Pakistani Coalition parties oppose use of force in Fata

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Fern

?We are committed to fight against extremists and terrorists who are destroying and making the world not safe,? he said. ?This is a war which is against Pakistan, and we'll fight for our own cause.?

How does one "fight" when they pledge no violence?

Are is that pldge mentioned in your OP already dropped?

Did the kidnappings take place in Afganistan (kabul) or Pakistan?

If in Afganistan, did the terrorists retreat back into Pakistan?

Please explain

Fern

It's not Kabul. It's Kabal somewhere in Swat, Pakistan. To bad it's one the most beautiful places in the world. 🙁

When you have no central authority this is what happens. More marvels of "democracy."

Where was the taliban born? Not in Afghanistan. Not in Pakistan. It was born in Saudi Arabia! The whole militant movement is caused by the wahabis. If you really want to put an end to this; invade Saudi Arabia! As much as the taliban are perceived to be a threat to the Americans they are a bigger threat to us; the shiahs. I still wont agree with how you are dealing with them. It's against the principles of Islam and humanity to recklessly bomb innocent civilians; intentionally or not.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
[-snip-
It's not Kabul. It's Kabal somewhere in Swat, Pakistan. To bad it's one the most beautiful places in the world. 🙁

Ahhh yes, my mistake.

And now, after looking more carefully, I see these appear to be two seperate news reports quoted together (in the same quote box). I didn't understand why Pakistan would urge patience on the part of the USA when when a domestic incident occured in Pakistan.

Fern

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
[-snip-
It's not Kabul. It's Kabal somewhere in Swat, Pakistan. To bad it's one the most beautiful places in the world. 🙁

Ahhh yes, my mistake.

And now, after looking more carefully, I see these appear to be two seperate news reports quoted together (in the same quote box). I didn't understand why Pakistan would urge patience on the part of the USA when when a domestic incident occured in Pakistan.

Fern

My bad. Should've made it more clear.

 

[palehorse]

Lemon Law, once again, pay attention...

"On Sunday, the chief of the militants in Swat Valley, Mullah Fazlullah, held a press conference at which he pronounced that except for Peshawar Valley, the entire North-West Frontier province is in the hands of the Taliban," regional expert Syed Saleem Shahzad wrote July 30 in Asia Times Online.

Source

 

[Lemon law]

I read your link palehorse, I still remain unconvinced that there are any positive developments anywhere. While the intent may be all good on both sides, the devil is always in the long term details.

While GWB&co seem to think that a top up strategy of governmental control is the answer, the insurgents always practice a bottom up strategy to win the hearts and minds of the people.

Leaders can be replaced, the people always endure.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I read your link palehorse, I still remain unconvinced that there are any positive developments anywhere. While the intent may be all good on both sides, the devil is always in the long term details.

While GWB&co seem to think that a top up strategy of governmental control is the answer, the insurgents always practice a bottom up strategy to win the hearts and minds of the people.

Leaders can be replaced, the people always endure.

You little Taliban supporter...

I'm sorry but all of your friends are going to die, the teenage girls are going to be safe in Afghanistan and Pakistan, there will be no torture of then like shoving a sharpened piece of wood up them or firing a gun inside of them.

I'm sorry Lemon, but i don't care where they are, in Afghanistan, in Pakistan i really don't give a shit, they will be dead, every last one of them.

I can promise you that this isn't a problem this time next year, and if the ISI doesn't stop, Pakistan can begin to count their numer of casualties now so they have enough caskets.

You don't get it and you never will, so shut the FUCK up on this issue.

Oh, and hi to everyone sane, you know who you are. 😉

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Militants take hostage 30 police, troops in Swat MINGORA, Pakistan, July 29 (Reuters): Pro-Taliban militants attacked a security post and took up to 30 hostages on Tuesday in Swat valley, officials said. Militants attacked a joint military-police post in the Kabal area, 35 km north-west of Mingora, and captured 30 police and paramilitary personnel, according to officials, though a militant spokesman put the number at 27. ?They were asked to surrender or face death, and they gave up,? militant spokesman Muslim Khan told Reuters. Two soldiers and a young girl were killed when security forces traded fire with militants around Kabal after the attack on the post. Security forces arrested several suspects in a search of the village. Militants also torched a health office in exchanged fire with police in Matta, one of the militants' stronghold, on Tuesday. (Posted @ 14:30 PST)

US needs to be patient, warns against 'unilateral' action: PM Gilani WASHINGTON, July 29 (AFP): Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani called on the United States not to act ?unilaterally? against militants in Pakistan. ?We are committed to fight against extremists and terrorists who are destroying and making the world not safe,? he said. ?This is a war which is against Pakistan, and we'll fight for our own cause.? Speaking to CNN television after seeing Bush, Gilani said the United States needs to be more patient and should not take unilateral actions against militants in Pakistan. Asked by CNN about a suspected US missile strike on an Al-Qaeda leader in Pakistan on Monday, Gilani said he told Bush that ?unilaterally it should not be done. We must have more cooperation with each other,? he said. ?Basically Americans are a little impatient. Therefore in the future I think we'll have more cooperation on the intelligence side and we'll do the job ourselves,? he said. Bush said he had received a ?strong commitment? from Gilani that Pakistan would try ?as best as possible? to prevent Taliban and Al-Qaeda militants from crossing from Pakistan into Afghanistan, where they attack US and NATO troops. (Posted @ 09:45 PST)

We should tell the unfaithful American allies to get lost. Too bad none of my leaders have had any balls since the late Z.A Bhutto in the 70s. The new government is a bunch of idiots that probably can't run a circus let alone a country!!

Sometimes I'm envious that you have Bush with leaders like mine!

You get the ISI out of Afghanistan or we WILL, and you get out of our way or you will get fucked every time we need air support, that ISI is killed in a place where they shoot at us isn't really an issue for me.

Get the fuck out of our way or do the job, that is the choices you have, one choice has been taken from you since your ISI are supporting the Talibans, this will not last, you either fix it or you are going to face the consequenses of your actions.

It doesn't matter who wins the US election either, this is a NATO mandate, you are fucked if you want to support them.

Now i'm going to visit something i haven't seen in more than a week, a proper loo, i'll be back in an hour or so.

 

[Lemon law]

Hate to tell you JOS, I am hardly a Taliban supporter, I would really love to read all about you and palehorse in some super hero comic book, but I am far too busy watching your strategy fail incredibly badly. I certainly hope smarter leaders are elected, because if they rely on the likes of you, what both you and I desire will not happen.

But in your comic book mind, you just can't grasp the fact that things are always shades of gray. And that you are hardly the sharpest or most appealing knife in the the drawer. You may be a legend in your own mind, but its still all about the people in Afghanistan and Pakistan. And when you come from far way and make their homes into your shooting gallery, you are not going to be perceived as a friend.

Do you really understand how arrogant you sound? You want to dictate your terms to Pakistan when your whole supply line is dependent on Pakistan. Right away you flunk military 101. There are always limits on military power but your stupidity seems infinite. No wonder the Afghan occupation does worse every subsequent year. Jos and palehorse, you are not part of the solution, your stinking thinking is the reason we fail.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Hate to tell you JOS, I am hardly a Taliban supporter, I would really love to read all about you and palehorse in some super hero comic book, but I am far too busy watching your strategy fail incredibly badly. I certainly hope smarter leaders are elected, because if they rely on the likes of you, what both you and I desire will not happen.

But in your comic book mind, you just can't grasp the fact that things are always shades of gray. And that you are hardly the sharpest or most appealing knife in the the drawer. You may be a legend in your own mind, but its still all about the people in Afghanistan and Pakistan. And when you come from far way and make their homes into your shooting gallery, you are not going to be perceived as a friend.

Do you really understand how arrogant you sound? You want to dictate your terms to Pakistan when your whole supply line is dependent on Pakistan. Right away you flunk military 101. There are always limits on military power but your stupidity seems infinite. No wonder the Afghan occupation does worse every subsequent year. Jos and palehorse, you are not part of the solution, your stinking thinking is the reason we fail.

what are you part of? please stop saying "we" Mr. peanut-fucking-gallery. Your only contribution to the planet is carbon dioxide.

that said, you missed the point (shocker!) of the articles I posted. For a year, or more, you've been arguing that the Taliban in Pakistan are not an issue. I think, even for the Holiday Inn Express jokers such as yourself, it should be obvious by now that the Taliban having free rain of FATA is a major part of the problem.

Then again, you still won't admit that their eradication is part of the solution.

Please don't EVER try to speak to us about "military 101" again. Your understanding of the military, our methods, and our objectives, is ignorant to say the least.

You, and your uneducated opinion on the subject, are a fucking joke Laruso. If I had my way, you'd be dropped in the middle of FATA with nothing but a banana-hammock and a tube of KY... you'd probably even enjoy it!

 

[ranmaniac]

The Afghanistan operation has been pathetically funded from the start, and has remained on the backburner for several years after the Iraq invasion. The problem that I do see is that there are elements of the elite, particularly Zbigniew Brezinzski (the mentor of Barack Obama) who are interested in destabilizing Pakistan, because of their alliance with China. If this policy is what I believe will be pursued under an Obama presidency, than you can expect a proxy war between China and the US in Pakistan, and perhaps in other nations that could be turned upside down, like India, Sri Lanka, Nepal, and Burma (which is already upside down anyway).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/.../A38200-2005Mar15.html

Zbigniew Brezinzski lobbied for the US government to grant asylum to a well known terrorist, Ilyas Akhmadov, a Chechen rebel leader, is enjoying a stippend at US taxpayers expense, a man who was responsible for terrorism and deaths of Russians. Imagine if Russia were to give asylum to Osama Bin Laden? Apparently some radical Islamic terrorists are ok, and some are not, which makes the "global war on terror" seem more like a front for wanting to divide-and-conquer nations, and not about fighting injustices.

 

[Lemon law]

First, ranmaniac, a very good and illustrative link on Chechnya and the disputes that has racked that small and strategically located country for the bulk of two centuries. And the fact that the Chechen people are hardly a a monolithic entity while various super powers use them like footballs.

But I will not stand idly by and allow palehorse to screw up Afghanistan with our taxpayer bucks while he pursues his own self appointed mission from God. Even if we accept the palehorse estimate that only 1% of the Afghan population is Taliban, that still adds up to 310,000 people that must be exterminated if we buy into the goal that extermination is the only solution. Add in the population of the Tribal areas of Pakistan and we are now talking much greater numbers. Exactly how palehorse will tell who is taliban and who is not remains a great mystery since they are ethnically the same people and we are talking ideas and not uniforms.

Equally laughable is the concept that the remaining 99% who are not Taliban love and support Palehorse&JOS as their hero's and saviors.

I do however agree with the ranmaniac statement that the "Afghanistan operation has been pathetically funded from the start."

The real question is what will solve the long term problem. Clearly a military solution is not working as a record of six plus years has shown. Once in a blue moon palehorse pays some lip service to the political and economic solutions that could totally discredit primitive type Taliban type ideas, HE CLAIMS WITHOUT ANY ARTICULATION to understand the many historical forces operating, and then immediately lapses back into his kill kill kill all Taliban mantra.

And I see the best solution as being a political and economic one. And the greatest blunder possible would be to widen this war into the tribal areas of Pakistan, where the woefully small Nato forces could only screw things up worse than they are now, replacing some semblance of order into a condition of
total anarchy. And anarchy empowers terrorists while weakening any occupying force.

Far from believing that Taliban are not a problem in Pakistan, I simply point out its a manageable problem for Pakistan. If Nato gets too aggressive, its going morph into a problem no one can manage. In my mind, Nato needs to stick to its mission of Afghanistan, Afghanistan, and Afghanistan. Your own link stated there are only some 800 border crossing points, 24/7 monitoring of those points by small patrols plus the ability to call in air support could shut down any cross border Taliban resupply without unduly straining Nato troops.

Meanwhile we all wait to see the stupid leadership of GWB&co fade into the sunset. And hopefully its will be replaced by a US government that will try to political and economic solutions in both Afghanistan and Pakistan. And if that is properly applied, even the Taliban itself will see that their own ideas have no real place in a modern world. As its is, palehorse type thinking is the greatest sales tool the Taliban has.

In a battle of ideas, the comic book thinking of JOS&palehorse are sure losers. And a lose lose lose for Afghanistan, Pakistan, and all Nato and US allies.

 

[The Green Bean]

Pakistan clash kills 25 Taliban, 5 soldiers MINGORA, July 30 (Reuters): Twenty-five Taliban militants and five soldiers were killed in a fierce clash in Swat valley in Pakistan's northwest on Wednesday, the military said. The fighting broke out after about 70 militants attacked a security post in Ucharai Sar area near Matta, a militants stronghold ants in the region. ?The attack was successfully repulsed, resulting in the death of 25 miscreants,? the military said in a statement. It said one officer was among the five soldiers killed. A spokesman for militants led by cleric Fazlullah, confirmed the clashes but said only one of their fighters was killed. Separately, militants shot and killed an Afghan woman accused of being a U.S. spy in Pakistan's North Waziristan tribal region on the Afghan border. (First Posted @ 11:40 PST Updated @ 19:34 PST)

Lawmakers ask US not to upgrade Pakistan F-16s now WASHINGTON, July 30 (Reuters): Two senior U.S. lawmakers said Tuesday they had asked the Bush administration not to shift $226.5 million in U.S. counterterrorism aid to Pakistan to upgrade Pakistani F-16 fighters for the time being. The Democratic lawmakers, House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman Howard Berman of California and Rep. Nita Lowey of New York, said they feared the plan could hinder counterterrorism efforts and wanted more time to study it. Congressional staffers, requesting anonymity, said the Bush administration could still transfer the money if it wished but sought to respect such requests from lawmakers. A U.S. official who asked not to be named said the administration was weighing how to respond but noted that there was a deadline on Thursday to make a payment to Lockheed Martin Corp, the military contractor that would upgrade the planes. In a statement, Berman and Lowey said legislation passed by Congress last year ?specifically required that military aid to Pakistan be used for counterterrorism and law enforcement activities directed against al Qaeda and the Taliban.? ?We are concerned that the administration's proposal to use military assistance to pay for the F-16 upgrades will divert funds from more effective counterterrorism tools like helicopters, TOW missiles, and night-vision goggles,? they added. Berman and Lowey said they wanted to help Gilani's government cope with a budget crisis brought on by rising fuel and food prices and proposed that Congress provide $200 million in economic aid to help address this. (Posted @ 09:25 PST)

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield


You get the ISI out of Afghanistan or we WILL, and you get out of our way or you will get fucked every time we need air support, that ISI is killed in a place where they shoot at us isn't really an issue for me.

Get the fuck out of our way or do the job, that is the choices you have, one choice has been taken from you since your ISI are supporting the Talibans, this will not last, you either fix it or you are going to face the consequenses of your actions.

It doesn't matter who wins the US election either, this is a NATO mandate, you are fucked if you want to support them.

Now i'm going to visit something i haven't seen in more than a week, a proper loo, i'll be back in an hour or so.

LOL! Even if the ISI is in Afghanistan how will you remove an intelligence agency from a country where nobody rules?

P.S I think you have misunderstood my post. :S Nobody in the ISI was killed? And you aren't crossing the border so you are the one who is fucked if we decide not to help.

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield


You get the ISI out of Afghanistan or we WILL, and you get out of our way or you will get fucked every time we need air support, that ISI is killed in a place where they shoot at us isn't really an issue for me.

Get the fuck out of our way or do the job, that is the choices you have, one choice has been taken from you since your ISI are supporting the Talibans, this will not last, you either fix it or you are going to face the consequenses of your actions.

It doesn't matter who wins the US election either, this is a NATO mandate, you are fucked if you want to support them.

Now i'm going to visit something i haven't seen in more than a week, a proper loo, i'll be back in an hour or so.

LOL! Even if the ISI is in Afghanistan how will you remove an intelligence agency from a country where nobody rules?

P.S I think you have misunderstood my post. :S Nobody in the ISI was killed? And you aren't crossing the border so you are the one who is fucked if we decide not to help.

Do you have any concept what would happen if the US and/or NATO decided, F it, we're sick of waiting for the corrupt Pak's to fix their own problem, we'll just go do it ourselves? And then the Pak military tried to stop that?

I can understand national pride, I can understand not liking the US/NATO (even though it's largely unwarranted in this case), what I can't understand is delusions of grandeur on how the Pak military stacks up against US/NATO. Please, stop the delusions.

Chuck

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: chucky2

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield


You get the ISI out of Afghanistan or we WILL, and you get out of our way or you will get fucked every time we need air support, that ISI is killed in a place where they shoot at us isn't really an issue for me.

Get the fuck out of our way or do the job, that is the choices you have, one choice has been taken from you since your ISI are supporting the Talibans, this will not last, you either fix it or you are going to face the consequenses of your actions.

It doesn't matter who wins the US election either, this is a NATO mandate, you are fucked if you want to support them.

Now i'm going to visit something i haven't seen in more than a week, a proper loo, i'll be back in an hour or so.

LOL! Even if the ISI is in Afghanistan how will you remove an intelligence agency from a country where nobody rules?

P.S I think you have misunderstood my post. :S Nobody in the ISI was killed? And you aren't crossing the border so you are the one who is fucked if we decide not to help.

Do you have any concept what would happen if the US and/or NATO decided, F it, we're sick of waiting for the corrupt Pak's to fix their own problem, we'll just go do it ourselves? And then the Pak military tried to stop that?

I can understand national pride, I can understand not liking the US/NATO (even though it's largely unwarranted in this case), what I can't understand is delusions of grandeur on how the Pak military stacks up against US/NATO. Please, stop the delusions.

Chuck

We'd give our nukes to Iran, hamas, hezbolla, Syria, Taliban, the Chechens and let the world fend for themselves? That's our version of nuclear deterrence against the US and Nato.

Also; the ISI is an intelligence agency.

 

[GDaddy]

you are all nuts.

 

[neodyn55]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: chucky2

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield


You get the ISI out of Afghanistan or we WILL, and you get out of our way or you will get fucked every time we need air support, that ISI is killed in a place where they shoot at us isn't really an issue for me.

Get the fuck out of our way or do the job, that is the choices you have, one choice has been taken from you since your ISI are supporting the Talibans, this will not last, you either fix it or you are going to face the consequenses of your actions.

It doesn't matter who wins the US election either, this is a NATO mandate, you are fucked if you want to support them.

Now i'm going to visit something i haven't seen in more than a week, a proper loo, i'll be back in an hour or so.

LOL! Even if the ISI is in Afghanistan how will you remove an intelligence agency from a country where nobody rules?

P.S I think you have misunderstood my post. :S Nobody in the ISI was killed? And you aren't crossing the border so you are the one who is fucked if we decide not to help.

Do you have any concept what would happen if the US and/or NATO decided, F it, we're sick of waiting for the corrupt Pak's to fix their own problem, we'll just go do it ourselves? And then the Pak military tried to stop that?

I can understand national pride, I can understand not liking the US/NATO (even though it's largely unwarranted in this case), what I can't understand is delusions of grandeur on how the Pak military stacks up against US/NATO. Please, stop the delusions.

Chuck

We'd give our nukes to Iran, hamas, hezbolla, Syria, Taliban, the Chechens and let the world fend for themselves? That's our version of nuclear deterrence against the US and Nato.

Also; the ISI is an intelligence agency.

When the chickens come to roost, take the coward's way out, huh?

So much of your talk of 'not harming innocents'.

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: chucky2

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield


You get the ISI out of Afghanistan or we WILL, and you get out of our way or you will get fucked every time we need air support, that ISI is killed in a place where they shoot at us isn't really an issue for me.

Get the fuck out of our way or do the job, that is the choices you have, one choice has been taken from you since your ISI are supporting the Talibans, this will not last, you either fix it or you are going to face the consequenses of your actions.

It doesn't matter who wins the US election either, this is a NATO mandate, you are fucked if you want to support them.

Now i'm going to visit something i haven't seen in more than a week, a proper loo, i'll be back in an hour or so.

LOL! Even if the ISI is in Afghanistan how will you remove an intelligence agency from a country where nobody rules?

P.S I think you have misunderstood my post. :S Nobody in the ISI was killed? And you aren't crossing the border so you are the one who is fucked if we decide not to help.

Do you have any concept what would happen if the US and/or NATO decided, F it, we're sick of waiting for the corrupt Pak's to fix their own problem, we'll just go do it ourselves? And then the Pak military tried to stop that?

I can understand national pride, I can understand not liking the US/NATO (even though it's largely unwarranted in this case), what I can't understand is delusions of grandeur on how the Pak military stacks up against US/NATO. Please, stop the delusions.

Chuck

We'd give our nukes to Iran, hamas, hezbolla, Syria, Taliban, the Chechens and let the world fend for themselves? That's our version of nuclear deterrence against the US and Nato.

Also; the ISI is an intelligence agency.

Nukes? What nukes? Do you understand what I mean here??

Also, saying the ISI isn't part of and/or aligned with the Pak military is like saying the social wings of Hamas are seperate from the military wings of Hamas. There's no real distinction between the two, they're both of the same loins.

Chuck

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: neodyn55


When the chickens come to roost, take the coward's way out, huh?

So much of your talk of 'not harming innocents'.

So do you regret your killings of hundreds of thousands of innocents in Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: neodyn55


When the chickens come to roost, take the coward's way out, huh?

So much of your talk of 'not harming innocents'.

So do you regret your killings of hundreds of thousands of innocents in Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

How could anyone not?

Chuck

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: chucky2
Nukes? What nukes? Do you understand what I mean here??

Also, saying the ISI isn't part of and/or aligned with the Pak military is like saying the social wings of Hamas are seperate from the military wings of Hamas. There's no real distinction between the two, they're both of the same loins.

Chuck

Yes. I fully understand. If the US invaded us and we resisted until a full scale war broke out we would use out nukes to pressurize the US to stop. They will have to because they can not afford nuclear proliferation. Hence you can't win a war against us.

 

[neodyn55]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: neodyn55


When the chickens come to roost, take the coward's way out, huh?

So much of your talk of 'not harming innocents'.

So do you regret your killings of hundreds of thousands of innocents in Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

1. I'm not a US citizen.

2. I wasn't alive at that time.

3. If I was alive, I would have protested the action to the fullest extent. I consider it unthinkable.

4. what you suggested and the atomic bombing of Japan are not analogous.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: chucky2

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: neodyn55


When the chickens come to roost, take the coward's way out, huh?

So much of your talk of 'not harming innocents'.

So do you regret your killings of hundreds of thousands of innocents in Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

How could anyone not?

Chuck

What about the weapons that you export that kill millions? This includes the cluster bombs that Israel used against innocent civilians.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: chucky2
Nukes? What nukes? Do you understand what I mean here??

Also, saying the ISI isn't part of and/or aligned with the Pak military is like saying the social wings of Hamas are separate from the military wings of Hamas. There's no real distinction between the two, they're both of the same loins.

Chuck

Yes. I fully understand. If the US invaded us and we resisted until a full scale war broke out we would use out nukes to pressurize the US to stop. They will have to because they can not afford nuclear proliferation. Hence you can't win a war against us.

The US/NATO is not interested in invading Pakistan. They desire to remove the Taliban who are hiding out in Pakistan (of which the Pakistan government has been turning a blind eye to). Invading is controlling territory; what will be done is an incursion to resolve a problem that Pakistan refuses to address.

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: chucky2

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: neodyn55


When the chickens come to roost, take the coward's way out, huh?

So much of your talk of 'not harming innocents'.

So do you regret your killings of hundreds of thousands of innocents in Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

How could anyone not?

Chuck

What about the weapons that you export that kill millions? This includes the cluster bombs that Israel used against innocent civilians.

Those weapons were used against Hezbollah, which chose to hide among the innocent civilians in an attempt to deter Israel from attacking them.

The bombs were not targeted at civilians. Unlike what the Palestinian militants do.

 

[Lemon law]

Maybe its time to say no one's hands are really clean and how complex and jumbled this entire problem is. A good deal of this relates to Reagan arming the Afghan resistance movement in the early 80's.

But to throw somewhat of a bone to palehorse and JOS, the following New York times piece may shed some light.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07...d/asia/30pstan.html?hp

There is almost no doubt that certain elements inside of Pakistan are aiding both Al-Quida and the Taliban. But to blindly assume that Nato can or should blindly blunder into Pakistan to fix the problem is hardly a real solution. While its true that one can always kill a cancer by killing the cancer victim, a good part of the problem is Pakistan's fear of India and its relatively fragile civilian government now transitioning away from military rule. But to assume Pakistan is any more politically united than the US is a mistake. And since GWB, our own CIA, and our military leadership are at least aware how touchy the entire situation is, I would hope that most US citizens realize how dangerous palehorse and JOS type ideas are.

At least Obama advocates that we need a far bigger troop commitment for Afghanistan, and 72,000 Nato troops is woefully inadequate. But to get the stability in Afghanistan, I certainly advocate a political and economic solution, and if needed, military efforts should be directed at keeping the Taliban out of Afghanistan rather than spreading Taliban appeal into wider regions.