate is so important and it's so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both.
  .
  .
  (continues)

• • 
    Someone forgot to tell her the "healthy debate" she's pimping was over long ago, and she and her ooga booga deity lost.
    
    She's entitled to believe in her own religious mystery oil, but she is NOT entitled to impose those beliefs on public policy, and she should NOT be allowed anywhere near a position of public trust that would enable her to do so.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Harvey
She's entitled to believe in her own religious mystery oil, but she is NOT entitled to impose those beliefs on public policy.

Please provide evidence that she has done so. And no, her invocations in church do not count...

Originally posted by: Harvey
Someone forgot to tell her the "healthy debate" she's pimping was over long ago, and she and her ooga booga deity lost.

I see nothing objectionable in her statement encouraging healthy debate of the two opposing beliefs... she even encourages the teaching of both, rather than one and not the other.

So what's the problem with that? Or, do you simply consider your beliefs superior to hers?

It's almost as though you'd object to ANY Christian ever becoming President or VP again. After all, Obama is just as adamant in his faith, or moreso... in fact, Obama also believes that everything is done according to God's will. So why do you not object to his sermons and invocations?

 

[Playmaker]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Playmaker

Originally posted by: palehorse
ummm, I'm not on the same page as Palin, and I'm not a Christian myself, but how can you criticize someone for merely sticking to a very basic and peaceful tenet of their faith? Christians believe that everything is God's will and that God is omniscient.

Therefore, I'd expect the same from ANY Christian... especially while addressing crowds that are predominantly Christian.

As an Obama supporter myself, I don't think that it's a very good idea to harp on her adamant faith... *cough*Reverend Wright*cough*....

Uh, because it borders on insanity? I find it shocking that we could end up (again) with a leader that clearly makes decisions based on a superstitious belief in some "omniscient" being. We should be outgrowing this ridiculous phase of cultural development like most other developed nations. This is a disheartening step backward.

Please explain to me how this demonstrates Palin making a decision of some sort. As far as I can tell, she merely invoked God's name in her Church in an effort to make the people think positive about a potential development that they all wanted or needed in their local community.

I see nothing wrong with invoking prayer in her Church; and I hope, at some point in your own life, you'll stop being so judgmental of other peoples' belief systems.

Why the hate? WTF happened to the "Freedom of Religion"?!

As long as she leaves the preaching in the Church, and said preaching remains peaceful in nature, I don't see it as a problem at all.

I'm a Deist myself... does that alone make me "insane"?! Do you also believe hat all Muslims are insane just because most of them believe that everything is Allah's will and they pray several times a day?

You seem very hostile and close-minded for someone claiming to be so "enlightened"...

Originally posted by: Sheik Yerbouti
Again, PH, I am really surprised we see eye to eye, but glad to see it.

Remember, not everything is as black-and-white as it may appear on an internet forum... so I'm also glad that we can agree once in a blue moon! 😉

Good questions, and I'll take the time to address them ... First off, Palin has "merely invoked" god's name repeatedly in her recent political history (although curiously this seems to have stopped the second she was tapped by McCain). It's clear she's an evangelist.

And I'm not "hating." I'm all for freedom of religion. Practice whatever you wish as long as you respect other's views. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean I can't seriously question the decision-making ability of someone that clearly believes in a literal interpretation of the bible, along with its stories of the supernatural. Respecting one's belief and freedom of religion is a far cry from wanting that individual to be making decisions that affect the entire country.

Unfortunately, as an American, it's probably inevitable that I'll be governed by christian-oriented politicians for the rest of my life (unless I move to Europe). At the very least I can hope to avoid being governed by the evangelist variety, which I find to be the most reprehensible.

Finally, to answer your last question in a roundabout way, I don't find islam or deism any more (or less) ridiculous than christianity or strong atheism, or even scientology. In essence, all views beyond theological noncognitivism are equally ridiculous.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Please provide evidence that she has done so. And no, her invocations in church do not count...

Go up one post, and follow the links.

Originally posted by: Harvey

Someone forgot to tell her the "healthy debate" she's pimping was over long ago, and she and her ooga booga deity lost.

I see nothing objectionable in her statement encouraging healthy debate of the two opposing beliefs... she even encourages the teaching of both, rather than one and not the other.[/quote]

And THAT is the problem. To put it as bluntly as possible, creationism and "creation science" are absolute 100% BULLSHIT! There are lots of thread on the subject. Use the forum search engine (if it happens to be working), or search for it on Google. I'm not going to side track the thread with a zillion links or reposts of quotes from previous threads.

So what's the problem with that? Or, do you simply consider your beliefs superior to hers?

No, I consider my understanding of science far superior to both her her understanding of the field and her beliefs when it comes to what should be tought in the science cirricula in public educational systems. If she wants to teach creationism and "creation science," it should be in a course on mythology or fantasy.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: Playmaker

Good questions, and I'll take the time to address them ... First off, Palin has "merely invoked" god's name repeatedly in her recent political history (although curiously this seems to have stopped the second she was tapped by McCain). It's clear she's an evangelist.

And I'm not "hating." I'm all for freedom of religion. Practice whatever you wish as long as you respect other's views. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean I can't seriously question the decision-making ability of someone that clearly believes in a literal interpretation of the bible, along with its stories of the supernatural. Respecting one's belief and freedom of religion is a far cry from wanting that individual to be making decisions that affect the entire country.

Unfortunately, as an American, it's probably inevitable that I'll be governed by christian-oriented politicians for the rest of my life (unless I move to Europe). At the very least I can hope to avoid being governed by the evangelist variety, which I find to be the most reprehensible.

Finally, to answer your last question in a roundabout way, I don't find islam or deism any more (or less) ridiculous than christianity or strong atheism, or even scientology. In essence, all views beyond theological noncognitivism are equally ridiculous.

:thumbsup:

Couldn't have said it better.

You are free to believe what you want to believe but when it comes to governing the United States of America it's not God's Will be done.

 

[palehorse]

How is Obama less of an "evangelical" than Palin? Like Palin, Obama invokes God's name on a regular basis, and his own church, even if you ignore the Wright issue, is itself pretty damn evangelical.

It just seems a bit hypocritical to me, and I'm an Obama supporter...

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Stoneburner

Originally posted by: XMan
Abraham Lincoln prayed for God's guidance during the Civil War.

And of course, George Washington himself said:

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labour to subvert these great Pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man ought to respect and to cherish them."

I guess, by Harvey's standards those amazing men were right-wing lunatics.

Praying for Guidance during the civil war = praying for guidance during a messy divorce

Praying for an oil pipeline = praying for a bigger penis.

Did you ever stop to think that such a pipeline may have brought prosperity and security to the people in her Alaskan community? That perhaps they were made to feel better about the situation by Palin's comforting words and prayers?

Step outside your own seemingly narrow list of priorities for a minute and try to realize that not everyone wants/needs/prays for the same things.

You should step out of this dogmatic view for one second and take a look at what it is you are actually defending. Freedom of religion does not mean that a politician can act on the will of their god, does it?

I'm glad you don't defend her saying that the Iraq war was gods will though.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: palehorse
How is Obama less of an "evangelical" than Palin? Like Palin, Obama invokes God's name on a regular basis, and his own church, even if you ignore the Wright issue, is itself pretty damn evangelical.

It just seems a bit hypocritical to me, and I'm an Obama supporter...

I just want to hear you say one thing out loud before we start talking about hypocrits.

Tell me you disagree with Palin that the Iraq war was gods will and tell me you think she's a fucking disgrace for saying that.

Because waging war in the name of a Christian God is just as stupid as waging war in the name of an Islamic God, both religions are peaceful when not perverted by brainwashed fools.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Because waging war in the name of a Christian God is just as stupid as waging war in the name of an Islamic God, both religions are peaceful when not perverted by brainwashed fools.

QFT! :thumbsup:

 

[skyking]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: palehorse
How is Obama less of an "evangelical" than Palin? Like Palin, Obama invokes God's name on a regular basis, and his own church, even if you ignore the Wright issue, is itself pretty damn evangelical.

It just seems a bit hypocritical to me, and I'm an Obama supporter...

I just want to hear you say one thing out loud before we start talking about hypocrits.

Tell me you disagree with Palin that the Iraq war was gods will and tell me you think she's a fucking disgrace for saying that.

Because waging war in the name of a Christian God is just as stupid as waging war in the name of an Islamic God, both religions are peaceful when not perverted by brainwashed fools.

Hear HEAR!

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: palehorse
How is Obama less of an "evangelical" than Palin? Like Palin, Obama invokes God's name on a regular basis, and his own church, even if you ignore the Wright issue, is itself pretty damn evangelical.

It just seems a bit hypocritical to me, and I'm an Obama supporter...

I just want to hear you say one thing out loud before we start talking about hypocrits.

Tell me you disagree with Palin that the Iraq war was gods will and tell me you think she's a fucking disgrace for saying that.

Because waging war in the name of a Christian God is just as stupid as waging war in the name of an Islamic God, both religions are peaceful when not perverted by brainwashed fools.

-I- don't personally believe that anything is "God's will" -- mainly because I don't belong to or believe in any organized religion -- but, since Palin is a Christian, and all Christians believe that everything is God's will, I don't hold it against her -- in fact, it's expected!

The sky is blue, water is wet, and all Christians believe that everything is God's will... see how that works? Does that make sense?

Now, if she were to come out and say something ridiculous like "Last night, God told me to raise taxes..." I would have an issue with that... but, thus far, nobody has shown me an example of her doing something like that -- at least, no more than Obama or any of the other Christian candidates.