P-4 puts Thunderbird to shame !!!!!!!!!!!

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Insane3D

Elite Member
May 24, 2000
19,446
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"By the way, I'll take that Athlon hunk-o-junk off your hands for, say, 50 bucks?"

Nah...how about $15? I wouldn't feel right charging that much for such an unstable, low-performing platform...;):)
 

DarkMajiq

Diamond Member
Jun 11, 2000
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<<Nah...how about $15? I wouldn't feel right charging that much for such an unstable, low-performing platform...>>

Where do I send the M.O.? ;)
 

NOS440

Golden Member
Dec 27, 1999
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cmv why do I have this system well because I can
why do I like to get a rise out of AMD people because I can



Something valid in my response ???? well how about this If you don't like my thread don't read them Okay. This BBS is here for users to chat discuss whatever they want and you have no right or business telling another user what he should or shouldn't say or do they have moderators for that and I have never heard from one in 5 years so I must not be to far out of line !!!!!!

 

Zephyr

Senior member
May 13, 2000
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<< why do I like to get a rise out of AMD people because I can >>


*LOL* I think you just proved cmv's excellent point ;)
NOS admit the real reason why you hate AMD and people who believe in AMD so much! You were with AMD just like the rest of us untill you got a board that didn't work very well for you. If it was a FURBAR'ed board, lack of drivers or whatever I can't say cos I've never seen the board, but whereas most of us just gets over these kind of things (I've cursed the Ali5 chipset into the deepest pits of hell more times than I can count) you chose to take it to a whole new level. Was it in frustration that most of us could get our AMD751 based boards to work and they worked great? It would seem likely to me based on my knowledge of what happened back then ;)
 

NOS440

Golden Member
Dec 27, 1999
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No I just hate AMD and you Zephyr ;) ;) I do this stuff because its fun and you guy's are so twisted that you actually believe AMD gives a sh!t about ya !!!!! or Intel for that matter you guy's are all Zealots not me !!!!!!
 

Zephyr

Senior member
May 13, 2000
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<< actually believe AMD gives a sh!t about ya !!!!! >>


Wrong! I fully realize that AMD is a business just like Intel and that neither company gives a damn about their customers really.
My motives are purely ideological. I believe in free market, and in order for free market to actually work it must be based on the idea that the one who makes the better roduct should win the market. AMD holds this title now!

Intel with it's monopolistic nature negates the free market effect if they can get away with it. They use unfair methods like FUD (which BTW is somehting I consider a personal degradation of mine and ever other even remotely skilled computerusers intellignece) pressuring 3rd party manufactires, attempting to take control over the RAM industry.
Therefor the conclusion is..theone who makes the better product (AMD or Intel) should win, if it's a tie (or close to one) AMD should win because power to Intel is basically bad ofr the consumers.
Have you ever been able to buy a highend cpu for less than $300 before? I think my point has been proven beyond any doubt :)
 

NOS440

Golden Member
Dec 27, 1999
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I have no problem with that statement and believe it was true a 1-2 years ago but everything has changed and AMD needs to change with the times just like Intel has and still is doing. Like I said I'm glad AMD is there I just won't buy the stuff out of princible. I still say they released a completely BETA product with the Original Athlon. This p-4 works perfect straight out of the box with one update to run and that's it.
 

Zephyr

Senior member
May 13, 2000
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<< I have no problem with that statement and believe it was true a 1-2 years ago but everything has changed and AMD needs to change with the times just like Intel has and still is doing. >>


Yes things has changed, and I don't see any reason why things need to change. Cpus have never been so cheap.


<< Like I said I'm glad AMD is there I just won't buy the stuff out of princible >>


you obviously didn't read/understand my statement. I actually stated twice that what I believe in is that the better product should win.. that is not buying out of principle. I merely stated in the case of a tie, you should buy AMD out of principle. This however requires you have no preference for either product, and is somewhat theoretical IMO.


<< I still say they released a completely BETA product with the Original Athlon. >>


Again you are mistaken... AMD did not release a beta product, they released two products:
1) the Athlon cpu in which there were 4 errata, none of which was system critical. (the PIII has around 60 errata of which none supposedly are system critical)
2)The AMD751 chipset. There were released good and not so good boards based on this chipset which goes to show that the chipset itself was ok (yes the first revisions lacked a bit to be desired, neverthess it was only preformance applicate errata). You can say that some board manufacturers released beta products (if you say FIC you won't get any arguenment from me)
 

DarkMajiq

Diamond Member
Jun 11, 2000
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<< the one who makes the better roduct should win the market. AMD holds this title now! >>


Damn straight! :)


<< DarkMajiq your being ripped off dude >>


Nah, it's a damned good deal.
 

NOS440

Golden Member
Dec 27, 1999
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Zephyr well on the early Motherboard issue there were many people that had problems with a certain companies boards and others that had none. At the very least I would say that the quality control wasn't what it should of been on the chipset. I also had a nagging problem with one of my processors where like every 3 to 5 boots when it got to windows it would have a green line across the top of the screen and lock up. This problem acured on a K7M and a Abit VIA board exactly the same with different Power Suppies memory evertything changed the only thing in common was the CPU. Now I would say that was a Faulty Processor But AMD would never replace it. I say at the very least that was bad customer service .
 

frustrated2

Golden Member
Mar 12, 2000
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Well folks I have refrained from posting to this thread but have read it top to bottom and cannot refrain any longer. I will give you some background on what I am about to say so you know where I am coming from.

Winter of 99 I decided to make the jump and put together an AMD Athlon classic based computer. I used the then highly touted GA-7IX motherboard and a 550 athlon to put together a system. I was on a tight budget then and didn't really build as high an end system as I am acustomed to now but never the less it was pretty nice for the amount of money I put into it.
System specs:
GA-7IX mobo
550 athlon
voodoo 3000
seimens ram
us robotics modem
sb128 soundcard
toshiba dvd
etc.

I assembled the computer and couldn't get it to install windows it would install part of it but crash towards the end. I asked the people that I bought it from and they said well it could be that the ram is causing the problem athlons are kind of picky. So they exchanged the ram still no go same thing they said well how about you try another stick just for good measure and still the same thing. So after reading some more I hear that it could be my psu. The guy who sold it said no that isn't it we use that psu all the time bring it up and let me have a look at it. So I take it to the store he fiddles and messed with it and gets windows to install. He said I don't know what it was maybe a loose connector but it seems fine now. Great I said the computer is really fast but it still has an occasional lockup and this annoys me so I start hanging at amdzone reading everything about athlons. I learn everything that I can about the athlon and start to change some things. First I buy crucial ram the best they make pc 133 cas2 good stuff, and then I get a new psu enermax 430watt none the less the best right?? well no matter what I do the computer is only about 80% stable. So then I meet NOS at amdzone and low and behold he lives near me and says bring it over we will get it running fine. So I go over he looks at it does a bunch of tweaking and reinstalls the os ya di ya di ya. It runs a little better after that but never seems to be just right--ROCK STABLE. Well then I find the psu to be defective and get that rma'd get the new one back all seems to be fine for a little while but still is a little unstable. I then find that this psu seems to have a start up problem and rma it and get another one (now mind you enermax is the best :)). All seems to be just fine with the athlon setup runs great for several weeks maybe a crash here or there but really runs quite nice and I get my final lockup and lose half of a project for college. THAT WAS IT FOR AMD!
I never got the system to run right after a year of nothing but trying I got my INTEL based system to run perfectly in about 4 hours start to finish and never and I mean never have I seen an AMDBSOD with it. Not to mention that ALL of the same components + somemore went into my p3 based system and worked flawlessly. I now am on my 2nd INTEL machine and set this one up in about the same amount of time and have never seen a blue screen on this one either and I am about to put together a p4 system after playing unreal and Q3 on NOS's rig. I will also add that I got a great deal on it because I would not pay what they are asking for these retail. Now not to long ago I was at NOS's house and a buddy of his brought his athlon machine over to get some work done on it cause it won't run right(imagine that)and I seen my first AMDBSOD since switching to Intel and I must say I didn't much like it and was actually quite suprised to see it since I had just about forgotten what they looked like since investing in a SMOOTH RUNNING P3 RIG!

Sorry to be so long winded but my experience in these threads tells me that you guys demand this, as you will try to find every excuse in the book for why it did not work and why someone else couldn't get it to work and why this and that.
I think that the first thing you will say is &quot;you had a faulty mobo&quot; well the company and the place I bought it from said they wouldn't replace it so there goes that excuse and I certainly wasn't going to buy another piece of sh!t and have the same dam problem.

I think all of you are missing the point on this thread, more so than anything a computer MUST BE STABLE and I mean ROCK STABLE or I don't want to own it period nor does NOS. Now maybe I have a different definition of stable than you all but to me it means that the computer runs flawlessly when you turn it on and runs WITHOUT stopping until you shut it down not resting in between blue screening etc. and I never could achieve that with the AMD setup that I HAD. This is what keeps me from trying another I know that I can get Intel stuff to run flawless and sell it for good money when I am done because people know it runs great this to me is VALUE even though it costs a little more up front you will recover some or most of your money down the road when you sell it off.
I also think that the stuff AMD produces now is much better, much more stable, faster etc. better all around than it was. NOS had much the same experience as I did only to the tune of 2 different motherboards and 3 or more cpus along with different memory powersupplies etc.= ALOT MORE MONEY LOST
Now to top my whole AMD experience off I had to almost give away my athlon motherboard cooler etc. Can you all see why I don't care for AMD? Not only did I never get it work right but I could never get my money back out of it. Not that I would have paid much for the junk either and this is why I have a really hard time buying AMD again.
If you all could GUARANTEE me that an AMD setup would work PERFECTLY then I might buy another one (and I will refer you to a previous part of my post on what this means to me) as they have great price/speed ratios on there cpu's.

It will be entertaining to read the replies to this one in the morning :) ;)
 

Priit

Golden Member
Nov 2, 2000
1,337
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Okay, frustrated2, so you had a really bad luck with early Athlon and now you will never buy anything that has something to do with AMD again? Most unstable and buggy processor I have seen came from the blue boys: it is Pentium 60. I have one system in my workplace for testing. I'm really happy that I didn't buy one when they came out: it doesn't run ANYTHING stable. And yes, I have tried it with different RAM, HDD, PSU and V-card. Now, should I automatically say that anything that has came out with Intel's logo in it is ustable crap ? I don't think so. AMD isn't only one that has had problems with their new-generation CPU's. What software were you trying to run on your Athlon ? MS Windows ? Damn, I haven't seen it being ROCK stable even on (Intel-based) Compaq's and IBM's servers...
 

Compellor

Senior member
Oct 1, 2000
889
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<< I think all of you are missing the point on this thread, more so than anything a computer MUST BE STABLE and I mean ROCK STABLE or I don't want to own it period nor does NOS. Now maybe I have a different definition of stable than you all but to me it means that the computer runs flawlessly when you turn it on and runs WITHOUT stopping until you shut it down not resting in between blue screening etc. and I never could achieve that with the AMD setup that I HAD. >>



I have NEVER had or seen a system which was completely rock solid stable on either platform running Win 9x. If you say you've never once had a blue screen or lockup on an Intel system, EVER, you're a liar (or just naive). I've been building systems for almost 6 years and never once saw a system that ran flawlessly 24/7, 365 days a year. You and NOS's problem is that you bought $hit hardware (buyers of early AMD/VIA/Apollo/SiS products got screwed) and expected them to setup and cofigure properly like an Intel system. I suspect neither of you knew what the hell you were doing. Don't people read anymore? Do you buy on impulse?

I can understand the frustration behind a failing system, but the idea that Intel is STILL the only solution that doesn't have ANY problems is just absurd. The whole point of NOS440's first post was to $hit on AMD (read the last sentence) and to utterly, make a fool of himself. He's got the &quot;mine's bigger and better than yours&quot; syndrome, and thinks he and his P4 are hot $hit. Whoop de do.

 

Insane3D

Elite Member
May 24, 2000
19,446
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Compellor:

Well said. You know what they say about someone who constantly feels the need to prove the &quot;mine's bigger than yours&quot; deal....they are most likely trying to make up for something that is not bigger, but much smaller...nuff said. ;) :p
 

frustrated2

Golden Member
Mar 12, 2000
1,187
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Well folks like I said I knew that you would find every excuse in the book to defend the beloved AMD but here are the facts about the AMD experience from my point of view

I seen 3 different motherboards gigabyte, asus, and abit all of which make excellent products and would almost bet that these 3 makers compose 90% of the motherboards you guys use right now. Of these 3 setups I never and I mean never seen them work the way they are supposed to period. These boards include an all VIA chipset, an all AMD chipset, and a combination of both AMD and VIA chipsets and IMHO they ALL SUCKED!! How much junk have these manufacturers produced since then?? Not to many that I can think of maybe the SE6 by Abit but that will at least run.

Compellor see that is where you are wrong. I have seen several systems between NOS and myself that were Intel based and have never seen CHRONIC BLUE SCREENING on any of them. I am not saying that the systems are on 24/7 365 but whenever you start your computer they run flawlessly. As far as not knowing what we were doing well I guess you could be right but we have built about 100 computers between us that have run and are still running ROCK STABLE!! So if that makes us incompetant then that is exactly what we are.
I think it is really funny how every system I build or see being built with Intel just goes together and runs flawlessly from the start and EVERY single AMD machine that I have seen first hand is nothing more than a pain in the A$$ from beginning to end.
Like I said I am sure that the stuff AMD builds now is better but I am not going to blow my money on anymore of it and I know you are going to say that I am blowing my money on a p4 well I will make you a bet: that for what I have into it I can sell it at a profit after I am done trying it out but that won't happen since I am sure that it will be yet another ROCK STABLE INTEL system.
Where are all the guarantees that you people have?? I thought AMD was the best and the most stable ya di ya di ya. So where are they at?? I GUARANTEE that if I sold my Intel setups they would run flawlessly to whomever bought them.
I will also admit that alot of the instability of AMD is due to the motherboards (classic athlon and its current issues were part of it) that are built for them but this is their fault as well because they should be building chipsets for their cpus I know they said that they don't want to be in the chipset market but in order to fully support their product they should be building viable chipsets for their processors (not like the 750 or 751 irongate chipsets those will definately put them out of business)Does GM rely entirely on outside manufacturers and privately owned service stations to support their cars and trucks???
 

Buddabudda

Member
Dec 31, 2000
59
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From Tim Sweeny @ http://www.tech-report.com/etc/2001q1/sweeney-p4/

=============================================================================

The P4 is a good architecture, it's just not a good architecture for any of the current program executables on the market. It will take a while (a year or two perhaps) for Visual C++ to catch up, and for game and applications developers to recompile and ship new versions of their software that really take advantage of the P4.
I look at the P4 pragmatically. In terms of current applications, the P4 is basically equivalent to a P3 running at a few hundred megahertz lower clock rate. The P4 architecture, with its really long pipeline, doesn't seem to be designed for optimal instruction-per-second throughput -- the P3 probably beats it there -- it's designed to scale up to higher clock rates better than the P3. So, Intel's focus on the P4 is a good and necessary step for the industry, but don't expect much now. The big benefits to come in a couple years, when they get up into the many-gigahertz range.

The Unreal engine is pretty sensitive to both memory latency and memory bandwidth. The P4's Rambus focus is OK for this, but it's not optimal. I expect DDR will perform better for most of the high-performance 3D games on the market. The Xbox architecture (unified memory architecture, DDR memory) is really the model of what's ideal for us. However, with the P4's bus, Rambus is no longer the huge, glaring flaw as it was on Pentium 3 PC's equipped with RDRAM -- where the added memory latency made (more expensive) Rambus memory significantly slower than SDR memory for 3D applications.

SSE2 is an improvement over SSE, 3DNow, and Intel's past floating point architecture, since it contains a new, rapidly-accessible register set. However, these improvements will only show up in applications that are recompiled for SSE2, and it could be a year or more before good tools are available for this. With past architectural improvements like MMX, we went through and rewrote parts of our game in assembly language, taking advantage of the new instructions that way. Now, virtually no developers (even performance 3D game developers) use assembly language anymore, so our ability to take advantage of SSE2 is limited by compiler support. And virtually all developers are using Visual C++, and are limited by waiting on Microsoft for compiler improvements. (No, compiling with Intel's &quot;benchmark&quot; compiler isn't an option).

I think &quot;Netburst&quot; is a buzzword, not an architecture. Intel is very marketing savvy, and recognizes that users' biggest desire now isn't megahertz, but Internet performance. So, they have crafted this silly marketing campaign around promoting the P4 as improving your Internet experience. That might be good marketing, but it's lousy technology. The notion of a P4 improving your modem or DSL line's bandwidth is complete bullshit. As developers and gamers, we always laugh about that, and wonder (seriously) if Intel really thinks users are dumb enough to buy a P4 thinking it will give them better Internet performance.

In current apps, the 1.5 GHz P4 ends up being about equivalant to a 1.1 GHz Athlon. I think that's a fair comparison. Of course, both Intel and AMD are always releasing bogus benchmarks to show how their processor is much faster, but those tend to be very contrived situations. As a software developer, I also view it as unrealistic to run benchmarks using a new compiler designed just for those benchmarks -- this puts the emphasis on compiler tricks rather than real application performance.

The Intel/AMD benchmarking seems a lot to me like the Bush/Gore contest and all its cynicism: You know, &quot;This country should count ALL the votes. Oh, just not those sitting over there in that pile. And you should count THESE votes a few more times just to be sure.&quot; The same thing is true of CPU benchmarking. Users don't run benchmarks; users run real applications, so you need to compare application performance. Not some special new applications recompiled with someone's trick compiler, but real applications on store shelves. And in that view, both Intel's and AMD's top-of-the-line offerings come out very close.


-Tim

==============================================================

I'll wait the year or two it takes for applications to actually take advantage of SSE2, then I might actually purchase a P4. But, a lot can happen in a couple years. Just in case you missed it, &quot;In current apps, the 1.5 GHz P4 ends up being about equivalant to a 1.1 GHz Athlon.&quot; I don't see any reason to fork out another 400 to 500 bucks for the processor let alone the Rambus. I don't care what processor I'm using as long as I win. No one comes over to my house and looks in my case. I can assure you my wife is less than impressed with my processor selection to boot. If you want to believe that the p4 is the best thing going, good for you. Enjoy your processor.
 

frustrated2

Golden Member
Mar 12, 2000
1,187
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Makes perfect sense to me. I like what was said in that post Buddabudda. I will be honest I will only have about the same amount of money into this p4 system as I would have if I built the AMD system I really did get a great deal on everything. I know everyone will post pricewatch prices etc and try to tell me exactly how much I spent but I will say now that I didn't get it off of pricewatch and truly am building this system with 1.4 ghz cpu and 512 meg of rdram for just under a $1000. Which means after selling current components it will cost me $350 or so to upgrade to the future and maybe be all set for over 1 year.
 

NOS440

Golden Member
Dec 27, 1999
1,960
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well you want complete stability how about my server here that serves my network Cable online and printer and what not. The record for it is 2 1/2 months without a forced reboot and this is with Window ME. Never guess what it is its a P-3 woth a 815E chipset Motherboard !!!!!!!!!!!


Compellor/Insane3D you are both moron's the guy asks a straight forward Question and tells you the whole story. All you can do is insult him you both are A$$'s
 

NOS440

Golden Member
Dec 27, 1999
1,960
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Buddabudda thank you very much for giving everyone a great over view of the P-4 agan thanks
 

Zephyr

Senior member
May 13, 2000
323
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Frustrated2

Sorry to hear about your misfortune... however I would like you to cinsider this. I have close friend who had a Pentium 100 on an Asus mobo a long time ago. His experiences with this machine was not quite unlike what you just desribed. I believe he exchanged pretty much every deviced expect the mobo and cpu with were both RMA'ed several times. So judging form that Intel makes unstable products right? ;)
 

NOS440

Golden Member
Dec 27, 1999
1,960
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Zephyr your digging deep there aren't ya that was one hell of a yesteryawn were talking a year ago and still very fresh in are minds.
 

Zephyr

Senior member
May 13, 2000
323
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NOS

it was just the most obvious example I could find. He'll I'll add another.. another friend of mine who I used to do a lot of LAN gaming with.. had a dual PII 400MHz on an Asus BX board. Extremely unstable setup... lots of BSODs.. then I convinced him to try out AMD (wasn't too hard to persuade) he built a couple of AMD classics for some friends... then got a Tbird himself... I haven't seen him look at an Intel since :)
I'm sure you're not inclined to believe me when I say that in my experience Intel users seems to have much more problems with their setups at LAN parties than AMD users... just an interesting observation I've made ;)