overtraining

[coreyb]

I was wondering if anyone could give me some information on overtraining. I'm curious how easy it is to do and what are the signs. I've recently started muay thai after a 2 month layoff from a lower back injury and I don't want to push it too hard too fast. I love doing it so it's hard not to go every day, but I know I need to be careful. I've went Monday and Wednesday this week and worked my ass off! I'm sore in every muscle in my body and have been eating and sleeping my ass off. I just wish I had a trainer sometimes to keep me in check!

 

[RagingBITCH]

Every body has different limits. I don't know how often most people train in Muy Thai...when in doubt, go easy. It's better than pushing yourself to the brink and injuring yourself, creating yet another layoff.

 

[silverpig]

Your body should generally tell you when is too much.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Signs of central nervous system fatigue are lethargy, trouble sleeping, overall sleepiness, stalling in improvement, sluggishness, etc. That's often times what overtraining is for most people. Overtraining can also include nagging injuries that aren't healing well, a great deal of soreness (which is a precursor/symptom of rhabdomyolysis), etc. Like it was said, you can go as much as you want, but if you start to feel like you're overtraining, take a step back and go big on form and lower on intensity. You'll still be benefiting your Muay Thai, but will give your body a bit of a break.

 

[coreyb]

I'm just worried that I've already went to hard because my ENTIRE body is sore since I started on Monday. It's getting a little better since last night's class though.

 

[StageLeft]

Basically, if you're sleeping and eating ok most people do not have to worry about overtraining. Certainly it's basically impossible to do it in a couple of days. Full body soreness just is full body soreness; overtraining is something that will take longer to kick in.

 

[coreyb]

Is it harder to overtrain in a sport like muay thai where the majority of your work comes in the form of bodyweight exercises and hard cardio?

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: coreyb
Is it harder to overtrain in a sport like muay thai where the majority of your work comes in the form of bodyweight exercises and hard cardio?

No, not at all. However, your whole body being sore doesn't convey overtraining. For CNS fatigue, it takes a lot longer than a couple of days to really feel the effects. However, you can get rhabdo from a couple of workouts. You need to ease into it like everything else. Rhabdo is pretty dangerous and can lead to kidney failure. I had it from water polo which was all body weight exercises and hard cardio. I wasn't aware of it, but I could've died.

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged

Originally posted by: coreyb
Is it harder to overtrain in a sport like muay thai where the majority of your work comes in the form of bodyweight exercises and hard cardio?

No, not at all. However, your whole body being sore doesn't convey overtraining. For CNS fatigue, it takes a lot longer than a couple of days to really feel the effects. However, you can get rhabdo from a couple of workouts. You need to ease into it like everything else. Rhabdo is pretty dangerous and can lead to kidney failure. I had it from water polo which was all body weight exercises and hard cardio. I wasn't aware of it, but I could've died.

:thumbsup:


Though pretty rare, rhabdo is something everyone needs to understand and be wary of the symptoms.

As for over-training in general, I think SC is spot-on. It's a much more general feeling of tiredness and discomfort. You feel like your body isn't recovering and, often, that manifests itself in your activities; your lifts go down or things that seemed easy a few weeks ago suddenly get more difficult.

What you're experiencing right now is probably your body getting used to being active after such a long layoff.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: coreyb
I'm just worried that I've already went to hard because my ENTIRE body is sore since I started on Monday. It's getting a little better since last night's class though.

That's normal, when first starting up, or after a layoff like you had.

 

[StageLeft]

I read of somebody who says they had permanent muscle damage in their calves from trying forefoot running without building up to it. Maybe that was rhabdo.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I read of somebody who says they had permanent muscle damage in their calves from trying forefoot running without building up to it. Maybe that was rhabdo.

I don't know if rhabdo really leaves permanent muscle damage for the mostpart, but something like that would definitely hurt. The damaged soft tissue just liquifies as a toxic substance and pretty much poisons your cells and your kidneys. I was the sorest sore I've ever been when I had rhabdo and I had that for over a week. It took about 2 weeks for it to settle down. I never got checked out for kidney damage, but I was young and didn't know what it was until a while after.

Some people get rhabdo in a concentrated area (like Skoorb's example) from exercise or from trauma. With something like Muay Thai, you gotta be careful 'cause if you get it, it's gonna be full-body. Mine was full body and I seriously wanted to die. I couldn't walk, I couldn't turn, I couldn't swim, I couldn't lunge, I couldn't stand, I couldn't sit. It was terrible. Try to avoid that, lol.

 

[StageLeft]

Sounds like it was a good workout to me

I basically went from no forefooting to dropping 4-5 miles entirely on my calves. I was so sore I couldn't run for many days. I remember I couldn't walk without limping for something like 6 days. It was the sorest I'd ever been, and I've been sore before.

 

[njdevilsfan87]

First time in a while always results in that 2-3 period of sore muscles afterward.

 

[coreyb]

ok thanks a lot guys. I feel a lot better about it now. I'm really sore but no where near what you described SociallyChallenged. It's just the most sore I've ever been after a layoff. I happened to come in on a day where they extended the class a half hour and made us do endless burpees and padwork lol.

 

[coreyb]

while I have your attention. I was wondering about another problem I've had in the past. After a few weeks of muay thai my lower back starts to get really sore and I actually had to stop going because it was so sore I could barely sleep! Is it a weakness or something? I was thinking of going to physiotherapy if it happens again.

 

[coreyb]

it happens more often if I really push myself and kick and punch as hard as I can.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: coreyb
while I have your attention. I was wondering about another problem I've had in the past. After a few weeks of muay thai my lower back starts to get really sore and I actually had to stop going because it was so sore I could barely sleep! Is it a weakness or something? I was thinking of going to physiotherapy if it happens again.

Your back is one of the slowest things to repair plus you're constantly using it in daily life and in all movements in Muay Thai. You gotta either prevent it from getting that sore by going lighter or by trying contrast showers or you need to take some days off when it actually gets that sore.

Just coming into it, you probably shouldn't be throwing anything as hard as you can. You should work on your form most importantly and let your body adapt a bit more gradually than you're allowing it to.

 

[coreyb]

ok, I figured that's what I should do. It's hard when your instructors come around and say "harder!" or if your doing padwork with them and they make fun of you. You have to g go hard! But I'll see what I can do.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: coreyb
ok, I figured that's what I should do. It's hard when your instructors come around and say "harder!" or if your doing padwork with them and they make fun of you. You have to g go hard! But I'll see what I can do.

Your instructors don't know coaching very well then. Primary focus as you teach a new movement or as you allow someone to adapt is form only. As you increase intensity, form goes to crap. You must first get the form fairly spot on before you should increase intensity. I understand that they want to condition you, but you're new. When I went to my first Muay Thai sesh, he told me to settle down and focus on the movement. He has coached UFC fighters and has trained in Thailand. Get the form nearly perfected and by then you'll have adapted.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged

Originally posted by: coreyb
ok, I figured that's what I should do. It's hard when your instructors come around and say "harder!" or if your doing padwork with them and they make fun of you. You have to g go hard! But I'll see what I can do.

Your instructors don't know coaching very well then. Primary focus as you teach a new movement or as you allow someone to adapt is form only. As you increase intensity, form goes to crap. You must first get the form fairly spot on before you should increase intensity. I understand that they want to condition you, but you're new. When I went to my first Muay Thai sesh, he told me to settle down and focus on the movement. He has coached UFC fighters and has trained in Thailand. Get the form nearly perfected and by then you'll have adapted.

I don't think these are his first sessions, he seems to be returning after a layoff due to injury. Free council: I would not be so judgmental , as to make pronouncements on his trainers competency, if basing that accusation on the scant amount of information provided in this thread.

Because if the OP hasn't communicated with the instructor/s about his injury, they may think he is just a slacker. I know we had slacker in every dojo, gym, facility/whatever, that I ever worked out in, and when they showed up after being a no show for awhile, what the OP described sounds very much like what we did to them. If he has told them though, and they are pushing him hard despite a nagging injury, then they are just sadists. If he is actually a n00b, then never-mind

As you increase intensity, form goes to crap.

Only for those who lack proficiency, or when someone is fatigued.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged

Originally posted by: coreyb
ok, I figured that's what I should do. It's hard when your instructors come around and say "harder!" or if your doing padwork with them and they make fun of you. You have to g go hard! But I'll see what I can do.

Your instructors don't know coaching very well then. Primary focus as you teach a new movement or as you allow someone to adapt is form only. As you increase intensity, form goes to crap. You must first get the form fairly spot on before you should increase intensity. I understand that they want to condition you, but you're new. When I went to my first Muay Thai sesh, he told me to settle down and focus on the movement. He has coached UFC fighters and has trained in Thailand. Get the form nearly perfected and by then you'll have adapted.

I don't think these are his first sessions, he seems to be returning after a layoff due to injury. Free council: I would not be so judgmental , as to make pronouncements on his trainers competency, if basing that accusation on the scant amount of information provided in this thread.

Because if the OP hasn't communicated with the instructor/s about his injury, they may think he is just a slacker. I know we had slacker in every dojo, gym, facility/whatever, that I ever worked out in, and when they showed up after being a no show for awhile, what the OP described sounds very much like what we did to them. If he has told them though, and they are pushing him hard despite a nagging injury, then they are just sadists. If he is actually a n00b, then never-mind

As you increase intensity, form goes to crap.

Only for those who lack proficiency, or when someone is fatigued.

I assumed he was just getting into it. If he's not, then he needs to communicate that he is wary of overdoing it too soon.

And that's not entirely true about form. As you increase intensity, your form will always waiver especially if you are new to it. Like I said, I assumed he was new and in that case, he shouldn't really be trying to be all that intense about it until he gets his form in tip top shape.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged


And that's not entirely true about form. As you increase intensity, your form will always waiver

That is simply not a fact. You are saying e.g. I can't throw a back leg round kick to the body with bad intentions without the form breaking down? Horse shat.

Edit: I think I have thought of a way to explain my point. A power strike is meant to be thrown with bad intentions. Consequently the form used when that strike lands extremely hard, is the correct form, as that is the purpose of the technique.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged


And that's not entirely true about form. As you increase intensity, your form will always waiver

That is simply not a fact. You are saying e.g. I can't throw a back leg round kick to the body with bad intentions without the form breaking down? Horse shat.

Edit: I think I have thought of a way to explain my point. A power strike is meant to be thrown with bad intentions. Consequently the form used when that strike lands extremely hard, is the correct form, as that is the purpose of the technique.

I didn't say your form would always go to crap. I said it would always waiver. With people who are relatively inexperienced, they might throw a perfect punch at high intensity and then throw a terrible haymaker. It's inconsistent. As one gets more experienced, he or she will know how the punch is thrown at high intensity. They will throw the punch consistently a certain way. However as they approach maximum intensity, their form will become more inconsistent, sometimes being more spot on and sometimes being worse (the latter is the more probable).

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged


And that's not entirely true about form. As you increase intensity, your form will always waiver

That is simply not a fact. You are saying e.g. I can't throw a back leg round kick to the body with bad intentions without the form breaking down? Horse shat.

Edit: I think I have thought of a way to explain my point. A power strike is meant to be thrown with bad intentions. Consequently the form used when that strike lands extremely hard, is the correct form, as that is the purpose of the technique.

I didn't say your form would always go to crap. I said it would always waiver. With people who are relatively inexperienced, they might throw a perfect punch at high intensity and then throw a terrible haymaker. It's inconsistent. As one gets more experienced, he or she will know how the punch is thrown at high intensity. They will throw the punch consistently a certain way. However as they approach maximum intensity, their form will become more inconsistent, sometimes being more spot on and sometimes being worse (the latter is the more probable).

I'd add two examples to support SC's argument:

1. Instead of throwing one power strike, imagine you had to throw 30 in a row, as quickly as you possibly can. You think your form would be just as good on the first kick as on the 30th? It's possible that you will maintain perfect form for each kick, but it's more likely that as your leg fatigues and your heart starts pounding, your kicks will look uglier and uglier. This is especially true for a newbie who hasn't had enough practice to cement his form in place.

2. Deadlift is the classical case of form breakdown with increasing intensity. When I do sets of 3-6, my form usually stays pretty solid. If I try for a new 1RM, or try to do a set of 20, I will often start exhibiting various form errors, such as back rounding.