Pakistan cuts off NATO supply routes

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The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
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Im not in town and cant reply frequently. This seems like a deliberate attempt by nato against the pakistani checkpost. The checkpost was on a hilltop and it is highly unlikely that there were any militants there. Secondly, if the pakistanis did in deed fire, what were natos losses? The pakistani military spokesman is saying that the attack lasted 2 hours and did not stop even after nato were informed. Why did nato apologize if they thought they were in the right. Typical western media bs to portray pakistan as the bad guys.

So pakistan has stopped the supply routes and told tge americans to vacate shamsi base. I dont think the govt. or military will back down this time unless nato and isaf take a significant step.



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cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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Pakistan's credibility is beyond reproach...OBL was not living in one of their urban centers for the last several years...they said so!
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
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Secondly, if the pakistanis did in deed fire, what were natos losses?

You are at least somewhat familiar with the level of training that most Pakistani soldiers receive, and their win\loss record in combat, right? :biggrin:
 

5150Joker

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2002
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www.techinferno.com
Did you guys see this article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world.../11/22/gIQAMdFrzN_story.html?tid=pm_world_pop


Looks like a Sino-Indo war may be on the horizon. I'm betting Pakistan is securing Afghanistan right now to ensure its western border is free from Indian influence so that if war between China/India breaks out, it can jump in and lick China's boots..I mean assist China in its efforts against India. If India is smart, it'll start courting Afghanistan like crazy and make sure Pakistan can't regain a foothold. I'm sure there's no shortage of Afghans that would be willing to route Pakistan if given the chance.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
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India has been courting Afghanistan for a decade. About half the schools, hospitals and clinics built in Afghanistan are payed for by India.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
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This has its roots in the cold war. When Indian PM Nehru decided he wished to forge a third, non-aligned path for his and other countries, independent of both the US led block and the Russian led block, we were not happy.

We put a lot of pressure on India. To escape that leverage, he turned to the Russians for some counter-balance, and started buying his arms from them.

Furthermore, he continued the small scale and "home-grown industries" policies pioneered by Gandhi. These protectionist policies protected small local industries from competition from outside global firms, principally Western, American ones. This was not kindly received by American commercial interests.

Pakistan, whose main perceived enemy is and always has been India, gleefully stepped into the breach, proclaiming themselves to us as our stalwart "anti-Communist" ally in the region, from the '50's on.

So, we began to give Pakistan enormous amounts of mostly military aid, which we thought was for anti-communist purposes but which Pakistan ever and always wanted to use to counteract the Indian military.

Now, hopefully, our 50's and 60's and 70's era diplomats weren't quite that naive, but we did plow all this money into Pakistan to pressure and punish India for daring to wish to be independent of our political sphere, and to hopefully insure, no matter how cynically, an ally in Pakistan who would do our bidding in the region.

But you can't buy love or loyalty. Not really.
This is true, except India went to the Soviets not because we "weren't happy", but because of their fairly brutal occupation by Great Britain and our fairly worthless opposition to it. But yes, our support for Pakistan was based only on two things - a hedge against the power of Soviet-leaning India and denying the Soviets the ability to expand to a warm water port. Similarly, our support of Afghanistan was based on preventing the Soviets from gaining a firm enough foothold to challenge Pakistan - not because we gave a damn about Pakistan, but because not having a warm water port was a significant limitation on the Soviets' power.

Pakistan became useless to us when the Soviet Union fell, and it's high time we treated them like the cankerous boil they are.
 

Baasha

Golden Member
Jan 4, 2010
1,989
20
81
This has its roots in the cold war. When Indian PM Nehru decided he wished to forge a third, non-aligned path for his and other countries, independent of both the US led block and the Russian led block, we were not happy.

We put a lot of pressure on India. To escape that leverage, he turned to the Russians for some counter-balance, and started buying his arms from them.

Furthermore, he continued the small scale and "home-grown industries" policies pioneered by Gandhi. These protectionist policies protected small local industries from competition from outside global firms, principally Western, American ones. This was not kindly received by American commercial interests.

Pakistan, whose main perceived enemy is and always has been India, gleefully stepped into the breach, proclaiming themselves to us as our stalwart "anti-Communist" ally in the region, from the '50's on.

So, we began to give Pakistan enormous amounts of mostly military aid, which we thought was for anti-communist purposes but which Pakistan ever and always wanted to use to counteract the Indian military.

Now, hopefully, our 50's and 60's and 70's era diplomats weren't quite that naive, but we did plow all this money into Pakistan to pressure and punish India for daring to wish to be independent of our political sphere, and to hopefully insure, no matter how cynically, an ally in Pakistan who would do our bidding in the region.

But you can't buy love or loyalty. Not really.

An informative post to those who are usually clueless about the relationship, or rather, relationSHIT, between the US and India until very recently.

It should also be noted that along with Nehru's affinity towards the Soviets after America overtly supported Pakistan, his background and education must be accounted for as well. What I mean is that he went to school in England and then continued on to Trinity College in Cambridge. There, he was enraptured with Communism and Socialism as profound philosophies that would be the panacea to the common people. He always fancied himself a leader and with his brilliant oratory and supreme intellect, he found himself rubbing shoulders with the upper echelon of India's freedom fighters and of course, the Mahatma (Gandhi) himself!

It should also be noted that Nehru was a self-avowed atheist and had an enormous disdain for traditional Indian customs; he fancied himself the "last white man to rule India" (publicly stated this to John Galbraith)! And thus, once in power, he wasted no time in steering India towards a precipitous path towards a socialist democracy; something that was completely antithetical to the Indian collective conscience. Instead of declaring India a Hindu nation for Hindus, by Hindus, and of Hindus, he, with the blessings of the Mahatma, declared India a "secular, socialist democratic republic", leaving 100s of millions of Hindus shell-shocked.

It was also Nehru who decided to stop Sardar Vallabhai Patel, the Iron Man of India, from completing the accession of Jammu & Kashmir into the Indian republic! India had 660 princely states (approximately) before independence and when the rat British were kicked out, they had the temerity to tell all of the Maharajas (kings) that they could either join India OR Pakistan (India for Hindus, Pakistan for Muslims). They knew this would create turmoil and instability and thus the Partition of India was the final blow the British scum left India with. Of the ~ 660 kingdoms, more than 500 of them acceded to India; meaning, their rulers signed the Rule of Accession after being convinced :)D) by Sardar Patel and VP Menon to join India. The idea was that Hindu majority areas would join India while Muslim majority areas would join Pakistan. However, there were several princely states, or kingdoms, that had either Hindu majority but Muslim ruler or Muslim majority but Hindu ruler and thus created a conundrum. Some examples of these kingdoms were Hyderabad, ruled by the Nizam of Hyderabad (one of the richest men in all of the world in all history) who was Muslim but his subjects were mostly Hindu as well as Junagadh. On the other side, the kingdom of Kashmir was majority Muslim but ruled by a Hindu king. The king of Junagadh, the wuss that he was, ran off to Pakistan abandoning his subjects; so the accession into India was quite easy. Hyderabad threatened to join Pakistan and since this kingdom was located in the south of India, far removed from the north-western and north-eastern regions of what would become Pakistan, Sardar Patel and VP Menon saw the debacle that would create down the road. They sent the Indian Army to the outskirts of the Nizam's kingdom and he signed the Rule of Accession immediately! The last kingdom to accede to India that remained "undecided" was Kashmir. When Sardar Patel convinced the king to join India, he signed the document and Kashmir officially became part of the Republic of India. While this was happening, riots broke out in Kashmir and the king began to equivocate his position. This led Sardar Patel to send the Army to the border of Kashmir when Nehru stopped him and told him, "We can solve this problem "peacefully through dialogue" and through the United Nations! And, 64 years after independence, Kashmir is still considered a "disputed" region by anti-Indian foreigners and the Muslim coup of 1989 forced the already small minority of Kashmiri Pandits (Hindus) to either flee or be killed. The real travesty of this whole shebang was that Nehru himself was a Kashmiri Pandit! Sardar Patel and VP Menon united most of the disparate kingdoms of Bharat into one republic. Nehru attempted to unite one and was not able to do it! Such is delusion of liberal Marxists who think EVERYTHING can be solved through dialogue and "talks".

On the notion of America's relationship with India since independence (India's), it is interesting to know that Dwight Eisenhower offered to arm and train the ENTIRE Indian army completely FREE of cost in exchange for America building a base on Indian soil. Nehru flatly rejected the offer and this, in addition to the non-aligned stand that India adopted, infuriated the American establishment. This further enabled the US to mollycoddle the Pakistanis of whom they had no idea about; their history, culture, or even reason for the country's existence. And so, America is only now, after six miserable decades, is starting to see the duplicitous nature of Pakistan.

India, in its hoary history, has never invaded anyone or destroyed any civilization. India has been forced with defending herself from barbarians since the time of Alexander the Not-So-Great. It should be of no surprise to those who are unaware of the machinations of the complex geo-political nature of the Indian sub-continent that Pakistan finds a natural ally in China and both countries see India as an "expansionist and aggressive" nation trying to grab the land of others! Such hypocrisy should make one physically sick! It should also be noted that China gave Pakistan nukes and consequently endangered the entire world. If Pakistan were to use its nukes, even one, it would set off WWIII and humanity back several decades if not worse.
 
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Baasha

Golden Member
Jan 4, 2010
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India has been courting Afghanistan for a decade. About half the schools, hospitals and clinics built in Afghanistan are payed for by India.

Yes, that's true. They are about 30 years too late. They should have jumped in when the Soviets were kicked out and helped Afghans rebuild their country. On that note, EVERY Afghan I've talked to, both men and women, LOVE India. You should see their faces when asked about Pakistan! XD
 

Karl Agathon

Golden Member
Sep 30, 2010
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India needs to make even more nuclear missles and aim them at Red China for an even bigger deterence against that belligerent country.
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
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Sadly, the truth is going to be of little relevance to the man in the street in Pakistan. The US is the devil. That is what they think of us and it's high time we realized that this perception isn't changing any time soon, and forumulate our policy in the region accordingly.

That is ironic. It is true though, just change pakistan with usa and vice versa.

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The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
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When's the last time Americans burned a Pakistani flag on the street? Sorry, the hysteria isn't quite the same.

I cant count the times americans on these forums have called for turning pakistan into glass. I agree--the hysteria isnt quite the samw.

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Whiskey16

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2011
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India needs to make even more nuclear missles and aim them at Red China for an even bigger deterence against that belligerent country.

In all rational honesty, that is quite rich coming from a Yank who's state has engaged how many foreign wars over the past few decades. Now count China's.

I'm not defending any practices of China, just attempting to have you eat some well deserved crow.
 

MotF Bane

No Lifer
Dec 22, 2006
60,801
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I cant count the times americans on these forums have called for turning pakistan into glass. I agree--the hysteria isnt quite the samw.

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Well, we know what you would like to see happen to America, so... Glass houses.

.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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Why is this anymore believable than the NATO version? :confused:

For one: nato's version lacks any details and they have yet to deny the pakistani version outright.

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2067490/Pakistan-boycott-vital-talks-U-S-Afghanistan-Nato-attack.html
Meanwhile, preliminary U.S. military reports reveal that Nato forces may have been lured into attacking friendly Pakistani border posts in a calculated manoeuvre by the Taliban.
The attack - which Pakistan claims went on for almost two hours and continued even after soldiers had pleaded with forces to stop - marked the deadliest friendly fire incident with Pakistan since the Afghanistan war began.
A joint U.S.-Afghan patrol was attacked by the Taliban in the early hours of Saturday morning.

More...
Nato airstrike which killed 24 soldiers went on for TWO hours and continued even when we begged them to stop, says Pakistan army
Pakistan gives America two-week ultimatum to abandon 'secret' airbase and closes border: Hundreds of Afghan-bound supply trucks line up as tensions mount
While pursuing the Taliban in the poorly-marked border area, the patrol is said to have mistaken one of the Pakistan troop outposts for a militant encampment and called in a Nato gunship and attack helicopters to open fire.
U.S. officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, claim the reports suggest the Taliban may have deliberately tried to provoke a cross-border fire-fight that would set back fragile partnerships between the U.S. and Nato forces and Pakistani soldiers at the ill-defined border.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-S-Afghanistan-Nato-attack.html#ixzz1fCQ5xKLO


As more and more details come out, it seems as if both sides have been perfectly played against each other.

All you need is one heavy weapon fired from the perimeter of the Pakistani camp against the NATO forces and all hell broke loose.
At that hour; no one asks whose weapon it was; the fact that it was fired at NATO is enough to fire back.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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As EK is 100&#37; wrong, basically saying the devil made Nato do it.

No it does not wash, Nato troops know perfectly well, they are to engage in zero military operations inside of Pakistan. The only criteria that matters.

As Nato needs to court marshall and convict the Nato officers involved for the crime of murder. Its not that the Nato officers don't have a plethora of GPS devices, to instantly and precisely determine which side of the border they are. Then it goes up higher up in the Nato command chain, as no idiot in the Nato airforce asked which side of the border they were bombing.

Why try to make stupid claims and Nato excuses, when the which side of the border you are on question is THE ONLY CRITERIA!