Pakistan: Still Showing Us the Love

[grebe925]

Hiding out right under Pakistani noses doesn't mean that Bin Laden was their "honored guest", at all.

Yeah, rigggggggt! And pigs don't fly.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

I apologize to Mullen wrt the addition of an erroneous prefix. My mistake.

The rest of it? I dunno... weren't we supposed to have some valid intel wrt Iraqi WMD's, reconstituted nuclear program & links to Al Qaeda? I seem to recall an enormous chorus, official and unofficial, rising up behind GWB when he said so...

It's always amusing when Righties who wouldn't trust the govt to administer an after school program go down on military intelligence faster than a cheap hooker goes down for a 50... They're professional liars, but they're telling you the truth right now? Why would they, particularly when they need somebody to blame other than themselves?

How about applying some of that healthy skepticism to this?

GWB isn't president anymore and your fixation on his admin and "righties" seems rather misplaced considering the current admin. Or are you trying to claim that Obama, et al, has not learned anything from that past?

I've applied healthy skepticism to this issue. I'm highly skeptical of trusting Pakistan, especially considering the double-dealing going on within their government. How about you try looking elsewhere except the US to place the blame? At least once in a rare while put your Chomskyist notions aside and see that the US isn't the root and cause of all evil and at fault for everything bad in the world.

 

[Jhhnn]

Or are you trying to claim that Obama, et al, has not learned anything from that past?

This. The Obama Admin deals with the situation in Afghanistan & the Pakistanis the same way as their predecessor- poorly, but with more troops & more money. Karzai's leadership skills are limited to leading his cronies to the trough of American money.

Raving and finger pointing wrt the Pakistanis won't make it any better, nor will depending on the same cohort who advised GWB do a helluva lot of good, either.

Garbage in, garbage out.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

This. The Obama Admin deals with the situation in Afghanistan & the Pakistanis the same way as their predecessor- poorly, but with more troops & more money. Karzai's leadership skills are limited to leading his cronies to the trough of American money.

Raving and finger pointing wrt the Pakistanis won't make it any better, nor will depending on the same cohort who advised GWB do a helluva lot of good, either.

Garbage in, garbage out.

Actually, Obama treats the Pakistanis quite differently from GWB. GWB kissed their collective asses. Obama frequently uses drones to blow up terrorists within their borders and military raids to kill enemies of the US state that the ISI somehow can't see hiding in plain sight. The two truly have nothing in common in that regard because Obama is essentially telling the Pakis to straighten the fuck up while GWB thought he had to coddle them and would never call them out on their bullshit.

Personally, I much prefer Obama's approach. If a country is double-dealing they should be called on it.

 

[routan]

From Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_aid_to_Pakistan#Military_and_economic_aid

References # 13 and #14.

This is what an "educated" person brings to the table. If you actually read the report from your own reference:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...&sig=AHIEtbQ4MDI6szd6-Wtkm0zdAqBVlinl2A&pli=1

$7.2 billion of the money given to Pakistan is under CSF (Coalition Support Funds) which is reimbursement to Pakistan for support of US Military Operations.

The remaining ~ $12 billion has half dedicated to economic development, and half to the military fighting a war initiated by us. Last I recall, over 3000 soldiers have died fighting in the north-west tribal regions. I would imagine $6 billion for the lives of those humans is pittance and $500 million in economic aid over 10 years is not in any way a huge sum.

 

[tvarad]

It is quite fascinating to see how people like Jhhnn so readily give the benefit of the doubt to the Pakistani army while being so quick to assign motive to what the U.S. is trying to do to ensure that Afghanistan is never again used as a staging ground for attacks on the U.S.

The Pakistani army is the only one that has indulged in genocide in the second half of the twentieth century; millions were slaughtered in erstwhile East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) in 1971. Not one of the criminals that gave orders for the wholesale slaughter or indulged in it were brought to book. Notorious war criminals like A.A.K.Niazi, Yahya Khan, Rao Farman Ali, Tikka Khan (known as the butcher of Bangladesh) and others who should have been indicted and executed for the crimes died peacefully in old age. It is quite possible that the current Pakistani army leaders actually indulged in systematic rape, bayoneting of pregnant women, murder of civilians and other war crimes. Throughout it's sordid history, the Pakistani army has not thought twice about violating it's neighbor's borders, instigating wars against India and forcing the medieval Taliban thugs on Afghanistan. Hence it's indignation at the Americans threatening to take the fight to their blue-eyed Haqqani boys on their own territory comes across as rather special.

Pakistan has been given enough space, time and money to wean itself off the drugs it has addicted itself to - the main one being state sponsored terrorism. But it thinks it can go on with business as usual. That is the crux of the problem.

 

[badb0y]

Feel free to add something of substance that can actually be responded to. In this case I present you with a choice of which suggestion you despise.

Feeding the Afghans to the Pakistanis, or simply destroying Pakistan. Take your pick.

I was specifically talking about this part of your post:

OTOH, maybe they'll settle for Afghanistan. Think we can bribe them with a country?

No country in the world will touch Afghanistan with a ten foot pole. Good Luck convincing India.

 

[routan]

It is quite fascinating to see how people like Jhhnn so readily give the benefit of the doubt to the Pakistani army while being so quick to assign motive to what the U.S. is trying to do to ensure that Afghanistan is never again used as a staging ground for attacks on the U.S.

The Pakistani army is the only one that has indulged in genocide in the second half of the twentieth century; millions were slaughtered in erstwhile East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) in 1971. Not one of the criminals that gave orders for the wholesale slaughter or indulged in it were brought to book. Notorious war criminals like A.A.K.Niazi, Yahya Khan, Rao Farman Ali, Tikka Khan (known as the butcher of Bangladesh) and others who should have been indicted and executed for the crimes died peacefully in old age. It is quite possible that the current Pakistani army leaders actually indulged in systematic rape, bayoneting of pregnant women, murder of civilians and other war crimes. Throughout it's sordid history, the Pakistani army has not thought twice about violating it's neighbor's borders, instigating wars against India and forcing the medieval Taliban thugs on Afghanistan. Hence it's indignation at the Americans threatening to take the fight to their blue-eyed Haqqani boys on their own territory comes across as rather special.

Pakistan has been given enough space, time and money to wean itself off the drugs it has addicted itself to - the main one being state sponsored terrorism. But it thinks it can go on with business as usual. That is the crux of the problem.

Actually, its quite fascinating to see the inferiority complex of Indians such as yourself and busydude, who are constantly pre-occupied by its smaller neighbor. I believe the partition happened some 60 years ago. Time to move on. India is way more economically properous, resource rich and multiple times larger in population. Look towards better pastures, not the barren ones.

edit: while this poster brings up history, let us not forget the forceful occupation of Hyderabad, Junagarh and Kashmir. Lets also not forget India's role in the partition of Pakistan, using a proxy terrorist group to terrorise East India, the massacre of Sikhs in their want on independance, the Gujurat massacres, the role of India in the Sri Lankan civil wars, civilian rapes and killings in Assam, Nagaland and the last 15+ years of brutality in Kashmir.

 

[dmcowen674]

Well the war companies have to be thrilled.

Pulling out of the two middle east countries frees up forces to go in there.

 

[tvarad]

Actually, its quite fascinating to see the inferiority complex of Indians such as yourself and busydude, who are constantly pre-occupied by its smaller neighbor. I believe the partition happened some 60 years ago. Time to move on. India is way more economically properous, resource rich and multiple times larger in population. Look towards better pastures, not the barren ones.

edit: while this poster brings up history, let us not forget the forceful occupation of Hyderabad, Junagarh and Kashmir. Lets also not forget India's role in the partition of Pakistan, using a proxy terrorist group to terrorise East India, the massacre of Sikhs in their want on independance, the Gujurat massacres, the role of India in the Sri Lankan civil wars, civilian rapes and killings in Assam, Nagaland and the last 15+ years of brutality in Kashmir.

I won't dignify your non-argument except to say that the feudal Muslims who tore apart the sub-continent and who have brought Pakistan to it's knees will be consumed by the very anarchist forces they have unleashed. Their clock is ticking.

 

[crisscross]

Actually, its quite fascinating to see the inferiority complex of Indians such as yourself and busydude, who are constantly pre-occupied by its smaller neighbor. I believe the partition happened some 60 years ago. Time to move on. India is way more economically properous, resource rich and multiple times larger in population. Look towards better pastures, not the barren ones.

edit: while this poster brings up history, let us not forget the forceful occupation of Hyderabad, Junagarh and Kashmir. Lets also not forget India's role in the partition of Pakistan, using a proxy terrorist group to terrorise East India, the massacre of Sikhs in their want on independance, the Gujurat massacres, the role of India in the Sri Lankan civil wars, civilian rapes and killings in Assam, Nagaland and the last 15+ years of brutality in Kashmir.

India treats it's minorities much better than Pakistan does theirs. Maybe you should talk to the Sikhs in Pakistan who need to pay protection money to the Taliban to escape kidnapping and death. What was Pakistan's Hindu population during partition and what is it now?

 

[The Green Bean]

The Pakistan army has refused to go into North Waziristan after a meeting yesterday: http://tribune.com.pk/story/260501/north-waziristan-army-brass-votes-down-haqqani-manhunt

What is interesting is that there have been no statements from the UK or any of America's NATO allies. It seems like NATO is in no mood of expanding the war to Pakistan. The real question is does America think it can sustain another war? Surely an invasion in to Pakistani territory will prompt some sort of convert response from the Pakistanis.

 

[Rebel44]

The Pakistan army has refused to go into North Waziristan after a meeting yesterday: http://tribune.com.pk/story/260501/north-waziristan-army-brass-votes-down-haqqani-manhunt

USA will simply send more UAVs into Waziristan region.

 

[routan]

I won't dignify your non-argument except to say that the feudal Muslims who tore apart the sub-continent and who have brought Pakistan to it's knees will be consumed by the very anarchist forces they have unleashed. Their clock is ticking.

Your non-argument was met by a non-argument, which was followed by another non-argument from you. Funny how Indians are still pre-occupied by what happened over 60 years ago.

 

[routan]

India treats it's minorities much better than Pakistan does theirs. Maybe you should talk to the Sikhs in Pakistan who need to pay protection money to the Taliban to escape kidnapping and death. What was Pakistan's Hindu population during partition and what is it now?

I dont know what planet you're living in because I distinctly remember a whole Khalistan movement in India. With respect to the Sikh population in Pakistan, I highly doubt there are many Sikhs, but nonetheless, a google search brings up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_in_Pakistan#The_emergence_of_the_Sikh_community_within_Pakistan

I dont know what Pakistan's Hindu population was pre-partition, and I dont see how it is relevant. I do know the Gujurat massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujarat_Massacre, the Babri mosque's destruction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babri_Mosque, revisionism of history http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/jun/26/india.schoolsworldwide has all happened in India.

In one textbook, it was purported that the Taj Mahal, the Qutb Minar and the Red Fort—all examples of Islamic architecture—"were designed and commissioned by Hindus"

So much for treating minorities "better"

 

[grebe925]

Your non-argument was met by a non-argument, which was followed by another non-argument from you. Funny how Indians are still pre-occupied by what happened over 60 years ago.

Because we like to rub it into pakistani faces. See, the two-nation theory became the three-nation theory and not only did we have ring-side seats, but we also participated in it. We can't wait for the four-nation theory when the Balochis, who've had enough of the punjabi BS, get their own country.

 

[cirrrocco]

Every nation has a army, except Pakistan where the army has a nation

Pakistan is a victim of terrorism much like suicide bomber is a victim of his suicide vest

 

[Jaskalas]

No country in the world will touch Afghanistan with a ten foot pole. Good Luck convincing India.

I was referring to how we deal with Pakistan. Hence, Afghanistan goes to them.

 

[woolfe9999]

Yet another piece of news along the same lines. An ambush, direct attack from Pakistan in 2007 that was apparently covered up by Washington at the time, for the sake of maintaining relations with Pakistan.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44680506/ns/world_news-the_new_york_times/

It seems like this kind of news is coming out almost weekly these days.

 

[Kadarin]

Yet another piece of news along the same lines. An ambush, direct attack from Pakistan in 2007 that was apparently covered up by Washington at the time, for the sake of maintaining relations with Pakistan.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44680506/ns/world_news-the_new_york_times/

It seems like this kind of news is coming out almost weekly these days.

From TFA:

Then, just as the American and Afghan officials were climbing into vehicles provided to take them the short distance to a helicopter landing zone, a Pakistani soldier opened fire with an automatic rifle, pumping multiple rounds from just 5 or 10 yards away into an American officer, Maj. Larry J. Bauguess Jr., killing him almost instantly. An operations officer with the 82nd Airborne Division from North Carolina, Major Bauguess, 36, was married and the father of two girls, ages 4 and 6.

Fuck these people. They are useless.