Our supposed EV future....(updated)

[FelixDeCat]

GM couldn't make a 4-banger if their (customer's) life depended on it, literally

You hope the don't botch wiring and software like they did with their ignition modules. (but they probably will SOMEHOW).

I've owned 17 vehicles since 1988, including a few Chevy's. Overall they are not that bad. Just basic transportation.

My first car was an ice blue 1972 Cadillac Coupe DeVille that was exactly like this one:

 

[FelixDeCat]

This has been addressed by others, no one is forcing anyone to do anything. It is up to the consumer/marketplace. I do see EV's coming down to price parity with ICE vehicles within 5-7 years.

California is forcing ownership on others:

California Mandates Electric Cars for 2035 and Here's What That Means | Edmunds

Under Gov. Gavin Newsom, California has issued a directive to eliminate vehicle emissions starting in 2035, which theoretically means all new vehicles from that point on will need to be EVs. Here's what it means to you.

www.edmunds.com

 

[FelixDeCat]

I do think they should push towards being all EV, BUT they need to make EVs more wildly available first. I can buy a decent ICE vehicle for under 15k on the used market right now. I want to be able to buy an EV on the used market for the same price range. Until that becomes reality I hope they don't force them. I really want an EV but they are just out of reach for me right now. I can't justify buying new. That's like 1/2 the cost of a house.

Amen. I cant justify the extra cost either. So ICE will make more sense to me the foreseeable future....unless something comes along in the EV space that exites me AND is price competitive.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Owning an EV wouldn't "bother" me at all, if I could get one for 25k, didnt have to worry about having the range cut by 50% in subzero weather, and it had 500 mile plus range. Whether you like it, or more accurately, are willing to admit it, EVs currently have serious disadvantages for some users. Hopefully, those will be addressed, especially the price, as more EVs come on line and used models become more readily available.

This is why I think hybrids could make more headroom than pure EVs. You have the reliability of ICE, the ability to run as an EV in the city and no range anxiety if you can find a gas station. Whats not to like?

 

[Heartbreaker]

California is forcing ownership on others:
https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/california-mandates-electric-cars-for-2035.html

Incorrect, they aren't forcing anyone to own anything.

 

[Heartbreaker]

This is why I think hybrids could make more headroom than pure EVs. You have the reliability of ICE, the ability to run as an EV in the city and no range anxiety if you can find a gas station. Whats not to like?

I assume you mean "plug in hybrids" and "headway".

Whats not to like about PHEVs? Increased price, increased complexity and maintenance, questionable driving characteristics in one or both modes.

PHEVs a short term solution that is already being abandoned in some areas. GM ditched the Volt for pure EVs.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Incorrect, they aren't forcing anyone to own anything.

I dont understand your misplaced hostility towards me. When I was asking for someone else's particular opinion you felt the need to respond even though you werent asked. While you are free to do so, it was kind of tacky.

I think Ill put you on ignore until April since I do not like speaking to curt and hostile people. I wont be reading your posts or responding to you until then.

Now, going to the point I made in that post to someone else - if one state mandates that only EVs can be sold within its borders, how is that not forcing ownership when one wants to purchase a new ICE or hybrid car from a local dealer?

Sure you can go OUT OF STATE and buy a new car, or you can buy a used car, or find some other way to get around but the choice is made for you by the state when it comes to a new ICE car in 2035 in California - and the choice is no choice.

 

[Heartbreaker]

I dont understand your misplaced hostility towards me. When I was asking for someone else's particular opinion you felt the need to respond even though you werent asked. While you are free to do so, it was kind of tacky.

What's hostile about pointing out your repeated incorrect statements? Read what people reply and stop repeating the same mistake.

Or calling your on your ridiculous, phony FUD that that started this thread with. Don't post disingenuous FUD bordering on trolling, if you don't want to be called on it.

Also not sure where you get the idea, only one particular person is supposed to reply to a post, this is never the case on forums ever. If you wan't to talk to just one person, PM them.

Someone wrote "This has been addressed by others, no one is forcing anyone to do anything "

And you responded again with the falsehood about "forcing ownership".

So I again repeated no one is forcing anyone to own anything.

Even pointed out, multiple times by multiple people you can't grasp the mistake you are making?

Now, going to the point I made in that post to someone else - if one state mandates that only EVs can be sold within its borders, how is that not forcing ownership when one wants to purchase a new ICE or hybrid car from a local dealer?

Sure you can go OUT OF STATE and buy a new car, or you can buy a used car, or find some other way to get around but the choice is made for you by the state when it comes to a new ICE car in 2035 in California - and the choice is no choice.

Even if every State in the country stops selling gas cars in 2035, no one is "forcing you to own" an EV, so stop saying the are "forcing ownership".

You never, ever have to buy an EV. They aren't going to charge with failure to own an EV. The police aren't going to your house to drag you to the EV dealer and force you to buy and own an EV.

Your logic is broken.

 

[Red Squirrel]

I think what he means is that he is worried they could potentially make it illegal to sell or even own gas cars, which means you won't have a choice but to get an EV instead. But I think as long as owning a gas car says legal and just the sales of NEW ones is not it will force auto makers to make and sell more EVs (which is good) and there will be enough transition time for EVs to get more affordable.

 

[FelixDeCat]

I think what he means is that he is worried they could potentially make it illegal to sell or even own gas cars, which means you won't have a choice but to get an EV instead. But I think as long as owning a gas car says legal and just the sales of NEW ones is not it will force auto makers to make and sell more EVs (which is good) and there will be enough transition time for EVs to get more affordable.

I bought a new car in 2019 and its 60% PIF. It is well equipped sedan Ive considered trading in for a new SUV from the same maker. Prior to that I had an older car that I had a nice, long term relationship with. I spent many hours keeping it clean and in good operation with regular tuneups and perhaps even unneeded care.

I enjoy working on cars and getting my hands dirty. Diagnosing problems and fixing them myself if I can. While my current car only has about 25,000 miles and only needed tire rotations and oil changes, Ive been learning how the engine is designed and works.

I remember back when I used to drive nothing but manual transmissions because I enjoyed the engagement but over time, I eventually transitioned to automatics. Mine is a 6 speed, and thankfully not a CVT.

Ironically the same automaker put in a CVT for the 2020 model year and reports of sudden failures are rolling in. I will try my best to avoid that type of transmission.

Heck one day I might even a buy another manual.....if I can find one.

 

[thedarkwolf]

I do think they should push towards being all EV, BUT they need to make EVs more wildly available first. I can buy a decent ICE vehicle for under 15k on the used market right now. I want to be able to buy an EV on the used market for the same price range. Until that becomes reality I hope they don't force them. I really want an EV but they are just out of reach for me right now. I can't justify buying new. That's like 1/2 the cost of a house.

Used Chevy bolts are cheap and can be found for $15k or less without looking hard. They aren't cool but bang for the buck they are one of the best EV deals around, 240 miles btw. Even brand new they are cheap and have great lease deals, 260 miles on new ones. The rest of the cheap EVs are low range cars.

 

[manly]

I think what he means is that he is worried they could potentially make it illegal to sell or even own gas cars, which means you won't have a choice but to get an EV instead. But I think as long as owning a gas car says legal and just the sales of NEW ones is not it will force auto makers to make and sell more EVs (which is good) and there will be enough transition time for EVs to get more affordable.

guidryp rightly calls this FUD. Even wacky California isn't taking away everyone's ICE autos in 2035.
It's not hostility when you call out someone's bullshit as... bullshit.

 

[ondma]

guidryp rightly calls this FUD. Even wacky California isn't taking away everyone's ICE autos in 2035.
It's not hostility when you call out someone's bullshit as... bullshit.

Not in one fell swoop in 2035, no. But that will eventually happen as ICE cars wear out and only can be replaced with electrics. So they aren't *directly* taking away ICE vehicles, but they certainly are (if the regulations stand) taking them away by attrition.

 

[Torn Mind]

I've owned 17 vehicles since 1988, including a few Chevy's. Overall they are not that bad. Just basic transportation.

My first car was an ice blue 1972 Cadillac Coupe DeVille that was exactly like this one:

Well, given that Toyota wrecked them out of the compact market. and their new trucks are "flaky", they would be well served to jump off the ICE.
Chevy compacts can be fine in their first 100k-150k, but they just simply are not as foolproof as the Corolla. Toyotas are going to be at the top of the ICE game when EVs take over the cities.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Not in one fell swoop in 2035, no. But that will eventually happen as ICE cars wear out and only can be replaced with electrics. So they aren't *directly* taking away ICE vehicles, but they certainly are (if the regulations stand) taking them away by attrition.

Maybe 2040 for the rest of the country. But so what?

You are worried about which consumer products, might fall off the consumer market 15-20 years in the future? How many people are driving 25+ year old classic cars. If you dead set against EVs, you can buy the last new ICE car in 2040, and keep it running the rest of your life.

But at that point, of a theoretical end to new ICE sales, how many people are left that would still even want a gas powered car. How many manufactures are going to still be selling them? By the time of the "ban" there probably won't be much left to ban.

All the people complaining about the "looming" 15-20 year deadline, might already have EVs years before then.

Right now EVs still cost more up front (though they save a lot on running costs), and that limits sales more than anything else. But somewhere in the coming decade that will reverse, and the tide will turn dramatically.

Once EVs are cheaper, it's over in dramatic fashion for the ICE. Most people will stop rationalizing against EVs, and start trying to figure out any conceivable way they can make and EV (and all the savings) work for them. At that point ICE car sales will plummet.

Not only will EVs be cheaper to buy and fuel, but they have less maintenance and for most people they are better driving experience. EVs will be win-win-win with consumers.

Recent surveys I have read said:
90% of today's EV buyers would never go back to ICE, 9% were unsure, and only 1% wanted to go back to ICE.
Just getting a drive as a passenger in an EV tripled the interest in buying an EV.

Basically EVs are just better cars for most people, if they fit their driving pattern or they can make their driving pattern fit the EV.

Note that in the above I haven't mentioned one more factor. The environmental impact. That's because even without the environmental factor, EVs will take over. They are just that much better.

Change is coming. You can embrace it, and figure out how it can work for you, or you can worry and whine about it, but the latter choice will not stop change.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Used Chevy bolts are cheap and can be found for $15k or less without looking hard. They aren't cool but bang for the buck they are one of the best EV deals around, 240 miles btw. Even brand new they are cheap and have great lease deals, 260 miles on new ones. The rest of the cheap EVs are low range cars.

Maybe if you live in the GTA or other metro area. There are no used EVs at all in my area, I rarely even see them new. But hopefully by pushing car makers to only make EVs this will eventually change. People are too worried about the cold weather performance to buy them around here. As long as the battery has proper thermal management to warm itself up before charging or using I don't think it should be an issue though. I also hear people worry about the cost of charging it since our hydro rates are really high here, but by not needing to buy gas, which goes up all the time, it would more than make up for it and still end up being way cheaper.

 

[sdifox]

Maybe if you live in the GTA or other metro area. There are no used EVs at all in my area, I rarely even see them new. But hopefully by pushing car makers to only make EVs this will eventually change. People are too worried about the cold weather performance to buy them around here. As long as the battery has proper thermal management to warm itself up before charging or using I don't think it should be an issue though. I also hear people worry about the cost of charging it since our hydro rates are really high here, but by not needing to buy gas, which goes up all the time, it would more than make up for it and still end up being way cheaper.

you know importing cars are not that hard to do right?

 

[Red Squirrel]

you know importing cars are not that hard to do right?

That's a huge pain and very expensive by the time you factor in hotel stay etc. There may be flat bed tow services that will save you the trouble but I don't imagine that would be cheap either.

 

[sdifox]

That's a huge pain and very expensive by the time you factor in hotel stay etc. There may be flat bed tow services that will save you the trouble but I don't imagine that would be cheap either.

Eh? I flew in to Peoria IL in the morning and drove an uaed E350 4Matic home without hotel stay. Granted there were two of us.

It was cheaper than a new Camry.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Eh? I flew in to Peoria IL in the morning and drove an uaed E350 4Matic home without hotel stay. Granted there were two of us.

It was cheaper than a new Camry.

About 15 years ago I bought a Mercedes 190E in San Diego and a C230 in Philadelphia.

Ah Ebay Motors.....

 

[Red Squirrel]

Eh? I flew in to Peoria IL in the morning and drove an uaed E350 4Matic home without hotel stay. Granted there were two of us.

It was cheaper than a new Camry.

That's still a pain having to do that - out of country sounds like an even bigger nightmare. I don't want to deal with any of that. And how did you even get through the border with a car that you did not go through with to get out? Wouldn't that raise red flags? How did you even register it when it's not even in province? All of this just sounds like it would be a huge pain to deal with.

At that point I would rather just wait for new EVs to come down in price hopefully, and buy new.

 

[sdifox]

That's still a pain having to do that - out of country sounds like an even bigger nightmare. I don't want to deal with any of that. And how did you even get through the border with a car that you did not go through with to get out? Wouldn't that raise red flags? How did you even register it when it's not even in province? All of this just sounds like it would be a huge pain to deal with.

At that point I would rather just wait for new EVs to come down in price hopefully, and buy new.

All very simple. Just need to find a car that is sold in USA and Canada. Buy knsurance effective date of pickup. Dealer arranged transit plate (I think it was US20)
Drive to US customs, show paper work for exporting vehicle, get it stamped. Drive to Canadian Custom, pay taxes, drive home. Take it to Crappy Tires for an inspection, and take that paperwork to service Ontario to register vehicle.

After taxes and duty (German car so 10.5% duty) it came to C$37K. Canadian MB dealer wanted 42K before taxes for a C350 of same year, not even E350.

 

[Red Squirrel]

All very simple. Just need to find a car that is sold in USA and Canada. Buy knsurance effective date of pickup. Dealer arranged transit plate (I think it was US20)
Drive to US customs, show paper work for exporting vehicle, get it stamped. Drive to Canadian Custom, pay taxes, drive home. Take it to Crappy Tires for an inspection, and take that paperwork to service Ontario to register vehicle.

After taxes and duty (German car so 10.5% duty) it came to C$37K. Canadian MB dealer wanted 42K before taxes for a C350 of same year, not even E350.

That still sounds like a pain having to arrange all that. If I was in a position to spend 37k on a car I would just pay a bit more and buy new locally. Chevy bolt is around 45k, so let's say 60k out the door once taxes etc are factored in. Hoping EV prices will come down to par with gas cars at some point too.

 

[sdifox]

That still sounds like a pain having to arrange all that. If I was in a position to spend 37k on a car I would just pay a bit more and buy new locally. Chevy bolt is around 45k, so let's say 55k out the door once taxes etc are factored in. Hoping EV prices will come down to par with gas cars at some point too.

LoL you think that is a pain? How do you even code then?

 

[Red Squirrel]

LoL you think that is a pain? How do you even code then?

Odd comparison. Coding does not require making a bunch of phone calls all over, researching stuff, booking stuff, having to plan at trip, having to figure out where I have to go in a city I have no clue about etc. You'd also need to rent a car from the airport then figure out how to bring it back etc.

But anyway think this is getting off topic. I do hope the used market eventually gets better here for EVs if the prices can come down new and people here can gain more confidence in them.