Outsourcing is all too real and will only intensify in the near future.

[RKS]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: RKS
Get into a career path that can't be outsourced eg; sanitation engineer, doctor, lawyer, etc.

All of those can be outsourced and/or replaced.


1. S.Engineer: There are trash trucks that only need a driver as they have arms that put the trash into the truck

2. Doctor: A lot of doctors are being replaced with RN's (Think HMO's) and a lot of X-Rays are being sent to india for review now

3. Laywer: Again a lot of contcats are being done over seas, online lawyers, etc...


If you think ANY job is safe, look again.


Also I Grad. in May 2003 and only Make $8.60 as I can;t find a REAL job either.

1. efficiancy is not the same as outsourcing

2. I don't think MDs send work overseas, with time differences, to less skilled people, to help them evaluate a situation that may require immediate attention. If anything I bet doctors here get stuff sent to them. My hmo provides me with a skilled doctor.

3. Nobody gets real legal advise online, only suggestions. As with every transaction, even international, BOTH sides have their own attorneys. No legal field is going to be outsourced. Why would you hire foreign representation that is not even licensed to practice in the US?

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: torpid
Yep, you definitely don't understand what differentiates good programmers from great ones. And it's not surprising; as I said neither does management, generaly. It's kind of hard to speak in such generalities, too. I mean, is a good outsource programmer good because he's got good technical skills and is a quick learner? Are we including communication skills in this? An outsourced programmer needs to have significantly better communication skills than a non-outsourced one, because it's such a limitation to be halfway across the world on a different schedule.

And that's just the beginning. 16 good programmers will do enough to make the program work as specified. That sounds like enough, doesn't it? Well it isn't. There's a lot more to it than just making it work as specified. How extensible is it? How portable to other sites and/or platforms? Is it well documented? How hard is it to tweak? How secure is it? Will it perform well under stress? How usable is it? Has it been tested for usability purposes? Is it accessible? Does it comply with standards?

Also, I would guess that you don't really ever want to hire by the number of people. If I were to consider outsourcing and were a business person, I'd want a homogenous team with proven skills to be hired. 16 random good programmers will almost never be better than 5 or 6 good programmers who excel at working with each other and have done so countless times.

Don't underestimate the amount of effort and money that is wasted on micromanagement either. 4 amazing programmers will need little micromanagement. 16 good programmers who work in another country will need LOTS of micromanagement.

Companies dont hire individual indian programmers. They hire firms, with their own management. The guys coming to visit our company were probably the best they had. There is no reason for me to believe that their team could not do as good a job as the americans do. Communication isnt a problem, they understand each other perfectly. Only the one interfacing with the americans do, and the ones I met certainly did. Sure, 16 people will need a ton of micromanagement, but even after including the associated costs to hire the extra person, you still come out way ahead.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: tec699

Originally posted by: SagaLore
Myths and Realities: The False Crisis of Outsourcing

I'll counter that with...

For Michael Melvin and his 23-year-old son, Stephen, working with computers had long seemed the pathway to a more prosperous future, a haven of security in a rapidly changing world. This year, they discovered how wrong they were.

Pineau and other workers who have seen their jobs take flight feel their hands are tied. Thanks to the Internet, tumbling telecommunications costs and more open societies in some developing countries, employers can tap into cheap labor markets around the world.

When Humphreys & Partners Architects needs 3-D, computer-generated drawings of its projects, it turns to a network of firms in Russia, India, Argentina and Uruguay.
The Dallas architectural firm pays a fraction of the $4,000 to $8,000 it would cost to do the drawings in the United States, says chief executive Mark Humphreys. And the process couldn't be any easier. Humphreys employees e-mail their instructions, photos and hand sketches. The information speeds across the ocean in seconds, and the overseas firms can return renderings in three days vs. the minimum of a week in the United States.

Well boohoo.

This wouldn't be such an issue if it weren't for the Dot Coms. A bunch of kids making tons of money with unsharpened skills - when it crashed, we were left with a saturated market. Now it is competitive - those who know what they're doing and can market that to employers, will get hired. In the meantime, the level 1 support jobs usually filled by high school graduates are getting filled by less costly foreigners who can do an okay job at it. In the meantime, the companies are making more money, and can afford to pay us advancted techs more.

It's an evolving market. For those thousands that lose their jobs, the other hundreds of thousands benefit by getting a more affordable product. Then those that lost their jobs that go on to better non-outsourced jobs.

I don't hear anyone complaining that China is making most of the cheap junk that people buy these days. Had those jobs stayed there, the junk would not have been cheap, and employees wouldn't be making much. Instead we'd probably be hiring illegal immigrants to do the work just to get by.

I was laid off once. It sucks. But I got a better job because of it, and so did all of my co-workers. These people need to stop sulking and make better of themselves!

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: SagaLore
Myths and Realities: The False Crisis of Outsourcing

I'd take that with a grain of salt, the source is a self proclaimed conservative think tank.

It's either that or pull an article from a liberal-in-denial newspaper that is screaming the sky is falling, without looking at the whole picture.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: RKS

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: RKS
Get into a career path that can't be outsourced eg; sanitation engineer, doctor, lawyer, etc.

All of those can be outsourced and/or replaced.


1. S.Engineer: There are trash trucks that only need a driver as they have arms that put the trash into the truck

2. Doctor: A lot of doctors are being replaced with RN's (Think HMO's) and a lot of X-Rays are being sent to india for review now

3. Laywer: Again a lot of contcats are being done over seas, online lawyers, etc...


If you think ANY job is safe, look again.


Also I Grad. in May 2003 and only Make $8.60 as I can;t find a REAL job either.

1. efficiancy is not the same as outsourcing

2. I don't think MDs send work overseas, with time differences, to less skilled people, to help them evaluate a situation that may require immediate attention. If anything I bet doctors here get stuff sent to them. My hmo provides me with a skilled doctor.

3. Nobody gets real legal advise online, only suggestions. As with every transaction, even international, BOTH sides have their own attorneys. No legal field is going to be outsourced. Why would you hire foreign representation that is not even licensed to practice in the US?

X-Rays and other Med work is ALREADY being sent over seas, heck even the IRS sends work overseas now.

Also the majority of legal cases NEVER see the light of a court room, so more and more OUTSIDE people are involved in law now to try and reduce cost.

So there is always room to be replaced, just have to look around, its there

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: BD2003
Companies dont hire individual indian programmers. They hire firms, with their own management. The guys coming to visit our company were probably the best they had. There is no reason for me to believe that their team could not do as good a job as the americans do. Communication isnt a problem, they understand each other perfectly. Only the one interfacing with the americans do, and the ones I met certainly did. Sure, 16 people will need a ton of micromanagement, but even after including the associated costs to hire the extra person, you still come out way ahead.

Sorry are we talking about the present reality or what things would be like if programmers didn't suck in general? Because I am talking about the latter. I can guarantee you without question that you will not come out ahead if you micromanage a firm of 16 people overseas as opposed to hiring 4 "amazing" programmers - and I should note that you probably have never met an amazing programmer (by the standards of my original post), as I know for sure I haven't. The closest mere mortals get to amazing programmers is basking in their brilliance on message boards when they write 1 paragraph which summarizes something it would take you 2 years to realize. There are very few programmers I would say are sufficiently talented right now to qualify. A lot of us are aware of things and say in an ideal world this or that, very few if any have actually done the things we speak about.

Thus, my original post...

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: SagaLore
Myths and Realities: The False Crisis of Outsourcing

I'd take that with a grain of salt, the source is a self proclaimed conservative think tank.

It's either that or pull an article from a liberal-in-denial newspaper that is screaming the sky is falling, without looking at the whole picture.

uhh, I'm just saying, if this were an animal cruelty thread, and someone cited PETA, they'd be flamed to kingdom come.

If nothing else, atleast the initial newspaper article doesn't have an upfront political affiliation.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: BD2003
Companies dont hire individual indian programmers. They hire firms, with their own management. The guys coming to visit our company were probably the best they had. There is no reason for me to believe that their team could not do as good a job as the americans do. Communication isnt a problem, they understand each other perfectly. Only the one interfacing with the americans do, and the ones I met certainly did. Sure, 16 people will need a ton of micromanagement, but even after including the associated costs to hire the extra person, you still come out way ahead.

Sorry are we talking about the present reality or what things would be like if programmers didn't suck in general? Because I am talking about the latter. I can guarantee you without question that you will not come out ahead if you micromanage a firm of 16 people overseas as opposed to hiring 4 "amazing" programmers - and I should note that you probably have never met an amazing programmer (by the standards of my original post), as I know for sure I haven't. The closest mere mortals get to amazing programmers is basking in their brilliance on message boards when they write 1 paragraph which summarizes something it would take you 2 years to realize. There are very few programmers I would say are sufficiently talented right now to qualify. A lot of us are aware of things and say in an ideal world this or that, very few if any have actually done the things we speak about.

Thus, my original post...

Well, you said it then, programmers suck in general. Might as well get sucky programmers for the least amount of money you can if theyre all going to suck anyway. Again, you dont have to micromanage the firm of 16 overseas, they do it for you. Whether theyre in india or in america, the upper execs are going to interface with middle management, and as far as the execs are concerned, its a phone call either way.

I've met only one amazing programmer, and he was a dick. But thats besides the point. They kept him around cause he was amazing, but if there were amazing indian programmers for half the cost, he'd be gone in a heartbeat. But sadly, as you have already pointed out, most american programmers suck.

But youre making the mistake of thinking that businesses are out there to make the best code they can. They are only concerned with making money. The bottom line is ALL that matters. If india is cheaper, and they do a good enough job, then so be it. The code might not be pretty (but who are you to say?), but if its cheaper, then its a win. Simple.

Like I said before, there is a reason why the programmers are not the execs.

 

[Zee]

i think there is too many pro and cons with outsourcing and that overall, we should just invade and take over india

 

[RKS]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: RKS

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: RKS
Get into a career path that can't be outsourced eg; sanitation engineer, doctor, lawyer, etc.

All of those can be outsourced and/or replaced.


1. S.Engineer: There are trash trucks that only need a driver as they have arms that put the trash into the truck

2. Doctor: A lot of doctors are being replaced with RN's (Think HMO's) and a lot of X-Rays are being sent to india for review now

3. Laywer: Again a lot of contcats are being done over seas, online lawyers, etc...


If you think ANY job is safe, look again.


Also I Grad. in May 2003 and only Make $8.60 as I can;t find a REAL job either.

1. efficiancy is not the same as outsourcing

2. I don't think MDs send work overseas, with time differences, to less skilled people, to help them evaluate a situation that may require immediate attention. If anything I bet doctors here get stuff sent to them. My hmo provides me with a skilled doctor.

3. Nobody gets real legal advise online, only suggestions. As with every transaction, even international, BOTH sides have their own attorneys. No legal field is going to be outsourced. Why would you hire foreign representation that is not even licensed to practice in the US?

X-Rays and other Med work is ALREADY being sent over seas, heck even the IRS sends work overseas now.

Also the majority of legal cases NEVER see the light of a court room, so more and more OUTSIDE people are involved in law now to try and reduce cost.

So there is always room to be replaced, just have to look around, its there

I think MDs are threatened more by rising malpractice insurance rates and lawsuits than x-rays being sent overseas. There is a lack of qualified medical people. In fact skilled medical personel especially nurses can get into this country easier then other classifications of immigrants due to the rising demand.

Just because cases never go to the courtroom does not mean lawyers are not involved, trust me most attorneys are more then happy to avoid actual litigations but still collect a hefty paycheck.

Nobody does anything important in business or vital personal affairs without skilled representation that is allowed to advise them within their respective jurisdiction. Yeah some cases may go to arbitration but even then legal entities are still involved.

 

[RKS]

Originally posted by: Lazee
i think there is too many pro and cons with outsourcing and that overall, we should just invade and take over india

I second that notion. How is their natural oil supply?

 

[cjchaps]

I have personal expierence working with Indian outsourcing... I am still working with them. My personal experience with them is dismal. Here are some of my viewpoints:

-All of them I have worked with are "yes" men. They will say yes to anything. Ask them if they can do something the immediate answer is yes. Ask them if this is possible to do, they will say yes. When it comes time to do it, they will say it's not possible. They don't seem to care. They know that they will not get fired because they cost 10% of what the average american costs. Most management only sees the bottom line, and wants to make sure the job is getting done, they don't really care how it gets done.

-50% of them do not understand or communicate very well. Trying to get a simple concept to them may take 10 minutes instead of 1 minute like it should.

-They are "average" programmers. They don't really know the best ways to do things, and usually just get something running. I guess when you can afford 10 of them and throw them at something, they work it out, but it's not quality, it's quantity code.

-The ones I have worked with are sneaky, and won't admit to wrong doing until it is pointed out to them. On several occasions I have asked a question to them know the answer ahead of time. A lot of the time they came back with the wrong answer. I tell them the right answer, they say, "oh yea, that's right". They assume that "yea, we know that" attitude.

I know I sound extreme, but my personal experience with them has been terrible. I do work with some directly from India and first generation indians at work also, and for the most part they are great workers. I think we got stuck with some really crappy outsourcing labor.

 

[fawhfe]

I think the problem is that a lot of people are naturally assuming that Indians are inferior workers to Americans (since they are a thrid world country and apparently demand less pay). I'm confident you can find just as many "amazing programmers" in India as you can in America. Their colleges are recruited from by some of the largest companes in America for management positions. All this arguing about whether 4 amazing programmers or 16 good programmers is better isn't even talking about outsourcing anymore, and it's obvious that it will depend on what you need the programmers for, not to mention it's a very unrealistic model by any stretch of the imagination.

The fact is that overall, the economy will create it's own equilibrium, with the dollar depreciating against India's currency or wherever you like. This will in general make it less of a cost-saving measure to hire outside jobs and acutally give foreign companies more incentive to hire in America. Sure this isn't of much comfort to the guy who just lost his job overseas, but the fact is, in a competitive market, if you don't have the services that a company needs at the right price, you have to accept that they won't want to hire you. Labor is in many ways just like products. If for example AMD made a processor for $300 that performed only slightly worse than Intel's $700 processor, we sure as hell wouldn't call it unfair on AMD's part that they offer a service more desirable to most consumers. But now that the tables are turned, and we're the less desirable product, we complain about how the system is unfair. I for one am sick of it.

 

[Gibson486]

In the end, you dont need spectacular programmers. You just need good programmers that get everything done. No one cares how the software in implimented. All that matters is that it works.

 

[tec699]

And what will happen when the robots take our jobs! Yea ROBOTS! It will happen. Mark my word guys.

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: BD2003
Well, you said it then, programmers suck in general. Might as well get sucky programmers for the least amount of money you can if theyre all going to suck anyway. Again, you dont have to micromanage the firm of 16 overseas, they do it for you. Whether theyre in india or in america, the upper execs are going to interface with middle management, and as far as the execs are concerned, its a phone call either way.

I've met only one amazing programmer, and he was a dick. But thats besides the point. They kept him around cause he was amazing, but if there were amazing indian programmers for half the cost, he'd be gone in a heartbeat. But sadly, as you have already pointed out, most american programmers suck.

But youre making the mistake of thinking that businesses are out there to make the best code they can. They are only concerned with making money. The bottom line is ALL that matters. If india is cheaper, and they do a good enough job, then so be it. The code might not be pretty (but who are you to say?), but if its cheaper, then its a win. Simple.

Like I said before, there is a reason why the programmers are not the execs.

It's not really possible to be a jerk and a great programmer. Sounds more like your average skilled programmer who just rants a lot and thinks he knows more than everyone. Dime a dozen! I have seen some people online who had tremendous skills but I was very skeptical about how they would do in a team environment.

No one cares if your code is the best in terms of any one facet. But there are many thing that are frequently ignored that have a direct impact on the company's overall budget. For example, there's the ever elusive usability improvements. You spend money and get no "real" money in return, but in the end it often pays off because of improved productivity. As I mentioned before, there's also methodologies that facilitate easy upgrades / new features / adaptability to other systems/sites. Those are of tremendous benefit. If you can get one guy to copy your system and configure it for another site from the same DLLs, you are doing extremely well.

[added for clarity]
Of course there are amazing programmers in india. But what are the odds that they will work for chump change at an outsourcing firm? The same as the odds of a great programmer working for a company that thinks "as long as the program works, that's good enough".

 

[fawhfe]

Originally posted by: tec699
And what will happen when the robots take our jobs! Yea ROBOTS! It will happen. Mark my word guys.

Haha, then all the people who are laid off will go to work building and maintaining robots. Or if you like, the robots can either kill us or enslave us in a virtual matrix where we are used for fuel and never have to worry about outsourcing again.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: fawhfe
I think the problem is that a lot of people are naturally assuming that Indians are inferior workers to Americans (since they are a thrid world country and apparently demand less pay). I'm confident you can find just as many "amazing programmers" in India as you can in America. Their colleges are recruited from by some of the largest companes in America for management positions. All this arguing about whether 4 amazing programmers or 16 good programmers is better isn't even talking about outsourcing anymore, and it's obvious that it will depend on what you need the programmers for, not to mention it's a very unrealistic model by any stretch of the imagination.

The fact is that overall, the economy will create it's own equilibrium, with the dollar depreciating against India's currency or wherever you like. This will in general make it less of a cost-saving measure to hire outside jobs and acutally give foreign companies more incentive to hire in America. Sure this isn't of much comfort to the guy who just lost his job overseas, but the fact is, in a competitive market, if you don't have the services that a company needs at the right price, you have to accept that they won't want to hire you. Labor is in many ways just like products. If for example AMD made a processor for $300 that performed only slightly worse than Intel's $700 processor, we sure as hell wouldn't call it unfair on AMD's part that they offer a service more desirable to most consumers. But now that the tables are turned, and we're the less desirable product, we complain about how the system is unfair. I for one am sick of it.

Indeed. But the problem is that most americans do not understand this, and are so used to the american way of life. That is going to change. In a world economy, you are not just competing with local labor, youre competing with worldwide labor.

Take e-commerce as an example. Back in the day, before it, you would usually buy from whichever B&M store around you had the cheapest stuff. That probably give you very few choices. With the internet, you just check pricewatch or better yet, ebay, and youre instantly given the cheapest price you can get it on the entire web, which is pretty much everywhere. Now businesses are competiing with everyone worldwide rather than their immediate neighbors, and the end result is prices go down, and they all make less money, and have to find a way to compete. Consumers are the ones who will benefit in the end as businesses restructure, and many fall by the wayside cause they just werent competitive enough.

And likewise, the labor market will function in exactly the same way. There will be winners, and there will be losers, and the losers will be the ones who did not evolve to compete. With such a massive web of competition, you will have to be the best of the best. When you search pricewatch, youre looking only at the top of the list. Over time, it will all sort itself out, so rather than whining about how things arent how they used to be, you are going to have to learn to compete.

Or alternatively, you can lower your standard of living, something which americans appear simply uable to do. We're such spoiled brats.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: Gibson486
In the end, you dont need spectacular programmers. You just need good programmers that get everything done. No one cares how the software in implimented. All that matters is that it works.

Ala Microsoft? How much do you figure it costs them to put out all those patches and services packs?
That's the difference between having "good programmers that get everything done" and programmers who write good code. They may not care how the software is implemented at first, but when bugs and exploits come in, then they start to care.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Gibson486
In the end, you dont need spectacular programmers. You just need good programmers that get everything done. No one cares how the software in implimented. All that matters is that it works.

Ala Microsoft? How much do you figure it costs them to put out all those patches and services packs?
That's the difference between having "good programmers that get everything done" and programmers who write good code. They may not care how the software is implemented at first, but when bugs and exploits come in, then they start to care.

I'm sure they still come out ahead in the end, because we will buy it no matter what, because we dont really have a choice.

 

[Gibson486]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Gibson486
In the end, you dont need spectacular programmers. You just need good programmers that get everything done. No one cares how the software in implimented. All that matters is that it works.

Ala Microsoft? How much do you figure it costs them to put out all those patches and services packs?
That's the difference between having "good programmers that get everything done" and programmers who write good code. They may not care how the software is implemented at first, but when bugs and exploits come in, then they start to care.

Just so you know, MS hires some of the most spectacular programmers there are. They don't just take anyone with a 3.5 GPA or above.

 

[cchen]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975
If you think ANY job is safe, look again.

Department of Defense. Enough said.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Gibson486
In the end, you dont need spectacular programmers. You just need good programmers that get everything done. No one cares how the software in implimented. All that matters is that it works.

Ala Microsoft? How much do you figure it costs them to put out all those patches and services packs?
That's the difference between having "good programmers that get everything done" and programmers who write good code. They may not care how the software is implemented at first, but when bugs and exploits come in, then they start to care.

I'm sure they still come out ahead in the end, because we will buy it no matter what, because we dont really have a choice.

Of COURSE Microsoft will be fine, I'm just using that as an example. Most companies aren't Microsoft.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: Gibson486

Just so you know, MS hires some of the most spectacular programmers there are. They don't just take anyone with a 3.5 GPA or above.

Or anyone that bothers to check any buffers in their code?

 

[fawhfe]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Gibson486
In the end, you dont need spectacular programmers. You just need good programmers that get everything done. No one cares how the software in implimented. All that matters is that it works.

Ala Microsoft? How much do you figure it costs them to put out all those patches and services packs?
That's the difference between having "good programmers that get everything done" and programmers who write good code. They may not care how the software is implemented at first, but when bugs and exploits come in, then they start to care.

I'm sure they still come out ahead in the end, because we will buy it no matter what, because we dont really have a choice.

Of COURSE Microsoft will be fine, I'm just using that as an example. Most companies aren't Microsoft.

If it does end up costing them more money to outsource their code, then probably someone will get fired over the decision and they'll come back to American workers. Might be too late at that point financially, but thats what you get for not doing your research before making a decision like that. We don't need those kinds of near-sighted companies anyways. The good companies, like you said in the caes of Microsoft, will be just fine.