Over 50 And Out Of Work

[WhipperSnapper]

What the hell is middle class anyway? It is baloney.

I think it's possible to derive a definition. The middle class constitutes people who can comfortably afford to own a modest house, one decent car per adult, health insurance, and to support two children (for a married couple) without having much non-mortgage debt. They also have some sort of employment or at least career stability.

How does that sound?

 

[Red Dawn]

Well, our voting demographic is completely dwarfed by the massive "Who cares about tomorrow? I'm getting old and I want all my free shit now." demographic. And its a little hard to blame Gen Y since they've only been even able to vote for like 2 years. If we truly are a representative democracy it is a little hard to not place the majority of the blame on boomers.

Blame for what, that things aren't going to be Rainbows and Ice Cream? You afraid you might have to deal with things past generations had to deal with? Your future isn't as bleak as those who grew up during the Depression, had to deal with WWII, the Indian Wars, the Civil War, etc. Are you worried about where your next meal is coming from, if your children are going to die of the Measles, Cholera or Polio?

Your future is up to you, you can whine about it or you can do something about it. It's called sacrifice. The Boomers might not of had to deal with it but in our history they are the only generation that didn't.

 

[Zebo]

What the hell is middle class anyway? It is baloney.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class

@ Possum LOLZ no doubt...

 

[Zebo]

Blame for what, that things aren't going to be Rainbows and Ice Cream? You afraid you might have to deal with things past generations had to deal with? Your future isn't as bleak as those who grew up during the Depression, had to deal with WWII, the Indian Wars, the Civil War, etc. Are you worried about where your next meal is coming from, if your children are going to die of the Measles, Cholera or Polio?

Your future is up to you, you can whine about it or you can do something about it. It's called sacrifice. The Boomers might not of had to deal with it but in our history they are the only generation that didn't.

This is the truth. Boomers parents had misery to deal with..depression & WW2 and wanted their children to see none of that and did everything they could to prevent it....they were swept into Vietnam tho... so still worse than kids these days. Imagine 60K American kids dying and you're forced into it. Stop whining Y's it's pathetic. We have it good (I'm a Xer)

 

[alkemyst]

The problem is our whole emo/everyone wins existance makes that $25k middle class entry and that sadly includes dependents.

IMHO in most areas $50k would barely get you in, no dependents. Major metro areas living in the downtown areas, $75k...suburbia, $60k.

Middle class is getting harder to hit even in the last 15 years of my lifetime. In 1995, I bought a 3/2/2 with a pool on about 1/3 acre in a really nice area in Palm Beach County. I didn't even finish my degree, but had a ton of banking experience. I went to work as a white collar professional and made a decent living. My wife did as well. We were making less than half what I make now combined vs me alone. We had money for new cars, home theatre crap, furniture and going out. My position at the time was middle tier.

15 years later that same mid tier position can't come close to that. Now I am way past that same position's high tier and barely have a better life in my opinion (I worked 9-5 before nothing more).

The main problem we have today is too many bleeding hearts. In the past when a company went red, none of the C-Level (CEO, CFO, CTO, COO, CABC....) were compensated much. Today they say fuck that and take a bonus and salary based on "it could have been worse!". Then they lay off staff and force others to work harder. Those people then cry out and the people vote: "GIVE THEM A BAIL OUT!!!!" The C-Level folk start salivating....

rinse repeat. Your money just got worth less but the guy above you has twice it and the guy above him 4 fold.

 

[Zebo]

You should have finished your pharmacy degree alky...they make $60 an hour now which is 120K firmly middle class anywhere dependents or not. The main problem we have is it's hard without post secondary education and off shoring is the reason, putting food on foreign tables instead of our own for short term savings. But it's not really savings when they resort to public assistance or crime.

 

[alkemyst]

You should have finished your pharmacy degree alky...they make $60 an hour now which is 120K firmly middle class anywhere dependents or not. The main problem we have is it's hard without post secondary education and off shoring is the reason, putting food on foreign tables instead of our own for short term savings. But it's not really savings when they resort to public assistance or crime.

When I was interning back in the 90's no internet, just a bored pharmacist reading a book all day.

I have degrees now.

I have caught up.

 

[werepossum]

I think it's possible to derive a definition. The middle class constitutes people who can comfortably afford to own a modest house, one decent car per adult, health insurance, and to support two children (for a married couple) without having much non-mortgage debt. They also have some sort of employment or at least career stability.

How does that sound?

Sounds like a pretty good description to me. Zebo's link works well too. I also like the concept that the American middle class is the middle three income quintiles. Only problem with that is that it lacks working definition outside its own parameters; if 10% of the population averages $1 million in income and the other 90% earns $10K to $15K, then you'd have a middle class that is virtually indistinguishable from the lower class without a tax return. There should in my opinion be some qualifications other than purely income, and as alkemyst points out, income is highly relative to one's location. Turns out that while the term "middle class" is extremely important to us politically, socially and economically, defining it is not a trivial exercise.

The traditional definition is of course that class between the working class and those wealthy enough to not work, i.e. those salaried people between the working class who work with their physical labor and are paid hourly, and the gentry and nobility. But that definition doesn't work for us, where a plumber often makes far more than a floor salesman or many other white collar "middle class" jobs. I'd be surprised if that definition still works anywhere, really.

Blame for what, that things aren't going to be Rainbows and Ice Cream? You afraid you might have to deal with things past generations had to deal with? Your future isn't as bleak as those who grew up during the Depression, had to deal with WWII, the Indian Wars, the Civil War, etc. Are you worried about where your next meal is coming from, if your children are going to die of the Measles, Cholera or Polio?

Your future is up to you, you can whine about it or you can do something about it. It's called sacrifice. The Boomers might not of had to deal with it but in our history they are the only generation that didn't.

Very well said.

 

[PingSpike]

Blame for what, that things aren't going to be Rainbows and Ice Cream? You afraid you might have to deal with things past generations had to deal with? Your future isn't as bleak as those who grew up during the Depression, had to deal with WWII, the Indian Wars, the Civil War, etc. Are you worried about where your next meal is coming from, if your children are going to die of the Measles, Cholera or Polio?

Your future is up to you, you can whine about it or you can do something about it. It's called sacrifice. The Boomers might not of had to deal with it but in our history they are the only generation that didn't.

LOL. True, there isn't large scale consuming of lard soaked stale bread as a dinner substitute so things certainly have been worse. I was mostly responding to your ridiculous assertion that children that were legally not able to vote until recently and young adults who made up a tiny percentage of the population were to blame for our current leader's election. The crux of your argument appeared to be that they were all to busy "being angst ridden" to vote in such a way to counteract your generations crazy voting and were therefore to blame. I didn't really think you were serious though. I guess we should have locked you in a cellar on election day to save you from yourselves.

My real feeling is I'm not sure anyone really had much power to make things turn out any differently than they have. Let's face it we've been choosing between two increasingly similar douchebags for quite awhile now. Neither of them does things any differently. I disagree that the boomers won't have to deal with it though...if the ageism thing that this thread is about is as big as a problem as indicated it seems the attempt to retire before the shit hits the fan and then live off government programs has suffered a timing mishap.

 

[werepossum]

LOL. True, there isn't large scale consuming of lard soaked stale bread as a dinner substitute so things certainly have been worse. I was mostly responding to your ridiculous assertion that children that were legally not able to vote until recently and young adults who made up a tiny percentage of the population were to blame for our current leader's election. The crux of your argument appeared to be that they were all to busy "being angst ridden" to vote in such a way to counteract your generations crazy voting and were therefore to blame. I didn't really think you were serious though. I guess we should have locked you in a cellar on election day to save you from yourselves.

My real feeling is I'm not sure anyone really had much power to make things turn out any differently than they have. Let's face it we've been choosing between two increasingly similar douchebags for quite awhile now. Neither of them does things any differently. I disagree that the boomers won't have to deal with it though...if the ageism thing that this thread is about is as big as a problem as indicated it seems the attempt to retire before the shit hits the fan and then live off government programs has suffered a timing mishap.

Lard soaked stale bread? We used to DREAM of lard on our stale bread. Woulda been a feast to us.

 

[Red Dawn]

I was mostly responding to your ridiculous assertion that children that were legally not able to vote until recently and young adults who made up a tiny percentage of the population were to blame for our current leader's election. The crux of your argument appeared to be that they were all to busy "being angst ridden" to vote in such a way to counteract your generations crazy voting and were therefore to blame. I didn't really think you were serious though. I guess we should have locked you in a cellar on election day to save you from yourselves.

The crux of my argument that most of those who doing the whining about how there are going to be handed a shit sandwhich for their future are just that, whiners and complainers, not those who take a proactive approach which included being active politically by voting.

 

[Thump553]

Lard soaked stale bread? We used to DREAM of lard on our stale bread. Woulda been a feast to us.

Damn right. Nothing but white oleo-and that was on Sundays for a treat.

And uphill walk to school both ways-in the blizzards before global warming made it so much easier for you whippersnappers.

 

[Exterous]

Blame for what, that things aren't going to be Rainbows and Ice Cream? You afraid you might have to deal with things past generations had to deal with? Your future isn't as bleak as those who grew up during the Depression, had to deal with WWII, the Indian Wars, the Civil War, etc. Are you worried about where your next meal is coming from, if your children are going to die of the Measles, Cholera or Polio?

Your future is up to you, you can whine about it or you can do something about it. It's called sacrifice. The Boomers might not of had to deal with it but in our history they are the only generation that didn't.

So maybe your generation should stop whining about being over 50 and out of work Hey - things can't always be rainbows and ice cream. Your future isn't as bleak as the generations that came before you who didn't have social security, medicare or nearly as many health care advances

 

[Red Dawn]

So maybe your generation should stop whining about being over 50 and out of work Hey - things can't always be rainbows and ice cream. Your future isn't as bleak as the generations that came before you who didn't have social security, medicare or nearly as many health care advances

Alright youngin, we'll stop whining if you stop whining:whiste:

 

[Exterous]

The crux of my argument that most of those who doing the whining about how there are going to be handed a shit sandwhich for their future are just that, whiners and complainers, not those who take a proactive approach which included being active politically by voting.

Are you talking about people in this thread or just in general. In general I will agree with you. Too many people apathetic about their situations. Of course, I blame the parents for coddling the children, teaching them that they are oh so special, and not disciplining them. We have a large segment of the population that has no idea how to deal with a challenge

 

[Exterous]

Alright youngin, we'll stop whining if you stop whining:whiste:

You first old man - you have less time to stop whining

 

[Red Dawn]

Are you talking about people in this thread or just in general. In general I will agree with you. Too many people apathetic about their situations. Of course, I blame the parents for coddling the children, teaching them that they are oh so special, and not disciplining them. We have a large segment of the population that has no idea how to deal with a challenge

They'll learn.

 

[Exterous]

They'll learn.

I hate to say it but I honestly think that the current economic situation will make the upcoming generations realize that life is hard - it sure as hell isn't fair - and that they better work hard and plan well or life is gonna fuck them in the ass and not use lube. Then they pass that along to their kids and we end up with another generation that values education, hard work and personal responsibility from the start.

Or maybe I just really really hope thats what happens

 

[Red Dawn]

You first old man - you have less time to stop whining

Hey I have no complaints personally, my life is what I made out of it. To be perfectly honest I'd hire a younger person over somebody 50+, they are easier to manage and take advantage of.

 

[Zebo]

Found something interesting which melds pretty well with this thread. Lack of opportunity...high cost of education...maybe not seeing return of investment...

Mike Rowe from dirty jobs says blue collar skills are in decline but pay is going up accordingly.

Please take 5 minutes to watch it, and please forward it to someone in your life who may benefit from watching it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h_pp8CHEQ0&feature=player_embedded

 

[Jhhnn]

Found something interesting which melds pretty well with this thread. Lack of opportunity...high cost of education...maybe not seeing return of investment...

Mike Rowe from dirty jobs says blue collar skills are in decline but pay is going up accordingly.

Please take 5 minutes to watch it, and please forward it to someone in your life who may benefit from watching it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h_pp8CHEQ0&feature=player_embedded

One of the things Righties generally refuse to recognize is the role that Unions traditionally played in creating skilled labor. Contracts generally specified apprentices and ascending grades of craftsmen, who were trained on the job and sometimes after hours as well.

As the manufacturing base was shrunk, skilled labor was in over-supply, and capitalists didn't want to invest any more than necessary in employee training, anyway, since they've been planning on dumping as much American labor as soon as they possibly could offshore the work. And that's been possible in large part because executive compensation has grown so large in mega-corps that they don't need to have a long time horizon at all to become uber-wealthy. Screw the Company? That's the motto at the top. They'll ride their corporate steeds right into the dirt, whip 'em until they drop, then eat the carcass, find another to ride...

If you want to learn a trade today, you'll probably have to pay a private trade school to learn the basics before working in the field, so the elite will have you chained to the oars of the Debt Ship before you even get going...

So, uhh, all you debt slave suckas be sure to vote Republican, you hear? And believe, believe in the absolute goodness of your capitalist masters if you want a job at all.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

One of the things Righties generally refuse to recognize is the role that Unions traditionally played in creating skilled labor. Contracts generally specified apprentices and ascending grades of craftsmen, who were trained on the job and sometimes after hours as well.

As the manufacturing base was shrunk, skilled labor was in over-supply, and capitalists didn't want to invest any more than necessary in employee training, anyway, since they've been planning on dumping as much American labor as soon as they possibly could offshore the work. And that's been possible in large part because executive compensation has grown so large in mega-corps that they don't need to have a long time horizon at all to become uber-wealthy. Screw the Company? That's the motto at the top. They'll ride their corporate steeds right into the dirt, whip 'em until they drop, then eat the carcass, find another to ride...

If you want to learn a trade today, you'll probably have to pay a private trade school to learn the basics before working in the field, so the elite will have you chained to the oars of the Debt Ship before you even get going...

So, uhh, all you debt slave suckas be sure to vote Republican, you hear? And believe, believe in the absolute goodness of your capitalist masters if you want a job at all.

wrong, we acknowledge the past. But in today's world Unions don't create skilled labor. there may be some skilled labor that happens to be union but it's not about teaching skills it's about power.

 

[Jhhnn]

wrong, we acknowledge the past. But in today's world Unions don't create skilled labor. there may be some skilled labor that happens to be union but it's not about teaching skills it's about power.

Really? Seems to me you just denied the past, and seem to think that skilled labor will somehow arise from our current methods, when it demonstrably doesn't. Modern American capitalists shirk their duty to their shareholders and their country by not investing some of their own in creating skills here at home. That's why they love H1B visas & illegals- they get the benefit of other countries' investment in their workers' training and education at reduced cost.

Even here in Colorado, which isn't really a Union state at all, the vast majority of plumbers, pipefitters, electricians, ironworkers & etc earned their credentials in Union shops, even if they don't work in one any more. And the non-Union shops aren't creating more skilled workers, either, they're merely using up the ones they have...

Lack of skills as an offshoring excuse is a self fulfilling prophecy, induced by the behavior of business.

 

[pcgeek11]

Even here in Colorado, which isn't really a Union state at all, the vast majority of plumbers, pipefitters, electricians, ironworkers & etc earned their credentials in Union shops, even if they don't work in one any more. And the non-Union shops aren't creating more skilled workers, either, they're merely using up the ones they have...

Lack of skills as an offshoring excuse is a self fulfilling prophecy, induced by the behavior of business.

Not true in all cases.

I work in the south eastern USA ( non Union ) right to work state. The company I work for is a world wide manufacturer of automotive products. This company has been around for 125 years this year.

We create our own skilled labor in our Apprenticeship Programs which includes Mechanics, CNC Operators / Programmers, Electronics Techs ...

Just so you know.

 

[soundforbjt]

Not true in all cases.

I work in the south eastern USA ( non Union ) right to work state. The company I work for is a world wide manufacturer of automotive products. This company has been around for 125 years this year.

We create our own skilled labor in our Apprenticeship Programs which includes Mechanics, CNC Operators / Programmers, Electronics Techs ...

Just so you know.

Probably an exception, and not the average rule.