Osama Bin Laden is Dead. President to make a speech soon.

[UberNeuman]

Hindsight being 20/20 and all, it makes a lot of sense now that he did an immediate about face on GITMO, and "made "catching" Osama a priority".

Seems Obama made it a priority back in 2008

\yah, it's a DailyKos link - however don't even pretend that this was something Obama did as a out of the spur the moment....

 

[CLite]

I'm sure that the lefties were as full of nuance as ever. However, his point was what they were saying, not the motivations behind those sayings. For the record, I have no problem whatsoever believing that the left (most of it) wanted Bin Laden brought to justice. However, it is undeniably true that the left has also been railing against unilateral actions, invading sovereign foreign countries, assassination without trial or arrest, rendition, and the very existence of Guantanamo and other secret CIA interrogation prisons - in short, against many of the very things that President Obama used to kill Usama Bin Laden.

The key point is the scope of application of the extraordinary measures. Under Bush, and possible under Obama there have been documented cases of multiyear holdings of perfectly innocent people. These people have been citizens of our allies (Canada/Germany/etc) and our own country. There was clearly an overreach in the program that led to abusive implementation of these renditions/detentions. This fact can't be debated, whether or not you approve of the ultimate results.

What happened today was the assassination of someone who has confessed to the largest terrorist act in history, and whom we have confirmed masterminded the crime by many sources of intelligence. It also happened in a country which has approved the action.

Who makes the final decision as to when to do these black ops? Clearly doing it for Osama was the correct course of action, just as clearly going after innocent citizens of our allies was the terribly wrong course of action. I don't mind the president having the ultimate decision supported by a strong advisory network and rarely using the power, what I do mind is the intelligence agency getting itself into a frenzy of renditions and playing God.

 

[wuliheron]

I'm sure that the lefties were as full of nuance as ever. However, his point was what they were saying, not the motivations behind those sayings. For the record, I have no problem whatsoever believing that the left (most of it) wanted Bin Laden brought to justice. However, it is undeniably true that the left has also been railing against unilateral actions, invading sovereign foreign countries, assassination without trial or arrest, rendition, and the very existence of Guantanamo and other secret CIA interrogation prisons - in short, against many of the very things that President Obama used to kill Usama Bin Laden.

Those lefties are tricky bastards, just like the damn Chinese. Can't trust any of 'em. Politicians say one thing and do another. Talk real nice and friendly like, and then get ya when your guards down!

 

[HybridSquirrel]

Right, because it is the carcass of a Blackhawk after being intentionally blown up by US Forces. Chinooks don't have tail booms as seen in the pic, they are the copters with two rotors on top rotating in opposite directions.

i know, but everyone has been saying chinook -_-

 

[FuzzyBee]

Interesting, though the second link shows we got a lead about the town, but not about the courier that actually led us to OBL. The first link has that same WikiLeaks citation. It also quotes Bush administration officials as stating we got important information via Gitmo, but that's an old quote. It appears the Guardian is inferring that old quote applies to yesterday's raid.

Close, but neither contradicts the AP article, and neither shows waterboarding produced intel used yesterday. But thanks, that's more than Spidey has.

From the other thread you posted the same thing in:

In 2007, U.S. officials who were interrogating Guantanamo detainees finally learned the real name of a former Khalid Sheikh Muhammad protégé who had become an important confidante of Abu Faraj al Libi. Al Libi was captured in 2005 and also taken to Guantanamo."

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/inside-operation-brought-osama-bin-laden/story?id=13506413

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (KSM), who was repeatedly subjected to methods including “waterboarding” and stress positions, provided the CIA with the name of bin Laden’s personal courier, according to US officials.
A second source – also an al-Qaeda “leader” held at Guantanamo Bay – then confirmed the courier’s identity, sparking an intense manhunt that resulted in the dramatic final raid.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...en-killed-after-tip-offs-from-Guantanamo.html

 

[Zebo]

Again, do you have a credible source to support this claim?


Here's an AP article, printed in the Houston Chronicle (from the first link I found on Google): One unwary phone call led US to bin Laden doorstep

Here are the relevant sections:

WASHINGTON — Officials say CIA interrogators in secret overseas prisons developed the first strands of information that ultimately led to the killing of Osama bin Laden.

Current and former U.S. officials say that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, provided the nom de guerre of one of bin Laden’s most trusted aides. The CIA got similar information from Mohammed’s successor, Abu Faraj al-Libi. Both were subjected to harsh interrogation tactics inside CIA prisons in Poland and Romania.

Tweet

The news is sure to reignite debate over whether the now-closed interrogation and detention program was successful. Former president George W. Bush authorized the CIA to use the harshest interrogation tactics in U.S. history. President Barack Obama closed the prison system.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...d-to-bin-laden/2011/05/02/AFHjfCZF_story.html

 

[Capt Caveman]

Anybody watching ABC Nightline? Good stuff. Pics of Obama and his staff watching it go down and animations of what exactly happened and video of inside the compound and where he was killed.

 

[Rainsford]

I'm sure that the lefties were as full of nuance as ever. However, his point was what they were saying, not the motivations behind those sayings. For the record, I have no problem whatsoever believing that the left (most of it) wanted Bin Laden brought to justice. However, it is undeniably true that the left has also been railing against unilateral actions, invading sovereign foreign countries, assassination without trial or arrest, rendition, and the very existence of Guantanamo and other secret CIA interrogation prisons - in short, against many of the very things that President Obama used to kill Usama Bin Laden.

I can't speak for everyone on the left, but again I think you're overly simplifying things. Objecting to a particular unilateral action doesn't mean I object to all unilateral actions in all circumstances, to pick just one example. Sometimes it's necessary because of the circumstances and the groups involved. Sometimes it's a poorly considered way of approaching a situation that will cause more problems than it solves.

I also think that you're making a lot of assumptions about what led to killing Osama bin Laden without actually knowing anything. Was the cause in any way assisted by waterboarding, secret detention centers, holding people without trial, or any of the other things that people have objected to? Or would it have happened just as well, or maybe even better or sooner, had we approached the problem differently? I suspect we'll never know, but it seems dishonest (and convenient) to claim victory for your point of view without having any supporting detail.

I guess my only point is that the world is not really as simple and convenient as people would like. And more importantly, that not everything can or should be turned into yet more proof of the superiority of your political ideology. There are a lot of liberals who support what happened with Osama, and there are almost certainly a lot of liberals who directly had a hand in making it happen. If you find that hard to square with your view of liberalism, it might be worth considering that maybe your view needs some tweaking.

 

[davmat787]

Anybody watching ABC Nightline? Good stuff. Pics of Obama and his staff watching it go down and animations of what exactly happened and video of inside the compound and where he was killed.

Nightline isn't on for three more hours where I live, you really should use the spoiler tool! Seriously, will put it on my list, thanks.

 

[Bowfinger]

WASHINGTON — Officials say CIA interrogators in secret overseas prisons developed the first strands of information that ultimately led to the killing of Osama bin Laden.

Current and former U.S. officials say that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, provided the nom de guerre of one of bin Laden’s most trusted aides. The CIA got similar information from Mohammed’s successor, Abu Faraj al-Libi. Both were subjected to harsh interrogation tactics inside CIA prisons in Poland and Romania.

Tweet

The news is sure to reignite debate over whether the now-closed interrogation and detention program was successful. Former president George W. Bush authorized the CIA to use the harshest interrogation tactics in U.S. history. President Barack Obama closed the prison system.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...d-to-bin-laden/2011/05/02/AFHjfCZF_story.html

Yes, the AP story I linked says the same thing. It then says that KHM's information about the couriers came "many months later under standard interrogation." Nonetheless, from the articles others linked I can see how they'd reach conflicting conclusions. Perhaps we'll get more definitive information over the next few days or weeks ... or perhaps the government will settle on an official story that tells us want they want us to know.

 

[ProfJohn]

We will never know if KSM's water boarding had something to do with the information being released.

It may have come months later, but we don't know if he was threatened or broken or more helpful due to waterboarding etc etc.

For all we know every time they talked to the guy they asked him if wanted to do things the nice way or the not so nice way. It is not like KSM was sitting in his cell reading the NY Times realizing that he would never be waterboarded again.

 

[nobodyknows]

I'm not mad at all. I'm quite happy that some people can set aside every principal that they've championed for the last 10 years and come right out to state that the ends justify the means.

I'm pretty proud of the left today.

Bush Quotes about Bin Laden


For your amusement and future reference, here's what Bush has said about bin Laden at various points in time, depending on how he was trying to spin things:

"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him."
- G.W. Bush, 9/13/01

"I want justice...There's an old poster out West, as I recall, that said, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive,'"
- G.W. Bush, 9/17/01, UPI

"...Secondly, he is not escaping us. This is a guy, who, three months ago, was in control of a county [sic]. Now he's maybe in control of a cave. He's on the run. Listen, a while ago I said to the American people, our objective is more than bin Laden. But one of the things for certain is we're going to get him running and keep him running, and bring him to justice. And that's what's happening. He's on the run, if he's running at all. So we don't know whether he's in cave with the door shut, or a cave with the door open -- we just don't know...."
- Bush, in remarks in a Press Availablity with the Press Travel Pool,
The Prairie Chapel Ranch, Crawford TX, 12/28/01, as reported on
official White House site

"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02

"I am truly not that concerned about him."
- G.W. Bush, repsonding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts,
3/13/02 (The New American, 4/8/02)

LOL@ the Bush apologist. You seem all butt hurt??

 

[Steeplerot]

Bin Laden is not a priority - GW Bush

Remember when he joked bout OBL search by looking under his chair?

For all you Bush apologists. Got 2 words for you:TORA BORA

Clinton got closer then bush ever did to OBL.

Time for another landslide.

 

[Zebo]

Yes, the AP story I linked says the same thing. It then says that KHM's information about the couriers came "many months later under standard interrogation." Nonetheless, from the articles others linked I can see how they'd reach conflicting conclusions. Perhaps we'll get more definitive information over the next few days or weeks ... or perhaps the government will settle on an official story that tells us want they want us to know.

Conflicting indeed and we'll never know. I doubt govt is wanting to admit it if enhanced interrogation was helpful. I have a feeling it is since Obama is not only keeping with Bush policies but extending them. He has more brains tho and keeps it on the down low. But Greenwald over at salon does a pretty good expose in his articles.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Good god. The partisan hack asshats in this forum need to STFU. This was a joint effort. BHO used intel from the Bush era and pulled this off. One didn't do it without the other and, frankly, neither had that much to do with it personally. It was the CIA and our military that accomplished this based on intel gathered over a long perod of time. It's a victory for the US as a whole, not for any political party.

 

[zinfamous]

explain this? I thought it was a pretty clean grab and go type deal, no losses on our side at all? does osama have military helicopterS?

this was explained before Obama even spoke yesterday...

 

[davmat787]

Good god. The partisan hack asshats in this forum need to STFU. This was a joint effort. BHO used intel from the Bush era and pulled this off. One didn't do it without the other and, frankly, neither had that much to do with it personally. It was the CIA and our military that accomplished this based on intel gathered over a long perod of time. It's a victory for the US as a whole, not for any political party.

Agreed. On one side the partisan hacks would have either voted for Obama no matter what, and on the other would never vote for him even if Trump was the (R) nominee so in the end it probably won't make a difference other than being highly annoying.

On another note it seems like the CIA is historically an easy target for many as we never hear of their successes, only the failures due to the nature of their work. From time to time you even hear someone saying the CIA should be shut down. This time we are getting a peek into their inner workings regarding the Osama kill op and all the human intelligence work leading up to it. Great job CIA! :thumbsup:

 

[zinfamous]

I thought I'd post this here too, since I see PJ and others claiming this was somehow due to intel we got at Guantanamo through waterboarding, or similar "aggressive interrogation" techniques. That doesn't appear to be correct based on what I've read. Can anyone cite a credible source supporting this? (I haven't read the whole thread, so if it's already here somewhere I'd appreciate a link.)


Here's an AP article, printed in the Houston Chronicle (from the first link I found on Google): One unwary phone call led US to bin Laden doorstep

Here are the relevant sections:

Anderson Cooper of CNN reported GITMO tonight.

But, I learned a few years ago on ATOT that CNN is a commie librul hack outfit dispensing unpatriotic anti-freedom lies.

so...I wouldn't trust that either.

:\

 

[zinfamous]

You haven't been paying attention then. Kalid Shake Mohammed (butchered spelling) is the one that gave up the courier's name that eventually lead to OBL. He gave it up under "enhanced interrogation techniques".

Face it. Gitmo and the CIA special prisons/interrogations are directly responsible for finding and killing OBL and are extremely effective tools in the war on terror. That's why Obama is keeping them.

Obama had his "oh shit, Bush was right" moment and you're seeing the results of these policies. It's the only logical conclusion from him continuing them.

actually, pretty long and extensive article from Steve Coll, I believe, a few years back, detailing the nature of interrogation and how--even under BUSH-you're hero--policy was reversed from torture to more useful forms of interrogation

pretty much all of the useful intel came without torture. Mohammed was the main subject of the article; his intel through torture having been tossed into the can.


http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/08/13/070813fa_fact_mayer

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/01/21/080121fa_fact_wright

 

[Zebo]

Good god. The partisan hack asshats in this forum need to STFU. This was a joint effort. BHO used intel from the Bush era and pulled this off. One didn't do it without the other and, frankly, neither had that much to do with it personally. It was the CIA and our military that accomplished this based on intel gathered over a long perod of time. It's a victory for the US as a whole, not for any political party.

Nice try but results matter. Trying okay for k-12 but not in RL. Point is Obama will get credit over Bush no matter how much Bush may have helped.

 

[zinfamous]

Way to nit-pick. He gave it up at a CIA special prison which is what lefties were all up in arms about among others.

You're nit-picking the difference between "standard interrogation" and "enhanced interrogation" in a "secret CIA prison". All of those things were what libtards were against, and they have proven extremely useful in killing OBL. If Obama had his way all of those tools would be gone, that's what he promised in his campaign right?

But yet he's still using them. Why is that? Logic says because they work and their effectiveness is proven with today's accomplishment. Thanks Bush! And Thanks Obama for continuing it!

no one is against interrogation.

the word you are referring to is torture.

that is what doesn't get results.


well...except for TV.

 

[Fear No Evil]

no one is against interrogation.

the word you are referring to is torture.

that is what doesn't get results.


well...except for TV.

Apparently it does.

 

[zinfamous]

Apparently it does.

does it?

so you choose to pick one conflicting report over the other because:

1) you want to
2) have inside information that 10 stories reporting one thing are accurate, as opposed to 10 stories reporting the other.


this shit is happening right now, so it's foolish for any of us to claim that we know what the fuck went down. it's laughable-we sound like god damn idiots. AS IF ANY OF US ON ATOT KNOW WTF IS GOING ON BEHIND THE SCENES.

we will likely never know the specifics. pint is: we do know that much of the info we gained leading to this event was obtained as torture was being phased out--or so we were told --

read Rainsford's posts. dude is spot on.



from what I have read over the years regarding interrogation and torture:

torture is only useful, and rarely at that, in short-term scenarios. You have a few days only to get what you need, and stop something. If you're lucky, you win. More than likely, though, you're lead to inactionable junk.
interrogation leads to long-term results. It certainly takes longer, but tends to lead to meaty results.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Nice try but results matter. Trying okay for k-12 but not in RL. Point is Obama will get credit over Bush no matter how much Bush may have helped.

For the k-12 partisan asshats that will be true because they'd rather slit their wrists than admit that the other side may have contributed to the success.

 

[woolfe9999]

I honestly don't care about any of the politics.

I'm just glad the fucker is dead.