Outsourcing is all too real and will only intensify in the near future.

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Gibson486
In the end, you dont need spectacular programmers. You just need good programmers that get everything done. No one cares how the software in implimented. All that matters is that it works.

Ala Microsoft? How much do you figure it costs them to put out all those patches and services packs?
That's the difference between having "good programmers that get everything done" and programmers who write good code. They may not care how the software is implemented at first, but when bugs and exploits come in, then they start to care.

I'm sure they still come out ahead in the end, because we will buy it no matter what, because we dont really have a choice.

Of COURSE Microsoft will be fine, I'm just using that as an example. Most companies aren't Microsoft.

The only companies outsourcing ARE big companies like microsoft. Joe dick down the block isnt.

 

[Phoenix86]

Originally posted by: tec699
And what will happen when the robots take our jobs! Yea ROBOTS! It will happen. Mark my word guys.

OMG, Save the cobblers and bricklayers!!! Mark my words, those used to be thriving industries, now they don't exist. Oh noes, the sky is falling...

What's your point? Jobs ALWAYS come and go, protecting an outdated industry is backwards. If robots can perform a job cheaper/faster/better, why WOULDN'T you have it doing the job? Really, it's better for everyone... I'll just go build/service robots.

Or alternatively, you can lower your standard of living, something which americans appear simply uable to do. We're such spoiled brats.

...or the cost of living, which is what outsourcing CAN do, if done correctly. You like those $3-400 Dell PCs right? They ain't manufactured in the US ya know, but they are driving the cost of ownership down. Same thing with autos, brand new Kia for >$10, WAY under 10K. Look at the number of cars your can get for ~$15K. I haven't seen that in quite some time in the auto industry...

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: Phoenix86

Originally posted by: tec699
And what will happen when the robots take our jobs! Yea ROBOTS! It will happen. Mark my word guys.

OMG, Save the cobblers and bricklayers!!! Mark my words, those used to be thriving industries, now they don't exist. Oh noes, the sky is falling...

What's your point? Jobs ALWAYS come and go, protecting an outdated industry is backwards. If robots can perform a job cheaper/faster/better, why WOULDN'T you have it doing the job? Really, it's better for everyone... I'll just go build/service robots.

Or alternatively, you can lower your standard of living, something which americans appear simply uable to do. We're such spoiled brats.

...or the cost of living, which is what outsourcing CAN do, if done correctly. You like those $3-400 Dell PCs right? They ain't manufactured in the US ya know, but they are driving the cost of ownership down. Same thing with autos, brand new Kia for >$10, WAY under 10K. Look at the number of cars your can get for ~$15K. I haven't seen that in quite some time in the auto industry...

Yep, but thats not what americans are about. When prices of things go down, we dont say wow, now we can save or invest more of our money, since everything we need to live is so much cheaper!

Instead we expect bigger, better, faster. We don't want kia's we want SUVs. We dont want $400 dell PCs, we want $3000 laptops, nevermind about whether or not it will benefit us. Because whats important is not what you have, but how much more you have than your neighbor.

Yep, america is heading for a reality check.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: BD2003
The only companies outsourcing ARE big companies like microsoft. Joe dick down the block isnt.

Not true. One company I worked with consists of about 10-15 people, and then they've got their outsourced programmers.

 

[tec699]

I was of course kidding about the robots taking our jobs, but what about technology? Have you been to a supermarket lately? The Kmart that is in my area has an checkout line that is fully automated. No need to pay a cashier a half decent wage and benefits when you can put these systems in your store.

I love technology but not everyone is college material. We need good paying jobs for people with little experience. Instead of half decent jobs we get the Wallmarts and Kmarts with their $6.25 an hour wage! Who can survive on this chicken scratch?

I know.. boo hoo. But when that person can't make a living and has to resort to violent crimes and puts a gun to your skull then please don't come bitchin to me.



"A person who has nothing to lose is a very very dangerous person."

-remember that.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: tec699
I was of course kidding about the robots taking our jobs, but what about technology? Have you been to a supermarket lately? The Kmart that is in my area has an checkout line that is fully automated. No need to pay a cashier a half decent wage and benefits when you can put these systems in your store.

I love technology but not everyone is college material. We need good paying jobs for people with little experience. Instead of half decent jobs we get the Wallmarts and Kmarts with their $6.25 an hour wage! Who can survive on this chicken scratch?

I know.. boo hoo. But when that person can't make a living and has to resort to violent crimes and puts a gun to your skull then please don't come bitchin to me.



"A person who has nothing to lose is a very very dangerous person."

-remember that.

Well then socialism, here we come! *Runs and hides*

 

[fawhfe]

Originally posted by: tec699
I was of course kidding about the robots taking our jobs, but what about technology? Have you been to a supermarket lately? The Kmart that is in my area has an checkout line that is fully automated. No need to pay a cashier a half decent wage and benefits when you can put these systems in your store.

I love technology but not everyone is college material. We need good paying jobs for people with little experience. Instead of half decent jobs we get the Wallmarts and Kmarts with their $6.25 an hour wage! Who can survive on this chicken scratch?

I know.. boo hoo. But when that person can't make a living and has to resort to violent crimes and puts a gun to your skull then please don't come bitchin to me.



"A person who has nothing to lose is a very very dangerous person."

-remember that.

Just because the man might commit a crime doesn't give him the RIGHT to a job. That's like saying I have the RIGHT to $5 if I come up and tell you that I won't stop harassing you until you give me $5. Honestly, if the man has NO marketable skills and NO potential, I'm fine with him being unemployed. It's unfortunate that he got dealt a poor hand in life, but that's what happens. The rest of us shouldn't have to suffer as a result (because the fact is, now that the supermarket uses a robot, the supermarket has more money to either reduce prices, hire new and better educated workers, or expand their company).

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: tec699
I was of course kidding about the robots taking our jobs, but what about technology?

When I was in early high school, about 8 years ago, that was the big fear. Robotic technology was replacing jobs in the factories. Faster, better quality results. Guess what happened? We forgot about that, those people went on to work other jobs, and now we've got robotics designers and maintenance workers.

Have you been to a supermarket lately? The Kmart that is in my area has an checkout line that is fully automated. No need to pay a cashier a half decent wage and benefits when you can put these systems in your store.

Ever work at a department store? They are NOT getting paid decent wage. By having these automated systems, it keeps costs down on the goods in the store, there is more salary money available for the remaining employees, AND there are new jobs created to program and support the automated systems.

I love technology but not everyone is college material. We need good paying jobs for people with little experience. Instead of half decent jobs we get the Wallmarts and Kmarts with their $6.25 an hour wage! Who can survive on this chicken scratch?

Well the people making $6.25 working non-Walmart jobs sure are appreciating the low cost of buying goods at Walmart, it helps them survive. You don't need to go to college to become a salesperson - just need a motivated attitude and you do fine.

Besides, what jobs have you ever known of that paid really well for little experience? I've never come across any, unless you want to count truck driving (which can't be outsourced!).

I know.. boo hoo. But when that person can't make a living and has to resort to violent crimes and puts a gun to your skull then please don't come bitchin to me.



"A person who has nothing to lose is a very very dangerous person."

-remember that.

 

[tec699]

I know I probably sound like a tree hugging liberal but actually I don't lean too far left. I work full time (40-48 hours a week) and attend college full time. I believe in hard work and I don't believe in government handouts unless you desperately need it.

On the other hand I don't understand some of you people. Please have some compassion for the less fortunate. Instead it's "Well their lazy bums and they need to go to college" or it's "they need to get job skills." As I stated earlier not everyone is college material so I believe that we should have good paying jobs for these people.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: tec699
I know I probably sound like a tree hugging liberal but actually I don't lean too far left. I work full time (40-48 hours a week) and attend college full time. I believe in hard work and I don't believe in government handouts unless you desperately need it.

On the other hand I don't understand some of you people. Please have some compassion for the less fortunate. Instead it's "Well their lazy bums and they need to go to college" or it's "they need to get job skills." As I stated earlier not everyone is college material so I believe that we should have good paying jobs for these people.

Yes, compassion is good, good intentions are wonderful, but you have to look at the big picture. It is for their own good - to their own benefit - if the job is outsourced. They may not have a job the next day, but they will adapt and grow and get much better work. It may even take years before they settle back into a decent paying job.

If we cut off all insourcing and outsourcing, we'd be the ones being hurt the most, not the other countries. Try to look at this for the whole U.S., and not just now, but in years to come. It is a positive shift in the market (yes with some pains). Because a few people lose their jobs now, many more gain better jobs in the future. Think about the children!

 

[fawhfe]

Originally posted by: tec699
I know I probably sound like a tree hugging liberal but actually I don't lean too far left. I work full time (40-48 hours a week) and attend college full time. I believe in hard work and I don't believe in government handouts unless you desperately need it.

On the other hand I don't understand some of you people. Please have some compassion for the less fortunate. Instead it's "Well their lazy bums and they need to go to college" or it's "they need to get job skills." As I stated earlier not everyone is college material so I believe that we should have good paying jobs for these people.

Just ask why questions until you can't come up with an answer. Start with why do these people deserve my compassion? Sooner or later you hit a question where you just can't find a good reason at all and you just say screw it, socialism sucks. I'm going to buy a brand new video card instead. Wheee!!!\

edit--I rather like the question "Why should I reward these people with my hard work and ability when they clearly have none. In other words, why should I reduce my quality of life because of my virtue and they increase their quality of life because of their vice? Why do I give solely to these people who are LEAST CAPABLE and why do they expect handouts from those who are MOST CAPABLE?"

 

[BD2003]

Just ask why questions until you can't come up with an answer. Start with why do these people deserve my compassion? Sooner or later you hit a question where you just can't find a good reason at all and you just say screw it, socialism sucks. I'm going to buy a brand new video card instead. Wheee!!!\

edit--I rather like the question "Why should I reward these people with my hard work and ability when they clearly have none. In other words, why should I reduce my quality of life because of my virtue and they increase their quality of life because of their vice? Why do I give solely to these people who are LEAST CAPABLE and why do they expect handouts from those who are MOST CAPABLE?"

Because they did not have the same upbringing and opportunities as you did. Whether you agree with that or like that, its still true.

Thats a whole other conversation, but if you think its as simple as theyre just lazy and stupid, youre dead wrong.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Just ask why questions until you can't come up with an answer. Start with why do these people deserve my compassion? Sooner or later you hit a question where you just can't find a good reason at all and you just say screw it, socialism sucks. I'm going to buy a brand new video card instead. Wheee!!!\

edit--I rather like the question "Why should I reward these people with my hard work and ability when they clearly have none. In other words, why should I reduce my quality of life because of my virtue and they increase their quality of life because of their vice? Why do I give solely to these people who are LEAST CAPABLE and why do they expect handouts from those who are MOST CAPABLE?"

Because they did not have the same upbringing and opportunities as you did. Whether you agree with that or like that, its still true.

You can't control who were your parents, but you can control your life, your future.

Everyone has an opportunity in this country. It is up to you to take advantage of that opportunity.

 

[fawhfe]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Just ask why questions until you can't come up with an answer. Start with why do these people deserve my compassion? Sooner or later you hit a question where you just can't find a good reason at all and you just say screw it, socialism sucks. I'm going to buy a brand new video card instead. Wheee!!!\

edit--I rather like the question "Why should I reward these people with my hard work and ability when they clearly have none. In other words, why should I reduce my quality of life because of my virtue and they increase their quality of life because of their vice? Why do I give solely to these people who are LEAST CAPABLE and why do they expect handouts from those who are MOST CAPABLE?"

Because they did not have the same upbringing and opportunities as you did. Whether you agree with that or like that, its still true.

Thats a whole other conversation, but if you think its as simple as theyre just lazy and stupid, youre dead wrong.

You're absolutely right. I made a few wrong assumptions and overly generalized so I apologize about that. I guess the argument just got so theoretical that I started thinking everyone had equal oppurtunities .

 

[ChurchOfSubgenius]

Originally posted by: torpid
Yep, you definitely don't understand what differentiates good programmers from great ones. And it's not surprising; as I said neither does management, generaly. It's kind of hard to speak in such generalities, too. I mean, is a good outsource programmer good because he's got good technical skills and is a quick learner? Are we including communication skills in this? An outsourced programmer needs to have significantly better communication skills than a non-outsourced one, because it's such a limitation to be halfway across the world on a different schedule.

And that's just the beginning. 16 good programmers will do enough to make the program work as specified. That sounds like enough, doesn't it? Well it isn't. There's a lot more to it than just making it work as specified. How extensible is it? How portable to other sites and/or platforms? Is it well documented? How hard is it to tweak? How secure is it? Will it perform well under stress? How usable is it? Has it been tested for usability purposes? Is it accessible? Does it comply with standards?

Also, I would guess that you don't really ever want to hire by the number of people. If I were to consider outsourcing and were a business person, I'd want a homogenous team with proven skills to be hired. 16 random good programmers will almost never be better than 5 or 6 good programmers who excel at working with each other and have done so countless times.

Don't underestimate the amount of effort and money that is wasted on micromanagement either. 4 amazing programmers will need little micromanagement. 16 good programmers who work in another country will need LOTS of micromanagement.

You should write a generic paper on outsourcing, that was an excellent sysopsis and I'm sure you have more where that came from.