Pakistani Coalition parties oppose use of force in Fata

[yllus]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: yllus
I'm all for peaceful negotiations where possible, but I imagine that what we're actually talking about here is capitulating to extremists in return for a very temporary lull in violence being imported into other regions of Pakistan.

The Taliban and their ideology is nothing new in Pakistan. They haven't been a problem because we haven't confronted them and there's no need to. Even in Afghanistan they only reason they came to power was a power vacuum. If they hadn't come Afghanistan would've had far more loss of life and violation of so called human rights. And now they're fighting a freedom war against an occupation that is illegal.

I'll just make it more clear before some bigots here start saying I support the taliban. I wish they were gone but I don't feel sorry for the Americans killed in Afghanistan.

*snorts* A regime that enacts laws such as an all-encompassing ban on females getting an education pretty much takes the cake when it comes to violations of human rights. Freedom war my ass.

The Taliban most certainly have always been a problem in Pakistan - you act as if the federal government decided to walk into the frontier regions one day and throw their weight around for no reason. I wonder if it had anything to do with the extremist use of Pakistani soil as a base of operations and funding for military actions elsewhere? Those "elsewheres" are getting very tired of Pakistan's turning a blind eye to what goes on in its own backyard, and if it doesn't act of its own accord, someone else will. And will be entirely Pakistan's own fault.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
While it is the US perspective that Pakistan should exterminate all extremists in the tribal regions, from a Pakistani perspective, as long as extremists in the tribal regions of Pakistan make no mischief against Pakistani interests, why should Pakistan waste the lives of its troops to bail out Nato in Afghanistan? As it is. Pakistan has lost more troops than Nato, and when the US and Nato refuse to co ordinate with Pakistani troops, the result is that too many Pakistani troop deaths come from US forces.

I don't even know where to start in describing just how fucking backwards those statements are.... wow.

you still don't get it at all.

As for TGB, he's just a future suicide bomber who doesnt realize it yet... he's the perfect recruit for the Taliban and others who pray upon the idiots around the region who are easily brainwashed.

he'll be raping little girls and blowing up school buses in no time at all.

or perhaps he'll simply continue to sit back and do nothing while the Taliban go on raping, murdering, and otherwise being some of the sickest fuckers on the planet. After all, TGB doesn't feel that there's a need to stop them from doing all of the above...

his words:

They haven't been a problem because we haven't confronted them and there's no need to.

In other words, just because there are child rapists and murderers running around half of Pakistan, TGB wants to know why that would be Pakistan's problem.

gee, i fucking wonder.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

US confirms Pakistan F-16 fleet upgrade WASHINGTON, July 24 (AFP/AP): The United States confirmed Thursday that it planned to shift 230 million dollars in aid to Pakistan from counter-terrorism programs to upgrading the country's F-16 fighter jets. Asked about an article in The New York Times detailing the shift, White House spokeswoman Dana Perino told reporters ?that story is accurate? but said the airplanes would be used for counter-terrorism operations. The planes traditionally have not been used in anti-terrorism operations and Congress must approve the switch, which was requested days before Pakistan's new prime minister, Yousuf Raza Gilani, is due to meet President George W. Bush at the White House. The request to Congress late last week would allow Pakistan to purchase equipment to upgrade existing planes so that they have similar capabilities to equipment the Bush administration is already selling to Pakistan. The $226 million would come from an allotment already approved for other Pakistan anti-terror operations. The previous request would have upgraded P3-C aircraft, which often are used in surveillance operations, and modernize AH-IF Cobra helicopters. The helicopter work still would be done using different funding, a State Department official said, speaking on condition of anonymity because discussions with Congress are still preliminary. Switching the money to fix up F-16s would represent a change in the purpose for more than two-thirds of the $300 million that Pakistan will receive this year in U.S. military underwriting for Pakistan's equipment and training. U.S. assistance and other payments to Pakistan have totaled $9.6 billion in the six budget years since 9/11, according to the State Department. (First Posted @ 10:50 PST Updated @ 20:04 PST)

haha!! I doubt these planes are for anything other than a deterrent against India and leverage against Afghanistan.

I hope they installed hidden self destruct mechanisms in those planes that can be activated by one of our satellites .

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Vonkhan
in other related news, pakistan is approaching collapse?

http://www.newsweek.com/id/148024

Lol; the author is an Indian Hindu! And mods take notice of this attempt to hijack my thread.

How do you know that this person is a Hindu?

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: palehorse
As for TGB, he's just a future suicide bomber who doesnt realize it yet... he's the perfect recruit for the Taliban and others who pray upon the idiots around the region who are easily brainwashed.

he'll be raping little girls and blowing up school buses in no time at all.

or perhaps he'll simply continue to sit back and do nothing while the Taliban go on raping, murdering, and otherwise being some of the sickest fuckers on the planet. After all, TGB doesn't feel that there's a need to stop them from doing all of the above...

I wouldn't go that far. The Green Bean is just an ultranationalist who has fully bought into the "the West is why Pakistan/the Islamic world sucks" excuse. Taliban/Al Qaeda using his country to hide out in and plot attacks against those wicked Westerners is A-OK in his books as long as the consequences don't come back to haunt him.

Aggrieved neighbouring nations like India and Afghanistan have long taken the brunt of what happens when Pakistan turning a blind eye to what goes on in its frontier areas, but it's increasingly looking like that isn't going to stand for much longer. Outside nations are going to start taking matters into their own hands and Pakistan's self-confidence will be even further tarnished. Fortunately, this also plays into the "the West is why Pakistan/the Islamic world sucks" bullshit. The mean old U.S. is making Pakistan do what it should have done 30 years ago!

As for Lemon law, I doubt anyone really does more than skim his posts. Rarely do you see anyone so full of shit expunge page after page of senseless crap.

 

[Socio]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

I fully agree with them. Violence is not the solution to this. I hope things get better soon.

I disagree, violence may not be the solution but violence it the only thing they understand.

To try and reach a peace agreement with them is shear idiocy because;

A, you are giving them power, voice, clout and respect, none of which they deserve.

B, they will never ever keep any agreement they may make; if they agree to anything at all it will only be to serve as a nice respite for them to freely re-group, recruit, re-arm and plan new attacks.

Al Qaida and the Taliban have to be rounded up and removed one way or another there is no other way around it.

 

[Socio]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

US confirms Pakistan F-16 fleet upgrade WASHINGTON, July 24 (AFP/AP): The United States confirmed Thursday that it planned to shift 230 million dollars in aid to Pakistan from counter-terrorism programs to upgrading the country's F-16 fighter jets. Asked about an article in The New York Times detailing the shift, White House spokeswoman Dana Perino told reporters ?that story is accurate? but said the airplanes would be used for counter-terrorism operations. The planes traditionally have not been used in anti-terrorism operations and Congress must approve the switch, which was requested days before Pakistan's new prime minister, Yousuf Raza Gilani, is due to meet President George W. Bush at the White House. The request to Congress late last week would allow Pakistan to purchase equipment to upgrade existing planes so that they have similar capabilities to equipment the Bush administration is already selling to Pakistan. The $226 million would come from an allotment already approved for other Pakistan anti-terror operations. The previous request would have upgraded P3-C aircraft, which often are used in surveillance operations, and modernize AH-IF Cobra helicopters. The helicopter work still would be done using different funding, a State Department official said, speaking on condition of anonymity because discussions with Congress are still preliminary. Switching the money to fix up F-16s would represent a change in the purpose for more than two-thirds of the $300 million that Pakistan will receive this year in U.S. military underwriting for Pakistan's equipment and training. U.S. assistance and other payments to Pakistan have totaled $9.6 billion in the six budget years since 9/11, according to the State Department. (First Posted @ 10:50 PST Updated @ 20:04 PST)

haha!! I doubt these planes are for anything other than a deterrent against India and leverage against Afghanistan.

I hope they installed hidden self destruct mechanisms in those planes that can be activated by one of our satellites .

What the hell is our government thinking?

Why would we fix up planes they will likely use against us if we end up bombing the Taliban in Pakistan?

Why would we give Pakistan a nickel until they make with a full on assault removing the Taliban and Al Qaida from their country?

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: palehorse
As for TGB, he's just a future suicide bomber who doesnt realize it yet... he's the perfect recruit for the Taliban and others who pray upon the idiots around the region who are easily brainwashed.

he'll be raping little girls and blowing up school buses in no time at all.

or perhaps he'll simply continue to sit back and do nothing while the Taliban go on raping, murdering, and otherwise being some of the sickest fuckers on the planet. After all, TGB doesn't feel that there's a need to stop them from doing all of the above...

I wouldn't go that far. The Green Bean is just an ultranationalist who has fully bought into the "the West is why Pakistan/the Islamic world sucks" excuse. Taliban/Al Qaeda using his country to hide out in and plot attacks against those wicked Westerners is A-OK in his books as long as the consequences don't come back to haunt him.

Aggrieved neighbouring nations like India and Afghanistan have long taken the brunt of what happens when Pakistan turning a blind eye to what goes on in its frontier areas, but it's increasingly looking like that isn't going to stand for much longer. Outside nations are going to start taking matters into their own hands and Pakistan's self-confidence will be even further tarnished. Fortunately, this also plays into the "the West is why Pakistan/the Islamic world sucks" bullshit. The mean old U.S. is making Pakistan do what it should have done 30 years ago!

As for Lemon law, I doubt anyone really does more than skim his posts. Rarely do you see anyone so full of shit expunge page after page of senseless crap.

So now Afghanistan is Pakistan fault!!

It's purely the Americans that are responsible. Pakistan in fact helped bring stability after the Americans abandoned it for the dogs.

In fact we've been suffereing because of both nations for years. We've taken more than a million Afghan refugees. Think of the effect they have on our economy. India has constantly threatened to stop our water.

As far as palehorse; I don't think attention hungry people like him should be fed. They should be fed however - to the dogs.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: yllus


I wouldn't go that far. The Green Bean is just an ultranationalist who has fully bought into the "the West is why Pakistan/the Islamic world sucks" excuse. Taliban/Al Qaeda using his country to hide out in and plot attacks against those wicked Westerners is A-OK in his books as long as the consequences don't come back to haunt him.

Give me a reason to trust the Americans that they will help us if we help them. They've already betrayed us so many times. They even threated to bomb us AFTER we helped them. They gave a nuclear deal to India; our major enemy. They fail to control their puppet in Kabul. They simply haven't done enough to bring us anywhere on par with their standard of living. If they want us to help us you have to do the same. Act like a friend; not someone who uses and maybe then we can be fully committed to helping you. You don't care how many Pakistanis die. There wasn't even a formal apology for the 11 Pakistanis soldiers you killed. Not to mention the illegal bombings inside our borders that have killed civilians. Why should be care for your soldiers when they are fighting a war I don't agree with. Bush said " You are with us or against us." I am definitely not with Bush. If that makes me a legal target then be it.

 

[Vonkhan]

http://www.newsweek.com/id/148721

I really want Obama to win - I hope he'll pull out of Iraq & bomb pakistan instead - bomb the RIGHT country, the one that created the taliban scum in the first place. Then OBL won't have anywhere to hide. I'm against the war in Iraq, but I'd love to see pakistan getting bombed back into the stone age ... not that they're far from it anyway.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: palehorse
As for TGB, he's just a future suicide bomber who doesnt realize it yet... he's the perfect recruit for the Taliban and others who pray upon the idiots around the region who are easily brainwashed.

he'll be raping little girls and blowing up school buses in no time at all.

or perhaps he'll simply continue to sit back and do nothing while the Taliban go on raping, murdering, and otherwise being some of the sickest fuckers on the planet. After all, TGB doesn't feel that there's a need to stop them from doing all of the above...

I wouldn't go that far. The Green Bean is just an ultranationalist who has fully bought into the "the West is why Pakistan/the Islamic world sucks" excuse. Taliban/Al Qaeda using his country to hide out in and plot attacks against those wicked Westerners is A-OK in his books as long as the consequences don't come back to haunt him.

Aggrieved neighbouring nations like India and Afghanistan have long taken the brunt of what happens when Pakistan turning a blind eye to what goes on in its frontier areas, but it's increasingly looking like that isn't going to stand for much longer. Outside nations are going to start taking matters into their own hands and Pakistan's self-confidence will be even further tarnished. Fortunately, this also plays into the "the West is why Pakistan/the Islamic world sucks" bullshit. The mean old U.S. is making Pakistan do what it should have done 30 years ago!

As for Lemon law, I doubt anyone really does more than skim his posts. Rarely do you see anyone so full of shit expunge page after page of senseless crap.

So now Afghanistan is Pakistan fault!!

It's purely the Americans that are responsible. Pakistan in fact helped bring stability after the Americans abandoned it for the dogs.

In fact we've been suffereing because of both nations for years. We've taken more than a million Afghan refugees. Think of the effect they have on our economy. India has constantly threatened to stop our water.

As far as palehorse; I don't think attention hungry people like him should be fed. They should be fed however - to the dogs.

I said Afghanistan is Pakistan's fault? Interesting. And here I thought I said that India and Afghanistan are the recipients of exported terrorist actions. Who are you trying to fool by mangling other people's words?

"Stability" with the methods and rule of the Taliban is a joke. I'm not surprised you're blaming this on Americans as well, though. That's the default excuse for every political ignoramus with your mindset.

Question: Why are there a million Afghan refugees? Why does India constantly make threats? Are they unspeakably evil nations? Is Pakistan perhaps doing things that precipitate these actions?

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Give me a reason to trust the Americans that they will help us if we help them. They've already betrayed us so many times. They even threated to bomb us AFTER we helped them. They gave a nuclear deal to India; our major enemy. They fail to control their puppet in Kabul. They simply haven't done enough to bring us anywhere on par with their standard of living. If they want us to help us you have to do the same. Act like a friend; not someone who uses and maybe then we can be fully committed to helping you. You don't care how many Pakistanis die. There wasn't even a formal apology for the 11 Pakistanis soldiers you killed. Not to mention the illegal bombings inside our borders that have killed civilians. Why should be care for your soldiers when they are fighting a war I don't agree with. Bush said " You are with us or against us." I am definitely not with Bush. If that makes me a legal target then be it.

Nobody wants or is asking for your trust. Nobody cares about your rants against outsiders' actions when it's your own internal problems that lead to them. People are simply asking that Pakistan stop mouthing the words of being a legitimate state and instead actually start acting like one. A legitimate state assumes full responsibility and control for what happens within its borders. Can't hack it? Then don't be upset when people die in the messy operations other states are forced to conduct to do the cleanup work you should be doing.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Vonkhan
http://www.newsweek.com/id/148721

I really want Obama to win - I hope he'll pull out of Iraq & bomb pakistan instead - bomb the RIGHT country, the one that created the taliban scum in the first place. Then OBL won't have anywhere to hide. I'm against the war in Iraq, but I'd love to see pakistan getting bombed back into the stone age ... not that they're far from it anyway.

That's a very jealous Indian we have here. Don't worry mate. We have plenty of nukes for you in case we get invaded to help you join us

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: yllus

Nobody wants or is asking for your trust. Nobody cares about your rants against outsiders' actions when it's your own internal problems that lead to them. People are simply asking that Pakistan stop mouthing the words of being a legitimate state and instead actually start acting like one. A legitimate state assumes full responsibility and control for what happens within its borders. Can't hack it? Then don't be upset when people die in the messy operations other states are forced to conduct to do the cleanup work you should be doing.

That proves it. We have nothing to gain from this. World conventions and laws can go to hell. They weren't enough to save Iraq from an illegal invasion so why should we listen to anyone? Why should we care for anyone but ourselves if nobody does the same for us??

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: yllus
People are simply asking that Pakistan stop mouthing the words of being a legitimate state and instead actually start acting like one. A legitimate state assumes full responsibility and control for what happens within its borders. Can't hack it? Then don't be upset when people die in the messy operations other states are forced to conduct to do the cleanup work you should be doing.

Fucking A! :thumbsup:

 

[Vonkhan]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: yllus
People are simply asking that Pakistan stop mouthing the words of being a legitimate state and instead actually start acting like one. A legitimate state assumes full responsibility and control for what happens within its borders. Can't hack it? Then don't be upset when people die in the messy operations other states are forced to conduct to do the cleanup work you should be doing.

Fucking A! :thumbsup:

:thumbsup:

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: yllus

Nobody wants or is asking for your trust. Nobody cares about your rants against outsiders' actions when it's your own internal problems that lead to them. People are simply asking that Pakistan stop mouthing the words of being a legitimate state and instead actually start acting like one. A legitimate state assumes full responsibility and control for what happens within its borders. Can't hack it? Then don't be upset when people die in the messy operations other states are forced to conduct to do the cleanup work you should be doing.

That proves it. We have nothing to gain from this. World conventions and laws can go to hell. They weren't enough to save Iraq from an illegal invasion so why should we listen to anyone? Why should we care for anyone but ourselves if nobody does the same for us??

Pakistan has nothing to gain from being able to establish security within its own borders? Do you think national prosperity is possible with an absence of safety, or is Pakistan happy to lag behind India and every other counterpart it has in Asia? How much investment and partnership do you think will thrive in that environment? Maybe you should do a little reading up on Ireland. They're doing remarkably well lately, much of that being as a result of the improved security conditions.

Nobody is asking you to care about anyone but yourself. However, when your uncaring starts to affect others, people are going to get in your face. Wise up already.

 

[Lemon law]

yllus, does it ever occur to you that Pakistan is a sovereign country, and that Pakistan does not exist as a country to only slavishly serve US interests.

And if the US DEMANDS something of Pakistan, it almost human nature to expect that demand will not be granted. But if the US does some listening and has an open dialog with Pakistan, its far more likely that favorable things will happen for both countries.

All you have to do is look at the results of the GWB&co my way or the highway diplomacy to see how stinking the results are during the past seven years.

Right now, any countries looking for diplomatic results simply bypass the USA entirely, because including the US is a kiss of death on any results.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
yllus, does it ever occur to you that Pakistan is a sovereign country, and that Pakistan does not exist as a country to only slavishly serve US interests.

And if the US DEMANDS something of Pakistan, it almost human nature to expect that demand will not be granted. But if the US does some listening and has an open dialog with Pakistan, its far more likely that favorable things will happen for both countries.

All you have to do is look at the results of the GWB&co my way or the highway diplomacy to see how stinking the results are during the past seven years.

Right now, any countries looking for diplomatic results simply bypass the USA entirely, because including the US is a kiss of death on any results.

Hey dumbass, what part of enforcing security within one's own borders is serving U.S. interests? When Afghanistan threatens and spars verbally with Pakistan over their leaky borders, is that serving U.S. interests? How about when India does it? Are they all mere pawns of the great imperialistic U.S.? :roll: Get your head out of your "GWB&co" obsessed ass and try actually being educated about the area of the world you so feebly attempt to discuss.

Governments have been asking Pakistan for decades to do something about their frontier regions. The nerve of them - not asking politely for the two hundreth time! While I have a lot of sympathy for the terrible position Pakistanis find themselves in today - having to take up arms against their own people while keeping a patchwork coalition together - it's a situation completely of their own making. It's time to stop blaming the wicked West and to face up to reality. Fools like you who feed their persecution complex aren't helping.

 

[Lemon law]

If nothing else, yllus, your posts explain why you are not employed in any diplomatic capacity by the US. And also go a long way towards explaining why Condi Rice is such a miserable failure.

 

[yllus]

Yes yes, Lemon law, run along now that your little topic diversion didn't work.

 

[Lemon law]

Cheer up yllus, when and if they jail Condi as an international war criminal, you will likely be too irrelevant to bother with. But you can run along or stick around, what you want is not likely to happen.

 

[yllus]

Yes, keep talking about Dr. Rice like a stammering yokel while the topic is the internal security matters of Pakistan. I can understand why you would make that decision - you sure as hell don't have a clue when it comes to Pakistan.

 

[Lemon law]

Yes, yllus, both you and palehorse think I am an idiot, just one little problem with your assertion, I somewhat exactly explain what is happening in terms of results and you and palehorse have nothing but a total clueless denial of reality to counter it with. Exactly what parts of actual results do you have problems dealing with?

 

[yllus]

Really, you "exactly explain what is happening in terms of results"? When did you ever do that? I've never seen such a thing posted under your name. Care to back that up in the slightest? Post two examples.

 

[Lemon law]

I think too much of this thread to let it degenerate into a personal feud between you and me. Maybe we should let others speak? As for my posts on the areas of Afghanistan, I stand by them.