Outsourcing of American jobs.......

[CrazyDe1]

It's a fact of life things are outsourced. Deal with it, move on, better yourself.

The simple fact is it's mostly CS jobs that are outsourced. Look at it this way. Anyone can pick up a book and learn to write C, Java, VB code at a competent level. It doesn't take a whole lot to outsource these jobs. Civil, mechanical, chemical, electrical, computer engineering jobs are still out there and still exist. Eventually, people will deal with it and adapt. Face it, if it's cheaper and more economical to outsource jobs it will happen. Imagine if there was a mandate that made it so all american clothing companies had to make their clothes in the US. First of all all your clothes would cost way too much and second of all these companies wouldn't be competitive at all and would go out of business.

When it gets down to it it's better to have US companies still competing and making money while outsourcing jobs than to have these companies completely based in foreign countries. Just wait, something will take the place of these IT jobs and then those jobs will be outsourced...this cycle will go on forever.

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

The net result is that trade is better OVERALL for both countries who do the trading. Of course if you only focus on the people who are hurt and ignore the benefits then yes trade looks horrible.

It's "more better" for the country that sucks balls in the first place though Look at Mexico. If we opened the borders up entirely Mexico would be better off, while the US would become more like mexico!

Well without the "The Americas Free/Fair Trade Agreement" The US is going to be steeply outpaced by the Europeans. If the US reverts to populism and protectionism, the US WILL be left in the dust by the rest of the world. Thats a FACT.

Right now the US is in between a rock and a hard place. We need to tread carefully. If we become protectionist, we will suffer. If we dont do something to shrink the trade deficit, we will suffer.

And the trade deficit and outsourcing has nothing to do with Bush. We would be in the same exact situation if Gore was Pres, or if Clinton could have had a third term. This is a trend that is long running and is long term. I single two term president wouldnt be able to control it, let alone 3 years.

 

[CrazyDe1]

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: Skoorb

The net result is that trade is better OVERALL for both countries who do the trading. Of course if you only focus on the people who are hurt and ignore the benefits then yes trade looks horrible.

It's "more better" for the country that sucks balls in the first place though Look at Mexico. If we opened the borders up entirely Mexico would be better off, while the US would become more like mexico!

Well without the "The Americas Free/Fair Trade Agreement" The US is going to be steeply outpaced by the Europeans. If the US reverts to populism and protectionism, the US WILL be left in the dust by the rest of the world. Thats a FACT.

Right now the US is in between a rock and a hard place. We need to tread carefully. If we become protectionist, we will suffer. If we dont do something to shrink the trade deficit, we will suffer.

Exactly. We're going to have to learn to deal with it and putting measures in place that delay us from dealing with this is just hurting us in the long run.

 

[BadNewsBears]

There needs to be an offshoring review board. They need to review the benefits and loses, when a company want to put more than 20 jobs overseas. And they either approve it or dont.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: Skoorb

The net result is that trade is better OVERALL for both countries who do the trading. Of course if you only focus on the people who are hurt and ignore the benefits then yes trade looks horrible.

It's "more better" for the country that sucks balls in the first place though Look at Mexico. If we opened the borders up entirely Mexico would be better off, while the US would become more like mexico!

Well without the "The Americas Free/Fair Trade Agreement" The US is going to be steeply outpaced by the Europeans. If the US reverts to populism and protectionism, the US WILL be left in the dust by the rest of the world. Thats a FACT.

Right now the US is in between a rock and a hard place. We need to tread carefully. If we become protectionist, we will suffer. If we dont do something to shrink the trade deficit, we will suffer.

And the trade deficit and outsourcing has nothing to do with Bush. We would be in the same exact situation if Gore was Pres, or if Clinton could have had a third term. This is a trend that is long running and is long term. I single two term president wouldnt be able to control it, let alone 3 years.

What you're really saying and supporting is that America and Americans are weak little turds and can't produce our own own product and stay current in High Tech. Shame on you, shame on us for letting that be exactly the case.

We are now number 11 in High Speed Internet Access deployment and dropping fast. That is just one are we are falling by the wayside in a heartbeat. Soon the U.S. will be nothing but a parasite, depending on the rest of the world to feed it like low life leech. Hope you're proud.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: Skoorb

The net result is that trade is better OVERALL for both countries who do the trading. Of course if you only focus on the people who are hurt and ignore the benefits then yes trade looks horrible.

It's "more better" for the country that sucks balls in the first place though Look at Mexico. If we opened the borders up entirely Mexico would be better off, while the US would become more like mexico!

Well without the "The Americas Free/Fair Trade Agreement" The US is going to be steeply outpaced by the Europeans. If the US reverts to populism and protectionism, the US WILL be left in the dust by the rest of the world. Thats a FACT.

Right now the US is in between a rock and a hard place. We need to tread carefully. If we become protectionist, we will suffer. If we dont do something to shrink the trade deficit, we will suffer.

And the trade deficit and outsourcing has nothing to do with Bush. We would be in the same exact situation if Gore was Pres, or if Clinton could have had a third term. This is a trend that is long running and is long term. I single two term president wouldnt be able to control it, let alone 3 years.

What you're really saying and supporting is that America and Americans are weak little turds and can't produce our own own product and stay current in High Tech. Shame on you, shame on us for letting that be exactly the case.

We are now number 11 in High Speed Internet Access deployment and dropping fast. That is just one are we are falling by the wayside in a heartbeat. Soon the U.S. will be nothing but a parasite, depending on the rest of the world to feed it like low life leech. Hope you're proud.

Our high-tech jobs are not being outsourced. IT is not high-tech.

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: Skoorb

The net result is that trade is better OVERALL for both countries who do the trading. Of course if you only focus on the people who are hurt and ignore the benefits then yes trade looks horrible.

It's "more better" for the country that sucks balls in the first place though Look at Mexico. If we opened the borders up entirely Mexico would be better off, while the US would become more like mexico!

Well without the "The Americas Free/Fair Trade Agreement" The US is going to be steeply outpaced by the Europeans. If the US reverts to populism and protectionism, the US WILL be left in the dust by the rest of the world. Thats a FACT.

Right now the US is in between a rock and a hard place. We need to tread carefully. If we become protectionist, we will suffer. If we dont do something to shrink the trade deficit, we will suffer.

And the trade deficit and outsourcing has nothing to do with Bush. We would be in the same exact situation if Gore was Pres, or if Clinton could have had a third term. This is a trend that is long running and is long term. I single two term president wouldnt be able to control it, let alone 3 years.

What you're really saying and supporting is that America and Americans are weak little turds and can't produce our own own product and stay current in High Tech. Shame on you, shame on us for letting that be exactly the case.

We are now number 11 in High Speed Internet Access deployment and dropping fast. That is just one are we are falling by the wayside in a heartbeat. Soon the U.S. will be nothing but a parasite, depending on the rest of the world to feed it like low life leech. Hope you're proud.

Ummm how do you get that out of what I said.

We arent only current in high tech, but we still LEAD the way. With what, 58% of the worlds R&D taking place IN THE US. High tech != IT, programming, or computers.

As for high speed internet access. WTF does the gauge? We havent deployed it all that much, because unlike other countries, companies in the US arent being subsidized to do it.

 

[athithi]

Originally posted by: rh71
we're already international, dude.

What can I say, it's just a huge business machine It doesn't care if I do the work or my doppelganger in India does it

 

[Siddhartha]

Originally posted by: dullard
Trade is a two way street. Some people are hurt and many others benefit. The net result is that trade is better OVERALL for both countries who do the trading. Of course if you only focus on the people who are hurt and ignore the benefits then yes trade looks horrible.

Think of it this way. I go into stores. Almost everytime I leave with less money! What a tragedy! Stores are horrible, evil things making me lose my money. Oh wait, I forgot I got things in return...

Yeah, outsourcing of jobs makes sound economic\free market sense until it YOUR job that is being moved to a lower cost labor market.

 

[StageLeft]

Hmm, this thread actually contains some poignant posts; I think I'll read some of them

 

[bigdog1218]

I can't believe people complain about this so much, economic freedom like this is the reason why the US is where it is today. If all these companies moved their jobs back to the US you would all complain about how expenisve everything is.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: Munchies
There needs to be an offshoring review board. They need to review the benefits and loses, when a company want to put more than 20 jobs overseas. And they either approve it or dont.

Let me get this straight. You want to put the government in charge of how businesses expand in this country? The same government that panders to big business and special interest groups? The same government that couldn't make costs equal profits if its life depended on it?

 

[SherEPunjab]

Shockwave,

Care to base your statement on data? No? I will:



Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

Link 4 "its safe to say that without Indian immigrants the valley wouldn't be what it is today" This has been said by Melanie Warner, who did a report on it for Fortune, Anna Lee Saxenian, a professor who did studies on immigrants and their effect on Silicone Valley, and others. Michael Lewis, a Berkeley professor states in his book, "New New Thing" "the definitive smell of curry in Silicon Valley... about half the startups are indian..."

Link 5 "40% of Silicon Valley startup companies are "indian spawned", half from IIT alumni..."

Okay, now here's some quick facts:

The "father" of the Pentium processor is Vinod Dham (As far as I recall, the Pentium was a huge leap forward with respect to processing power, this alone was significant)
Hotmail founded by Sabeer Bhatia, sold to MS for 400mn
Sun Microsystems: founded by Vinod Khosla/Scott McNealy
Excelan: founded by Kanwal Rekhi
AT&T Bell Labs President & former Lucent Tech. CTO (cheif tech. officer): Arun Netravali
CEO and founder of I2 Systems, Sanjiv Sidhu
Juniper Networks founder Pradeep Sindhu
Sycamore Networks founder: Gururaj Deshpande
President and CEO of Computer Associates (CA) and owner of NHL team Islanders, Sanjay Kumar Sanjay Kumar
Suhas Patil, Chairman of Board of Cirrus Logic.

These are the "big boys." All Billion Dollar, TAX PAYING, LARGE EMPLOYING companies. I know I missed many other huge/significant to the U.S. Tech Industry companies founded/co-founded by Indians. Don't have the time to look all fo them up. These were readily available. Oh, and for every one of these guys, there are probably 1,000 that didn't make it THIS big, but still employ thousands of people, and were very significant to making the Silicon Valley what it is.

Interesting tidbits:
"32% of Bay-Area?s high-tech work force is Indian
34% of MICROSOFT employees are Indians
32% of NASA employees are Indians
28% of IBM employees are Indians
17% of INTEL employees are Indians " Source
Creator of WebMD site is Pavan Nigam.
The creator of THIS site is Anand Lal Shimpi
Indian American population: between .6 - .7% of the U.S. Population (roughly 1.7 million)

This should provide you with ample reading material shockwave. If I haven't given a link, i've supplied the names you need to google it and verify it on your own time. Now, in typical AT fashion, I'm sure you will reject all this, and come up with a one or two liner smart a55 comment. Before you do so, keep in mind all of my sources were non-indian related (not written by Indians or Indian Americans), 3rd party sources, including the studies by the professors about the contributions Indian immigrants made to our IT industry. These people studied the impact in the Silicone Valley primarily, and so their findings didn't even include the significant companies that are spread out around the entire U.S., from California to New York, From Detroit, to Dallas. And these examples I have provided dont even count the numerous companies that were bought out, merged, or provided crucial technology to other, larger, more recognizable companies that the common public has heard of. For this reason, i have only put the big names on this list, because to go through company mergers, aquisitions, and transferring of technology will be a major undertaking in itself - and, in each and every one of those aspects, the work of Indian Americans has been crucial, not so-so important, not 'it helped,' VERY IMPORTANT. Disagree? Prove it. Provide data, links, evidence.

I'm not going to discount the work other people, but before people jump on the lets bash India bandwagon, think what India has lost over the past 30 years, then tell me who the winner is at the end of the day.


-SeP

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: Skoorb

The net result is that trade is better OVERALL for both countries who do the trading. Of course if you only focus on the people who are hurt and ignore the benefits then yes trade looks horrible.

It's "more better" for the country that sucks balls in the first place though Look at Mexico. If we opened the borders up entirely Mexico would be better off, while the US would become more like mexico!

Well without the "The Americas Free/Fair Trade Agreement" The US is going to be steeply outpaced by the Europeans. If the US reverts to populism and protectionism, the US WILL be left in the dust by the rest of the world. Thats a FACT.

Right now the US is in between a rock and a hard place. We need to tread carefully. If we become protectionist, we will suffer. If we dont do something to shrink the trade deficit, we will suffer.

And the trade deficit and outsourcing has nothing to do with Bush. We would be in the same exact situation if Gore was Pres, or if Clinton could have had a third term. This is a trend that is long running and is long term. I single two term president wouldnt be able to control it, let alone 3 years.

What you're really saying and supporting is that America and Americans are weak little turds and can't produce our own own product and stay current in High Tech. Shame on you, shame on us for letting that be exactly the case.

We are now number 11 in High Speed Internet Access deployment and dropping fast. That is just one are we are falling by the wayside in a heartbeat. Soon the U.S. will be nothing but a parasite, depending on the rest of the world to feed it like low life leech. Hope you're proud.

Ummm how do you get that out of what I said.

We arent only current in high tech, but we still LEAD the way. With what, 58% of the worlds R&D taking place IN THE US. High tech != IT, programming, or computers.

As for high speed internet access. WTF does the gauge? We havent deployed it all that much, because unlike other countries, companies in the US arent being subsidized to do it.

58% and going down FAST. But you and a few others will be happy when it drops to ZERO.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: Skoorb

The net result is that trade is better OVERALL for both countries who do the trading. Of course if you only focus on the people who are hurt and ignore the benefits then yes trade looks horrible.

It's "more better" for the country that sucks balls in the first place though Look at Mexico. If we opened the borders up entirely Mexico would be better off, while the US would become more like mexico!

Well without the "The Americas Free/Fair Trade Agreement" The US is going to be steeply outpaced by the Europeans. If the US reverts to populism and protectionism, the US WILL be left in the dust by the rest of the world. Thats a FACT.

Right now the US is in between a rock and a hard place. We need to tread carefully. If we become protectionist, we will suffer. If we dont do something to shrink the trade deficit, we will suffer.

And the trade deficit and outsourcing has nothing to do with Bush. We would be in the same exact situation if Gore was Pres, or if Clinton could have had a third term. This is a trend that is long running and is long term. I single two term president wouldnt be able to control it, let alone 3 years.

What you're really saying and supporting is that America and Americans are weak little turds and can't produce our own own product and stay current in High Tech. Shame on you, shame on us for letting that be exactly the case.

We are now number 11 in High Speed Internet Access deployment and dropping fast. That is just one are we are falling by the wayside in a heartbeat. Soon the U.S. will be nothing but a parasite, depending on the rest of the world to feed it like low life leech. Hope you're proud.

Ummm how do you get that out of what I said.

We arent only current in high tech, but we still LEAD the way. With what, 58% of the worlds R&D taking place IN THE US. High tech != IT, programming, or computers.

As for high speed internet access. WTF does the gauge? We havent deployed it all that much, because unlike other countries, companies in the US arent being subsidized to do it.

58% and going down FAST. But you and a few others will be happy when it drops to ZERO.

Why don't you contribute in the research then? It can never go down to zero, we have the best academic institutions in the world.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Why don't you contribute in the research then? It can never go down to zero, we have the best academic institutions in the world.

To do that, he'd have to be qualified to do work in an area other than hysteric proclaiments that the sky is falling.

 

[SherEPunjab]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: Skoorb

The net result is that trade is better OVERALL for both countries who do the trading. Of course if you only focus on the people who are hurt and ignore the benefits then yes trade looks horrible.

It's "more better" for the country that sucks balls in the first place though Look at Mexico. If we opened the borders up entirely Mexico would be better off, while the US would become more like mexico!

Well without the "The Americas Free/Fair Trade Agreement" The US is going to be steeply outpaced by the Europeans. If the US reverts to populism and protectionism, the US WILL be left in the dust by the rest of the world. Thats a FACT.

Right now the US is in between a rock and a hard place. We need to tread carefully. If we become protectionist, we will suffer. If we dont do something to shrink the trade deficit, we will suffer.

And the trade deficit and outsourcing has nothing to do with Bush. We would be in the same exact situation if Gore was Pres, or if Clinton could have had a third term. This is a trend that is long running and is long term. I single two term president wouldnt be able to control it, let alone 3 years.

What you're really saying and supporting is that America and Americans are weak little turds and can't produce our own own product and stay current in High Tech. Shame on you, shame on us for letting that be exactly the case.

We are now number 11 in High Speed Internet Access deployment and dropping fast. That is just one are we are falling by the wayside in a heartbeat. Soon the U.S. will be nothing but a parasite, depending on the rest of the world to feed it like low life leech. Hope you're proud.

Ummm how do you get that out of what I said.

We arent only current in high tech, but we still LEAD the way. With what, 58% of the worlds R&D taking place IN THE US. High tech != IT, programming, or computers.

As for high speed internet access. WTF does the gauge? We havent deployed it all that much, because unlike other countries, companies in the US arent being subsidized to do it.

58% and going down FAST. But you and a few others will be happy when it drops to ZERO.

Why don't you contribute in the research then? It can never go down to zero, we have the best academic institutions in the world.

thats part of the problem, we don't. Sure, our top 20 or so Universities are great, but what percentage of the total college age students go to them? I know tons of people who I come into daily contact with that end up at Community colleges. Many people on here, from what I have read are examples.

More important than this, though, is our K-12 programs. How good are they? I went to an "Exemplary" High School, and when one of my friends moved down from Canada, she commented on how 'EASY' American High Schools are. That, being a High School in a rich, white collar suburb mind you. She was number 4 of our school in no time. She said schooling in Toronto was much harder. I have heard the same thing from Indian kids who literally find the curriculum a joke (those transferring from Indian schools). K-12 school here, is, by and large, EASY, when compared to the curriculums of schools in other nations, particularly those in Asia.

I hated school, and am out of it, so I can advocate this now , but I think we need to make our schools harder, and try different approaches. More homework, more challenges, more projects, etc. We are the best equipped and funded country in the world. We are the leaders in technical innovation, WTF is wrong with our schools?

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab
Shockwave,

Care to base your statement on data? No? I will:



Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

Link 4 "its safe to say that without Indian immigrants the valley wouldn't be what it is today" This has been said by Melanie Warner, who did a report on it for Fortune, Anna Lee Saxenian, a professor who did studies on immigrants and their effect on Silicone Valley, and others. Michael Lewis, a Berkeley professor states in his book, "New New Thing" "the definitive smell of curry in Silicon Valley... about half the startups are indian..."

Link 5 "40% of Silicon Valley startup companies are "indian spawned", half from IIT alumni..."

Okay, now here's some quick facts:

The "father" of the Pentium processor is Vinod Dham (As far as I recall, the Pentium was a huge leap forward with respect to processing power, this alone was significant)
Hotmail founded by Sabeer Bhatia, sold to MS for 400mn
Sun Microsystems: founded by Vinod Khosla/Scott McNealy
Excelan: founded by Kanwal Rekhi
AT&T Bell Labs President & former Lucent Tech. CTO (cheif tech. officer): Arun Netravali
CEO and founder of I2 Systems, Sanjiv Sidhu
Juniper Networks founder Pradeep Sindhu
Sycamore Networks founder: Gururaj Deshpande
President and CEO of Computer Associates (CA) and owner of NHL team Islanders, Sanjay Kumar Sanjay Kumar
Suhas Patil, Chairman of Board of Cirrus Logic.

These are the "big boys." All Billion Dollar, TAX PAYING, LARGE EMPLOYING companies. I know I missed many other huge/significant to the U.S. Tech Industry companies founded/co-founded by Indians. Don't have the time to look all fo them up. These were readily available. Oh, and for every one of these guys, there are probably 1,000 that didn't make it THIS big, but still employ thousands of people, and were very significant to making the Silicon Valley what it is.

Interesting tidbits:
"32% of Bay-Area?s high-tech work force is Indian
34% of MICROSOFT employees are Indians
32% of NASA employees are Indians
28% of IBM employees are Indians
17% of INTEL employees are Indians " Source
Creator of WebMD site is Pavan Nigam.
The creator of THIS site is Anand Lal Shimpi
Indian American population: between .6 - .7% of the U.S. Population (roughly 1.7 million)

This should provide you with ample reading material shockwave. If I haven't given a link, i've supplied the names you need to google it and verify it on your own time. Now, in typical AT fashion, I'm sure you will reject all this, and come up with a one or two liner smart a55 comment. Before you do so, keep in mind all of my sources were non-indian related (not written by Indians or Indian Americans), 3rd party sources, including the studies by the professors about the contributions Indian immigrants made to our IT industry. These people studied the impact in the Silicone Valley primarily, and so their findings didn't even include the significant companies that are spread out around the entire U.S., from California to New York, From Detroit, to Dallas. And these examples I have provided dont even count the numerous companies that were bought out, merged, or provided crucial technology to other, larger, more recognizable companies that the common public has heard of. For this reason, i have only put the big names on this list, because to go through company mergers, aquisitions, and transferring of technology will be a major undertaking in itself - and, in each and every one of those aspects, the work of Indian Americans has been crucial, not so-so important, not 'it helped,' VERY IMPORTANT. Disagree? Prove it. Provide data, links, evidence.

I'm not going to discount the work other people, but before people jump on the lets bash India bandwagon, think what India has lost over the past 30 years, then tell me who the winner is at the end of the day.


-SeP

Hey, that 40% article was from 1998. Silicon Valley has undergone a whole lot of changes since then! 90% of them are probably no longer in business

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: Munchies
There needs to be an offshoring review board. They need to review the benefits and loses, when a company want to put more than 20 jobs overseas. And they either approve it or dont.

I don't know what to say except you are a complete idiot and obviously a Democrat.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: Skoorb

The net result is that trade is better OVERALL for both countries who do the trading. Of course if you only focus on the people who are hurt and ignore the benefits then yes trade looks horrible.

It's "more better" for the country that sucks balls in the first place though Look at Mexico. If we opened the borders up entirely Mexico would be better off, while the US would become more like mexico!

Well without the "The Americas Free/Fair Trade Agreement" The US is going to be steeply outpaced by the Europeans. If the US reverts to populism and protectionism, the US WILL be left in the dust by the rest of the world. Thats a FACT.

Right now the US is in between a rock and a hard place. We need to tread carefully. If we become protectionist, we will suffer. If we dont do something to shrink the trade deficit, we will suffer.

And the trade deficit and outsourcing has nothing to do with Bush. We would be in the same exact situation if Gore was Pres, or if Clinton could have had a third term. This is a trend that is long running and is long term. I single two term president wouldnt be able to control it, let alone 3 years.

What you're really saying and supporting is that America and Americans are weak little turds and can't produce our own own product and stay current in High Tech. Shame on you, shame on us for letting that be exactly the case.

We are now number 11 in High Speed Internet Access deployment and dropping fast. That is just one are we are falling by the wayside in a heartbeat. Soon the U.S. will be nothing but a parasite, depending on the rest of the world to feed it like low life leech. Hope you're proud.

Ummm how do you get that out of what I said.

We arent only current in high tech, but we still LEAD the way. With what, 58% of the worlds R&D taking place IN THE US. High tech != IT, programming, or computers.

As for high speed internet access. WTF does the gauge? We havent deployed it all that much, because unlike other countries, companies in the US arent being subsidized to do it.

58% and going down FAST. But you and a few others will be happy when it drops to ZERO.

Why don't you contribute in the research then? It can never go down to zero, we have the best academic institutions in the world.

thats part of the problem, we don't. Sure, our top 20 or so Universities are great, but what percentage of the total college age students go to them? I know tons of people who I come into daily contact with that end up at Community colleges. Many people on here, from what I have read are examples.

More important than this, though, is our K-12 programs. How good are they? I went to an "Exemplary" High School, and when one of my friends moved down from Canada, she commented on how 'EASY' American High Schools are. That, being a High School in a rich, white collar suburb mind you. She was number 4 of our school in no time. She said schooling in Toronto was much harder. I have heard the same thing from Indian kids who literally find the curriculum a joke (those transferring from Indian schools). K-12 school here, is, by and large, EASY, when compared to the curriculums of schools in other nations, particularly those in Asia.

I hated school, and am out of it, so I can advocate this now , but I think we need to make our schools harder, and try different approaches. More homework, more challenges, more projects, etc. We are the best equipped and funded country in the world. We are the leaders in technical innovation, WTF is wrong with our schools?

I strongly disagree on this one. We have the best academic institutions in the world. It's really pathetic when you see international ranked lists of schools. The US just dominates in it.

High schools and other pre-college education may not be the best, but I don't expect much from them, especially since we have such a large population. Everyone in India doesn't go to school. I don't think it's fair to compare it. I do agree with you though. However, when they get to college, it's a different matter.

 

[SherEPunjab]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab
Shockwave,

Care to base your statement on data? No? I will:



Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

Link 4 "its safe to say that without Indian immigrants the valley wouldn't be what it is today" This has been said by Melanie Warner, who did a report on it for Fortune, Anna Lee Saxenian, a professor who did studies on immigrants and their effect on Silicone Valley, and others. Michael Lewis, a Berkeley professor states in his book, "New New Thing" "the definitive smell of curry in Silicon Valley... about half the startups are indian..."

Link 5 "40% of Silicon Valley startup companies are "indian spawned", half from IIT alumni..."

Okay, now here's some quick facts:

The "father" of the Pentium processor is Vinod Dham (As far as I recall, the Pentium was a huge leap forward with respect to processing power, this alone was significant)
Hotmail founded by Sabeer Bhatia, sold to MS for 400mn
Sun Microsystems: founded by Vinod Khosla/Scott McNealy
Excelan: founded by Kanwal Rekhi
AT&T Bell Labs President & former Lucent Tech. CTO (cheif tech. officer): Arun Netravali
CEO and founder of I2 Systems, Sanjiv Sidhu
Juniper Networks founder Pradeep Sindhu
Sycamore Networks founder: Gururaj Deshpande
President and CEO of Computer Associates (CA) and owner of NHL team Islanders, Sanjay Kumar Sanjay Kumar
Suhas Patil, Chairman of Board of Cirrus Logic.

These are the "big boys." All Billion Dollar, TAX PAYING, LARGE EMPLOYING companies. I know I missed many other huge/significant to the U.S. Tech Industry companies founded/co-founded by Indians. Don't have the time to look all fo them up. These were readily available. Oh, and for every one of these guys, there are probably 1,000 that didn't make it THIS big, but still employ thousands of people, and were very significant to making the Silicon Valley what it is.

Interesting tidbits:
"32% of Bay-Area?s high-tech work force is Indian
34% of MICROSOFT employees are Indians
32% of NASA employees are Indians
28% of IBM employees are Indians
17% of INTEL employees are Indians " Source
Creator of WebMD site is Pavan Nigam.
The creator of THIS site is Anand Lal Shimpi
Indian American population: between .6 - .7% of the U.S. Population (roughly 1.7 million)

This should provide you with ample reading material shockwave. If I haven't given a link, i've supplied the names you need to google it and verify it on your own time. Now, in typical AT fashion, I'm sure you will reject all this, and come up with a one or two liner smart a55 comment. Before you do so, keep in mind all of my sources were non-indian related (not written by Indians or Indian Americans), 3rd party sources, including the studies by the professors about the contributions Indian immigrants made to our IT industry. These people studied the impact in the Silicone Valley primarily, and so their findings didn't even include the significant companies that are spread out around the entire U.S., from California to New York, From Detroit, to Dallas. And these examples I have provided dont even count the numerous companies that were bought out, merged, or provided crucial technology to other, larger, more recognizable companies that the common public has heard of. For this reason, i have only put the big names on this list, because to go through company mergers, aquisitions, and transferring of technology will be a major undertaking in itself - and, in each and every one of those aspects, the work of Indian Americans has been crucial, not so-so important, not 'it helped,' VERY IMPORTANT. Disagree? Prove it. Provide data, links, evidence.

I'm not going to discount the work other people, but before people jump on the lets bash India bandwagon, think what India has lost over the past 30 years, then tell me who the winner is at the end of the day.


-SeP

Hey, that 40% article was from 1998. Silicon Valley has undergone a whole lot of changes since then! 90% of them are probably no longer in business

No, they are still hanging on, but alot of their values have plummeted. I remember when Sanjiv Sidhu was worth like 13 billion dollars. Now I hear his company is 'only' worth 800 million or so. The "smart" ones (in terms of maximizing ROTI, ROMI, or Return on Time Invested, Return on Money Invested), sold when their companies hit the celing a few years ago. I remember people were selling sh*t dot com companies for millions, cashing out, and then enjoying life. Wise decisions. I remember a time when company porsches was not that unusual. I was full of hopes and dreams. Then I graduated. damn.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab
Shockwave,

Care to base your statement on data? No? I will:



Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

Link 4 "its safe to say that without Indian immigrants the valley wouldn't be what it is today" This has been said by Melanie Warner, who did a report on it for Fortune, Anna Lee Saxenian, a professor who did studies on immigrants and their effect on Silicone Valley, and others. Michael Lewis, a Berkeley professor states in his book, "New New Thing" "the definitive smell of curry in Silicon Valley... about half the startups are indian..."

Link 5 "40% of Silicon Valley startup companies are "indian spawned", half from IIT alumni..."

Okay, now here's some quick facts:

The "father" of the Pentium processor is Vinod Dham (As far as I recall, the Pentium was a huge leap forward with respect to processing power, this alone was significant)
Hotmail founded by Sabeer Bhatia, sold to MS for 400mn
Sun Microsystems: founded by Vinod Khosla/Scott McNealy
Excelan: founded by Kanwal Rekhi
AT&T Bell Labs President & former Lucent Tech. CTO (cheif tech. officer): Arun Netravali
CEO and founder of I2 Systems, Sanjiv Sidhu
Juniper Networks founder Pradeep Sindhu
Sycamore Networks founder: Gururaj Deshpande
President and CEO of Computer Associates (CA) and owner of NHL team Islanders, Sanjay Kumar Sanjay Kumar
Suhas Patil, Chairman of Board of Cirrus Logic.

These are the "big boys." All Billion Dollar, TAX PAYING, LARGE EMPLOYING companies. I know I missed many other huge/significant to the U.S. Tech Industry companies founded/co-founded by Indians. Don't have the time to look all fo them up. These were readily available. Oh, and for every one of these guys, there are probably 1,000 that didn't make it THIS big, but still employ thousands of people, and were very significant to making the Silicon Valley what it is.

Interesting tidbits:
"32% of Bay-Area?s high-tech work force is Indian
34% of MICROSOFT employees are Indians
32% of NASA employees are Indians
28% of IBM employees are Indians
17% of INTEL employees are Indians " Source
Creator of WebMD site is Pavan Nigam.
The creator of THIS site is Anand Lal Shimpi
Indian American population: between .6 - .7% of the U.S. Population (roughly 1.7 million)

This should provide you with ample reading material shockwave. If I haven't given a link, i've supplied the names you need to google it and verify it on your own time. Now, in typical AT fashion, I'm sure you will reject all this, and come up with a one or two liner smart a55 comment. Before you do so, keep in mind all of my sources were non-indian related (not written by Indians or Indian Americans), 3rd party sources, including the studies by the professors about the contributions Indian immigrants made to our IT industry. These people studied the impact in the Silicone Valley primarily, and so their findings didn't even include the significant companies that are spread out around the entire U.S., from California to New York, From Detroit, to Dallas. And these examples I have provided dont even count the numerous companies that were bought out, merged, or provided crucial technology to other, larger, more recognizable companies that the common public has heard of. For this reason, i have only put the big names on this list, because to go through company mergers, aquisitions, and transferring of technology will be a major undertaking in itself - and, in each and every one of those aspects, the work of Indian Americans has been crucial, not so-so important, not 'it helped,' VERY IMPORTANT. Disagree? Prove it. Provide data, links, evidence.

I'm not going to discount the work other people, but before people jump on the lets bash India bandwagon, think what India has lost over the past 30 years, then tell me who the winner is at the end of the day.


-SeP

Hey, that 40% article was from 1998. Silicon Valley has undergone a whole lot of changes since then! 90% of them are probably no longer in business

No, they are still hanging on, but alot of their values have plummeted. I remember when Sanjiv Sidhu was worth like 13 billion dollars. Now I hear his company is 'only' worth 800 million or so. The "smart" ones (in terms of maximizing ROTI, ROMI, or Return on Time Invested, Return on Money Invested), sold when their companies hit the celing a few years ago. I remember people were selling sh*t dot com companies for millions, cashing out, and then enjoying life. Wise decisions. I remember a time when company porsches was not that unusual. I was full of hopes and dreams. Then I graduated. damn.

Do you live in Silicon Valley? I don't but I used to work there, but a ton of companies have folded. There's a huge visible difference between SV in 1998 and today, at least to me. I was really shocked.

 

[T2T III]

Eventually, the jobs of the executives that made these decisions will also go Overseas. Then, they'll realize what a stoooopid decision they have made.

 

[kalster]

Originally posted by: Techie333
There should definately be a cap/limit to outsourcing........it is getting ridiculous.....they were showing it on a report the other day on some channel and this one indian guy was like as soon as I get out of college with some engineering degree I have 20 companies at my feet..............

well if someone is really good and gets a lot of job offers you cant blame it on outsourcing


you think without outsourcing there arent any jobs in india?

wat kinda weird assumption is that

 

[ultimatebob]

Originally posted by: Shockwave

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab
The IT industry would have been a fraction of what it is today without the brightest of that country coming here. If someone really wants to b*tch, in this case, India can. .

That is probably close to the dumbest thing I have EVER read on ATOT.
The IT industry would be a fraction of what it is today without Indians over here? Please. Someone thinks FAR too highly of Indians. FAR FAR too highly.

Yeah, Indian programmers aren't all that. I support a bunch of them in my development lab (both off-shore contractors and H1-B visa immigrants), and some of those guys aren't very bright. They can't remember their passwords, often can't get connected to my servers without a LOT of hand-holding, and accidently screw up their code repositories with stupid mistakes.

Don't get me, wrong, though.... I support brain-dead developers from many other nationalities, too! It just seems that the Indian contractors are the worst of the lot at the moment. Some of them can't speak English very well, either, which means that I occassionally see amusing phrases like "importance of matter great" and "please do the needful" in my e-mail