Over 50 And Out Of Work

[Zebo]

Is this story about Canada?

 

[yllus]

Does only the United States have workers over the age of 50? In any case, here's the graph for the United States:

Still a significantly lower level than the 18-64 bracket.

 

[Exterous]

nm

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Up until now we've increased consumption to offset the increases in production efficiencies to keep the economy going. But here we are, in the midst of the technological revolution, increasing production efficiency exponentially more, and consumers are already maxed out from just keeping up with the production levels of before. Our economy continues to evolve into one that increasingly only needs people for the consumption side of the cycle, while largely automation, technology, and few actual people take care of the production side. This cuts off the majority of people from employment and wealth creation.

It also reduces the prices of goods and services since labor costs would no longer be as large of a factor, leaving people with more money to spend on other things. Ultimately, other than the costs of profits and natural resources, all of the expense of a good and service is the cost of human labor in some sort of a way.

What I do wonder about is the effect of increased resource costs on all of this. It is possible that the standard of living could decrease, not primarily as a result of technological advance and automation, but rather as a result of Malthusian forces--a great demand for increasingly scare resources.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Production costs do not determine prices. Prices are determined by supply and demand. There's an assumption that lower production costs lead to higher supply that leads to lower prices, but it's not necessarily the case, and is rarely an equally proportional change between the two when it is. Those who control supply control prices.

 

[werepossum]

Production costs do not determine prices. Prices are determined by supply and demand. There's an assumption that lower production costs lead to higher supply that leads to lower prices, but it's not necessarily the case, and is rarely an equally proportional change between the two when it is. Those who control supply control prices.

That's not completely true. Prices are set by what suppliers will take and consumers will pay; neither party has complete control. Nonetheless, WhipperSnapper has a valid point; resource costs set a bottom. As resources become more scarce and thus expensive to procure, costs must rise. If consumers are unwilling or unable to pay at least the cost of production, the good or service will disappear from the market, absent government subsidy or other action. Where resource costs set a higher bottom, so that price must go up, demand almost inevitably falls as fewer people find the good or service worth the new, higher price.

 

[shortylickens]

I used to feel sorry for myself but by the time the economy turns around I will still be young.
These guys are gonna be in serious trouble.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

That's not completely true. Prices are set by what suppliers will take and consumers will pay; neither party has complete control.

Right, prices are set by supply and demand. And no, it's not a complete control. But producer control of supply is active and deliberate while consumer control of demand is passive and disorganized. Thus producers can and do collectively manipulate supply to shift prices to their favor. It's the same effect as monopoly pricing.

Well my graph isn't showing up, but it's here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly#Monopoly_and_efficiency

Nonetheless, WhipperSnapper has a valid point; resource costs set a bottom. As resources become more scarce and thus expensive to procure, costs must rise. If consumers are unwilling or unable to pay at least the cost of production, the good or service will disappear from the market, absent government subsidy or other action. Where resource costs set a higher bottom, so that price must go up, demand almost inevitably falls as fewer people find the good or service worth the new, higher price.

I don't necessarily disagree with you or WhipperSnapper on this second point.

 

[werepossum]

Right, prices are set by supply and demand. And no, it's not a complete control. But producer control supply is active and deliberate while consumer control demand is passive and disorganize. Thus producer's can and do collectively manipulate supply to shift prices to their favor.



I don't necessarily disagree with you or WhipperSnapper on this second point.

Yes, absent of lobbying the government for protection, the two powers a supplier has are advertising and manipulating supply.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

I used to feel sorry for myself but by the time the economy turns around I will still be young.
These guys are gonna be in serious trouble.

...If it turns around. It might not. The overall trend seems to be downward.

Also, note that you had to pay much much higher tuition to go to college than the older people did for far worse job prospects an a much lower return-on-investment (on average).

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Also, note that you had to pay much much higher tuition to go to college than the older people did for far worse job prospects an a much lower return-on-investment (on average).

That's an interesting point. I'm dubious of the claims of higher education, as I've seen too many people go deep into debt and come away with nothing to show for it (I'm looking at you, MBA). At this stage, I would never get an MBA or another grad degree unless my employer picked up the tab. It is just too risky otherwise.

 

[shortylickens]

That's an interesting point. I'm dubious of the claims of higher education, as I've seen too many people go deep into debt and come away with nothing to show for it (I'm looking at you, MBA). At this stage, I would never get an MBA or another grad degree unless my employer picked up the tab. It is just too risky otherwise.

For many years about 3/4 of a doctors income goes to their college loans.

 

[Alienwho]

Eff the ill prepared baby boomers. They need to step down anyway to make way for the new generation.

The baby boomers have nobody to blame but themselves. They have single handedly destroyed what made America great in a single generation. They are the ones who decided the natural family unit of a father who provides for the family while the wife nurtures the children wasn't good enough. No. Now women needed to be in the work place too, thus causing greater competition and decreased salary rates. No longer can a family survive on one income.

These same baby boomers who are getting screwed over by the lack of loyalty from a company to a worker is the same loyalty these boomers have shown to their family. If you think it's okay to divorce your family and force your wife into working to support herself why should your company ever have to remain faithful to you?

All of these issues can be traced back to the complete disregard of the nuclear family unit, practiced by the vain and selfish boomers and perfected by the bastard children they 'raised'.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

That's an interesting point. I'm dubious of the claims of higher education, as I've seen too many people go deep into debt and come away with nothing to show for it (I'm looking at you, MBA). At this stage, I would never get an MBA or another grad degree unless my employer picked up the tab. It is just too risky otherwise.

Yeah. 30 or 40 years ago you could go to college without graduating with much debt. It's very different now. Add law degrees (JD) to the list of degrees that are no longer worthwhile. I know that the cost of law school has skyrocketed (think $35,000/year for tuition at many schools with some even asking for $45,000/year). In the meantime the number of people who have that degree is huge, so most graduates will never get to work in the field and are liable to spend decades burdened by massive student loan debts.

Heck, even PhD. scientists have been complaining about difficulty finding jobs in their fields commensurate with their education for at least two decades now.

This is what happens when a nation's economy slowly collapses and people rush into the colleges hoping to educate themselves above the rising tide of economic misery (and decreasing amount of middle class jobs).

 

[Muse]

I agree with you, but I still believe they are at fault for not developing a plan B at least...

That's easy to say but it's hard enough to have a functioning plan A these days that most people don't do much work on their plan B. When the Plan A rug is pulled out from under them it's "oops." If they're over 50 it's harder, a lot harder to adjust, start over, retrain, develop a new life style, etc. 20 and 30 year olds can do it, but it's not easy. When you're over 50 it is daunting and add to that the fact that employers look at you and figure they don't want to take a chance on you at best. Usually, they won't even consider hiring you unless you somehow fit their needs, which isn't likely in most circumstances.

 

[Muse]

Eff the ill prepared baby boomers. They need to step down anyway to make way for the new generation.

The baby boomers have nobody to blame but themselves. They have single handedly destroyed what made America great in a single generation. They are the ones who decided the natural family unit of a father who provides for the family while the wife nurtures the children wasn't good enough. No. Now women needed to be in the work place too, thus causing greater competition and decreased salary rates. No longer can a family survive on one income.

These same baby boomers who are getting screwed over by the lack of loyalty from a company to a worker is the same loyalty these boomers have shown to their family. If you think it's okay to divorce your family and force your wife into working to support herself why should your company ever have to remain faithful to you?

All of these issues can be traced back to the complete disregard of the nuclear family unit, practiced by the vain and selfish boomers and perfected by the bastard children they 'raised'.

Hey, man, you need help! My advice is to chill somewhere comfortable for a few days and down a good healthy dose of some psychedelic drug. You need to get fucked up! Good luck!

 

[Vette73]

For many years about 3/4 of a doctors income goes to their college loans.

Differance is the AMA has made sure there is always a shortage of doctors to keep rates high. So getting a Med degree will pay off unless you are just really bad/lazy.

A MBA is not the same thing.

 

[Doppel]

That's an interesting point. I'm dubious of the claims of higher education, as I've seen too many people go deep into debt and come away with nothing to show for it (I'm looking at you, MBA). At this stage, I would never get an MBA or another grad degree unless my employer picked up the tab. It is just too risky otherwise.

It is, but what else are you going to do?

I got a few emails back and forth with a friend recently who was pointing out the "scam" of higher education, the for-profits and all that--and she was in many areas right. But unfortunately all of that about the ridiculous tuitions, the bad job prospects, etc. is trumped by the fact that no matter how bad it is for a college grad with debt it's a whole lot f**king more dire if you have a high school degree--with few exceptions (e.g certain trades but I'm not aware of the actual numbers behind them). I'll cushion the debt blow for my kids by having some portion of their tuition ready and also school from early on to not waste time with a useless degree (i.e. most of those in arts).

For many years about 3/4 of a doctors income goes to their college loans.

Yeah, but then it goes into house and nice car. Medical profession doesn't seem terribly high return, though, for the hours/stress one puts in.

I'll point out that average college graduate has $24k in debt now. Not great, but could be worse. With their crap job prospects it is a lot of money, though.

 

[alkemyst]

Hey, man, you need help! My advice is to chill somewhere comfortable for a few days and down a good healthy dose of some psychedelic drug. You need to get fucked up! Good luck!

Alienwho if you are one of the many over 18 that still live at home you are now contributing to the same thing.

Just as when wives started working, having extra adults living in the same home adds a ton of disposable income to the family unit. Almost all of these child-adults will claim they are 'saving', but most are spending a great deal on toys and have almost no savings at all.

While the idea started with the baby boomers, it was hardly all their faults. Once a high enough percentage did that, everyone was forced to play along.

I do agree that was the shift that really destroyed the balance here, especially now with twice as many workers, twice as many going to college, etc.

It used to be the blue collar guy could bust his hump to raise his family in a perhaps crappy house, but by late 30's/40's be able to upgrade and maybe get a Cadillac of his own.

The white collar guy had to do his 4 years of college (which wasn't as spoonfed as today), usually bust his ass working while doing it to pay from some shitastic apartment...then put in a good 3-4 years in a company to get his first 'title'. With that title brought some late nights, business trips, etc, but he was able to buy a nice house, couple cars and raise 2-4 kids pretty comfortably.

Both 'guys' knew if they put their time in they'd get a pension of some sort. Both 'guys' knew they'd get raises along those years and not have to worry about getting fired for doing a good job. Layoffs did happen, but were rare and you usually saw them coming. Today's 'RIF' (reduction in force) is a nice way to say...well we could keep you on-staff, but we want our bonuses...so please don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

 

[pcgeek11]

Hey, man, you need help! My advice is to chill somewhere comfortable for a few days and down a good healthy dose of some psychedelic drug. You need to get fucked up! Good luck!

He is already F***ed Up.

I raised my family on one income and my wife remained home to care for our kid and home. It wasn't always easy but we did fine.

Women made the choice to go to work and have careers and their own money to be able to support themselves when needed.

It amazes me all the hate in here you kids have for your own parents and grandparents. It seems to me that you are the ones that need some serious help ( mental ). You are the needy generation that want everything handed to you on a silver platter. You go to school and as soon as you graduate you Expect to be living the lifestyle your parents had to work years to develop and if it doesn't happen you whine on an internet forum about how the baby boomers fucked you out of your just due.

From a late baby boomer to all the whiners ( you know who you are ) Fuck Off and enjoy your shitty life.

/rant

 

[WhipperSnapper]

It is, but what else are you going to do?

What good does taking on student loan debt that can never be discharged in bankruptcy do you if there are few entry-level jobs available in the field and the field is glutted? Just because someone has "nothing else to do" with their undergraduate degree (or mere high school diploma) isn't a sufficient reason for taking this kind of toxic debt. (Student loan debt may be the worst possible debt because you can't get rid of it.)

I got a few emails back and forth with a friend recently who was pointing out the "scam" of higher education, the for-profits and all that--and she was in many areas right. But unfortunately all of that about the ridiculous tuitions, the bad job prospects, etc. is trumped by the fact that no matter how bad it is for a college grad with debt it's a whole lot f**king more dire if you have a high school degree--with few exceptions (e.g certain trades but I'm not aware of the actual numbers behind them).

A person with a high school degree doesn't have the non-dischargeable student loan debt. Is it better to work a crappy $9/hour job with a high school degree or to work a crappy $9/hour job with a college degree and student loan debt?

I'll cushion the debt blow for my kids by having some portion of their tuition ready and also school from early on to not waste time with a useless degree (i.e. most of those in arts).

Even many "useful degrees" are for fields that are glutted. People with business degrees are a dime-a-dozen. Science seems sexy but it's also a glutted field. The legal profession is regarded by many attorneys as a dead or dying field and it is severely over-glutted.

The Real Science Gap
Young Scientists' Issues (NPR audio)

Medical profession doesn't seem terribly high return, though, for the hours/stress one puts in.

It can be very lucrative if you become a specialist. Regardless, becoming a physician has a high return in that if you graduate from an allopathic medical school in the U.S. and pass your residency, you have an almost 100% guarantee of landing a six-figure job or even a $150,000+ job to start.

I agree that the return on investment isn't that amazing when you consider the hours and stress, but part of the return on investment is the job security, career security, and social status. Besides, what jobs today don't have stress, and what white collar jobs don't have long hours?

I'll point out that average college graduate has $24k in debt now. Not great, but could be worse. With their crap job prospects it is a lot of money, though.

$24,000 won't even cover the yearly tuition for many professional degrees. I'm pretty sure that most law school cost more than $24,000/year. Some are even up to $46,000/year now and some of those are third and fourth tier toilets. From what I've seen MBA programs are also expensive. Then you need to add in cost of living expenses. A four year undergrad degree alone probably has $40,000-60,000 worth of cost of living expenses for those four years.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Besides, what jobs today don't have stress, and what white collar jobs don't have long hours?

Mine can have quite a bit of stress, but hours are generally around the 40 hour mark. Every time I start looking for more money or where the grass might be greener, I come back to the realization that even though I could make more money elsewhere, this job is probably about as secure as it can get and as someone who is 40 and has a wife, house, etc. to take care of, that means a lot. The pay isn't at the top given the job responsibilities but the benefits are outstanding.

Over the last few years, I've tried to figure out what to do next. I'm in IT and my focus has always been to get out of the technical trenches. How do I do that? As we've discussed in this thread, an MBA is almost financial suicide unless your company foots the bill for it or makes generous promises of raises/promotions once you get it. So, last fall, I decided to focus on the PMP certification as, IMO, that has one of the highest ROIs available. If I get the cert and don't get a raise at my current workplace or another good job offer, I'm only out a couple thousand. I've kind of strayed from this strategy recently but after the events of last week, I think I will renew my focus and make it happen. As a 40 year-old, I just don't have much time left to decide what I want to do.

 

[alkemyst]

$24,000 won't even cover the yearly tuition for many professional degrees. I'm pretty sure that most law school cost more than $24,000/year. Some are even up to $46,000/year now and some of those are third and fourth tier toilets. From what I've seen MBA programs are also expensive. Then you need to add in cost of living expenses. A four year undergrad degree alone probably has $40,000-60,000 worth of cost of living expenses for those four years.

The poster said average college student and he is correct. Also you are assuming no free money nor students working partially/having prior savings.

My first 7 years of college (3 at a junior college and 4 more at University of Florida), left me about $7k in debt. Prior to starting I was already working two jobs and had savings. Once in college I had worked up to a hourly level 3 times minimum wage or so. Working the summer provided much of what I needed the following term.

I'd didn't own a expensive car I in fact sold my performance car and bought a bike...it was a college town and I was 5-10 mins from campus riding.

My second go at college was a little less than 2 years at FAU, that cost me about $30k. I qualified for no free money, I choose to not work to go full time every available term, and I had bills to pay.

With Law and Medicine you can easily look at $100-200k in debt if you have to borrow it all. For an MBA, that should be 1-2 years on top of whatever 4 year. Most people are working already when they decide to do it and many companies cover that as well.

 

[Exterous]

It amazes me all the hate in here you kids have for your own parents and grandparents. It seems to me that you are the ones that need some serious help ( mental ). You are the needy generation that want everything handed to you on a silver platter. You go to school and as soon as you graduate you Expect to be living the lifestyle your parents had to work years to develop and if it doesn't happen you whine on an internet forum about how the baby boomers fucked you out of your just due.

From a late baby boomer to all the whiners ( you know who you are ) Fuck Off and enjoy your shitty life.

/rant

Maybe we just expected our parents and grandparents to do a better job of running the country and we are slightly annoyed that you ruined everything

 

[pcgeek11]

Maybe we just expected our parents and grandparents to do a better job of running the country and we are slightly annoyed that you ruined everything

You don't have a clue obviously.

As I said before:
From a late baby boomer to all the whiners ( you know who you are ) Fuck Off and enjoy your shitty life.