Original Gas Thread: Americans enjoying $4 gallon despite oil oversupply highest in 8 yrs

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: sonoma1993
all over my area gas is at $2.99 9/10 a gallon. so pretty much $3.00 a gallon. What can we expect to look foward to in the coming months? gas going back under $3.00 or working it way toward $4.00

Gas folks down here are saying it will double to $6 may go even higher.

The refineries down here are offline. The Oil Tankers cannot off load the Oil here.

Oil barges cannot go up the Mississippi River to the refineries up north.

All we have is Houston, whatever there is in California and New Jersey.

We're cooked but at least maybe now we'll get rid of behemoth 6 mpg vehicles.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey

Originally posted by: umbrella39
Hurricanes have been hitting the Gulf Coast for decades never once did it cause a rise in the price of gas. What a fvcking scam this is.

Were we at 98% of refinery capacity? Were other areas able to pick up the slack for plants that were down due to hurricanes?
Granted, you are correct it seems that previous canes didn't cause such price panic, but as I suggested, there may be a good reason for that.

Good reason? I guess greed is as good a reason as any for price gouging.

I'm sure there is some greedy gouging going on, but there also could also be legit reasons due to our refineries being almost maxed out.

Yeah, right. We're running out of oil, the supply line could be cut at any time, and were running at max capacity. Funny how that can all happen at the same time, don't you think??

What exactly are you insinuating?

If you are suggesting that we should have had more refineries so they all weren't running at ~98% then I agree.

I'm insinuating that you are allowing yourself to be manipulated. Fear and greed are driving the oil market, not supply and demand.

:roll: Manipulated I am not. Oil futures may be being driven by fear and greed, but gasoline definately has supply/demand driving it also.
Lets put this in short easy sentences so you can understand the situation.

USA oil refineries operating at 98% of capacity.
6-8 refineries are shut down due to disaster.
Those shutdowns take away refineries that make as much as 15 percent of the nation's fuel.
Gas prices shoot up due to supply.

Do you not understand that taking away 6-8 refineries might crimp supply since the other facilities are already running at max speed?

Since you like simple, I'll dumb it down for you. You are being MANIPULATED.

We have plenty of gas.

There is no excuse for oil to be over $60/barrel.

NONE.

At this point there is actually a reason. A significant portion of our oil capacity is off line.

But we have an emergency reserve for just such a contingency.

And we are going to refine it where again?

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: sonoma1993
all over my area gas is at $2.99 9/10 a gallon. so pretty much $3.00 a gallon. What can we expect to look foward to in the coming months? gas going back under $3.00 or working it way toward $4.00

Gas folks down here are saying it will double to $6 may go even higher.

The refineries down here are offline. The Oil Tankers cannot off load the Oil here.

Oil barges cannot go up the Mississippi River to the refineries up north.

All we have is Houston, whatever there is in California and New Jersey.

We're cooked but at least maybe now we'll get rid of behemoth 6 mpg vehicles.

Most gas production will be back to normal in a couple weeks.

 

[0marTheZealot]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Since you like simple, I'll dumb it down for you. You are being MANIPULATED.

We have plenty of gas.

There is no excuse for oil to be over $60/barrel.

NONE.

Actually we (the United States) don't have much gas, and the gas that we do have the envirofundawackos won't let us drill.

Drill for gas???


WTF?!?

I hope he's talking about natural gas. We don't have too much natural gas left.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Since you like simple, I'll dumb it down for you. You are being MANIPULATED.

We have plenty of gas.

There is no excuse for oil to be over $60/barrel.

NONE.

Actually we (the United States) don't have much gas, and the oil that we do have the envirofundawackos won't let us drill.

Maybe that's good and maybe it isn't?? I for one don't mind saving some of that oil for the future. You know, CONSERVE some for our kids.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: charrison



And we are going to refine it where again?

They will get it refined whether it is worth $50/barrell or $80/barrell.

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Maybe that's good and maybe it isn't?? I for one don't mind saving some of that oil for the future. You know, CONSERVE some for our kids.

It would take our kids years to get the proper infrastructure to access that oil in a potential emergency.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Since you like simple, I'll dumb it down for you. You are being MANIPULATED.

We have plenty of gas.

There is no excuse for oil to be over $60/barrel.

NONE.

Actually we (the United States) don't have much gas, and the gas that we do have the envirofundawackos won't let us drill.

Drill for gas???


WTF?!?

I hope he's talking about natural gas. We don't have too much natural gas left.

I don't believe he is, esp. considering the discussion has been about gasoline.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: charrison



And we are going to refine it where again?

They will get it refined whether it is worth $50/barrell or $80/barrell.

The last I heard under normal circumstances our refinaries were operating at 96% capacity. As of right now 8% of our refinirg capacity if offline. I guess the oil companies will just miracling oil into gas to make up the difference.

 

[ShadesOfGrey]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey

Originally posted by: umbrella39
Hurricanes have been hitting the Gulf Coast for decades never once did it cause a rise in the price of gas. What a fvcking scam this is.

Were we at 98% of refinery capacity? Were other areas able to pick up the slack for plants that were down due to hurricanes?
Granted, you are correct it seems that previous canes didn't cause such price panic, but as I suggested, there may be a good reason for that.

Good reason? I guess greed is as good a reason as any for price gouging.

I'm sure there is some greedy gouging going on, but there also could also be legit reasons due to our refineries being almost maxed out.

Yeah, right. We're running out of oil, the supply line could be cut at any time, and were running at max capacity. Funny how that can all happen at the same time, don't you think??

What exactly are you insinuating?

If you are suggesting that we should have had more refineries so they all weren't running at ~98% then I agree.

I'm insinuating that you are allowing yourself to be manipulated. Fear and greed are driving the oil market, not supply and demand.

:roll: Manipulated I am not. Oil futures may be being driven by fear and greed, but gasoline definately has supply/demand driving it also.
Lets put this in short easy sentences so you can understand the situation.

USA oil refineries operating at 98% of capacity.
6-8 refineries are shut down due to disaster.
Those shutdowns take away refineries that make as much as 15 percent of the nation's fuel.
Gas prices shoot up due to supply.

Do you not understand that taking away 6-8 refineries might crimp supply since the other facilities are already running at max speed?

Since you like simple, I'll dumb it down for you. You are being MANIPULATED.

We have plenty of gas.

There is no excuse for oil to be over $60/barrel.

NONE.

At this point there is actually a reason. A significant portion of our oil capacity is off line.

What makes you think he'll understand it after you post it when I laid it out in the simplist terms possible?

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: charrison



And we are going to refine it where again?

They will get it refined whether it is worth $50/barrell or $80/barrell.

The last I heard under normal circumstances our refinaries were operating at 96% capacity. As of right now 8% of our refinirg capacity if offline. I guess the oil companies will just miracling oil into gas to make up the difference.

If they can't do it, then we will have to find someone who can.

I don't believe that there isn't enough money in the gas business that we don't have the refinery capacity we need. You say 96% capacity, some say even higher.

Who is giving us these numbers? The same people who make the money off of the perceived shortage and subsequant rising oil prices? Sorry, but I don't believe those numbers.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: charrison



And we are going to refine it where again?

They will get it refined whether it is worth $50/barrell or $80/barrell.

The last I heard under normal circumstances our refinaries were operating at 96% capacity. As of right now 8% of our refinirg capacity if offline. I guess the oil companies will just miracling oil into gas to make up the difference.

If they can't do it, then we will have to find someone who can.

I don't believe that there isn't enough money in the gas business that we don't have the refinery capacity we need. You say 96% capacity, some say even higher.

Who is giving us these numbers? The same people who make the money off of the perceived shortage and subsequant rising oil prices? Sorry, but I don't believe those numbers.

More capicity can be brought it online, it just will not happen overnight. Somehow you think it is windfall for the oil companies to have their capacity reduced and their refinaries broken.

 

[ranmaniac]

I drive a 5 speed automatic Acura RSX, and there isn't much of a difference between the auto and manual for gas mileage. Although in Europe, the UK, manual transmission cars are the majority, and if we had $6 a gallon gas like they do, I probably would switch over to manual just for that extra 2mpg.

 

[umbrella39]

How about 1 new refinery built in the US let's say, ohh, every 25 years or so? What is this and the previous administration's reasons for not building new ones or updating our antiquated ones?

 

[conjur]

Geez.

$3.88 in Death Valley. There are two places in Chicago at $3.54.

National average according to http://www.gaspricewatch.com/new/ is $2.71

 

[PCMerlin]

Food for thought:

from Text

FY 2004 figures:

$25.3 billion:
Exxon Mobil's record-setting profits last year

$3.4 billion:
Fourth-quarter 2004 profit for Chevron-Texaco Corp, double the profit for the same quarter of the previous year.

218%:
Exxon Mobil profit increase last year

145%:
ConocoPhillips profit increase last year

51%:
Shell profit increase last year

39%:
ChevronTexaco profit increase last year

35%:
BP profit increase last year

And, by the way, figures from FY2003:

from: Text

BP ? up 165%
Chevron-Texaco - up 294%
Conoco-Phillips - up 44%
ExxonMobil - up 125%

These are the companies that own the refineries. These are the companies that claim the price per gallon is justified because their refineries are operating at 96-98% to keep up with OUR demand. These are the companies who are not investing in building more refineries to keep up with OUR demand (it would cost them money and take away their excuse for charging higher prices for refined crude). These are the companies that lobbied the government for the big tax breaks on SUV's that get less than 15 MPG. These are the companies that, though they can't afford to invest in infrastructure, can afford $52+ million in political contributions in 2004 alone.

When is it going to stop? Who's going to stop them? The government? I don't think so!!!! They will not risk losing the $52+ million they are getting each year. The gas companies themselves? I don't think so!!! Not as long as WE are willing to ante up at the pumps. Who's left? The Automobile manufacturers? Not as long as WE are buying record numbers of gas-guzzling SUV's and other vehicles.

The only way this will ever come to and end is when WE - YOU AND I - stand up and say ENOUGH! WE have to find ways NOT to use crude oil products, whether it means walking whenever possible, riding a bicycle or moped for short around-town trips, using (OMG) public transportation and carpools (what WILL our neighbors think!). Investing in higher MPG vehicles to replace our current gas-guzzling behemoths. Otherwise, you had best darn well be prepared to spend not 3, not 4, but 5 or 6 dollars per gallon at the pump within the next year (if not sooner).

Ok, I'll hop down off the soapbox now

PCMerlin

 

[0marTheZealot]

The problem with reducing demand is the following:

As demand gets lower (let's assume it gets lower worldwide, more likely our demand reduction would be gobbled up by other countries), there will be excess supply. Let's suppose that we shave off 3 million barrels of oil a day for demand. This will probably relieve much of the jitters in the markets and bring the price of crude down to the mid-20s. Because reducing demand causes "hardship" (oh noes i have to carpool or make 1 big trip!), people are loathe to continue demand reduction in the face of cheap prices. Demand simply creeps back up again and we have this entire cycle again.

The more likely scenario is that our demand reduction will lower the price of oil worldwide, causing a surge in oil consumption from other countries like China and India and Europe. We are right back where we started. Or even worse, because the development of alternatives is that much more postponed (no one will think about alternatives even now, very few projects are profitable even with crude at all time highs).

So long as we ascribe to a culture of infinite growth, demand reduction can not be a permnament goal.

 

[Engineer]

Bush to release oil from SPR.

As others have pointed out, if you don't have refining capacity, what good does it do?

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: umbrella39
How about 1 new refinery built in the US let's say, ohh, every 25 years or so? What is this and the previous administration's reasons for not building new ones or updating our antiquated ones?

It is not up to the the government to build refineries. That is a private sector decision. So far the big money doesn't see increasing refinery capacity as sufficiently profitable.

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey

Hardly. You seem to be lacking in your knowledge of ethanol but we'll leave that aside for a while.
They don't need them? Yeah, who would want to be able to produce more product to keep up with the increasing demand. :roll:
Lets take a look at your Arizona misrepresentation:
20-30 million was raised by private investors just to get that refinery to this stage of the process.
from an anti-refinery site

The company has raised between $20 million and $30 million from private investors ? and spent that money ? over the last five years as it went through the permitting process.

Under state law, the permit is good for five years but will expire if Arizona Clean Fuels does not begin construction within 18 months of the permit?s effective date of May 14, ADEQ said.

Glenn McGinnis, Arizona Clean Fuels chief executive officer, said he believes the company can raise the necessary capital and start construction in time. McGinnis said a total of 50 individuals have invested money in the project thus far, though most of the capital has come from three investors.

McGinnis said all are U.S. investors and wish to remain anonymous. McGinnis said the company now will seek additional investors and work to get the additional permits the company needs to move forward with their plans. The refinery itself will cost about $2 billion, and a proposed underground crude oil pipeline from Mexico about $500 million.

McGinnis said the company will ask ADEQ for an extension if it can't meet the 18-month deadline.

The refinery would be the first one built in the United States in nearly 30 years. The 150,000 barrel-a-day facility would be located on vacant desert land 40 miles east of Yuma, near Tacna.

Company officials have estimated construction could start in 2006 and be completed in 2009.

So it has taken ~5 years just to get to/through the permit process and the nimby/enviros still are fighting it. Don't mind that it won't start producing gas until 2009. Sort of puts a damper on your peak-oil argument.
If anything, the California crisis(and now the hurricane disaster) show the need for more and better refineries - not less. Spreading our capabilities so thin(higher than 90% capacity) has put us in this current situation. So yes, thank you very much nimby/enviro people.

Again, where is the big money looking to invest in refineries? So far the promoters of the Yuma refinery have raised about 1% of the total cost of the refiney (using your numbers). They have cleared the major regulatory hurdle; they have the political establishment in Arizona in their corner; all they need is a big bag of money. So far the major refiners have not stepped forward. Also, the timeframe to get through permitting depends in large part on how fast the permit requestor moves. The regulators generally have mandated review deadlines to meet.

As an aside: I live in Arizona, I would be downwind of the proposed refiney, and I don't see a problem with this one. I've lived in a refinery town before and other than a few dead air nights when the air got a bit thick (very old refinery with minimal pollution controls), there wasn't much downside.

The California example showed that energy companies could make obscene profits by creating false shortages.

 

[ShadesOfGrey]

Originally posted by: ironwing

Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey

Hardly. You seem to be lacking in your knowledge of ethanol but we'll leave that aside for a while.
They don't need them? Yeah, who would want to be able to produce more product to keep up with the increasing demand. :roll:
Lets take a look at your Arizona misrepresentation:
20-30 million was raised by private investors just to get that refinery to this stage of the process.
from an anti-refinery site

The company has raised between $20 million and $30 million from private investors ? and spent that money ? over the last five years as it went through the permitting process.

Under state law, the permit is good for five years but will expire if Arizona Clean Fuels does not begin construction within 18 months of the permit?s effective date of May 14, ADEQ said.

Glenn McGinnis, Arizona Clean Fuels chief executive officer, said he believes the company can raise the necessary capital and start construction in time. McGinnis said a total of 50 individuals have invested money in the project thus far, though most of the capital has come from three investors.

McGinnis said all are U.S. investors and wish to remain anonymous. McGinnis said the company now will seek additional investors and work to get the additional permits the company needs to move forward with their plans. The refinery itself will cost about $2 billion, and a proposed underground crude oil pipeline from Mexico about $500 million.

McGinnis said the company will ask ADEQ for an extension if it can't meet the 18-month deadline.

The refinery would be the first one built in the United States in nearly 30 years. The 150,000 barrel-a-day facility would be located on vacant desert land 40 miles east of Yuma, near Tacna.

Company officials have estimated construction could start in 2006 and be completed in 2009.

So it has taken ~5 years just to get to/through the permit process and the nimby/enviros still are fighting it. Don't mind that it won't start producing gas until 2009. Sort of puts a damper on your peak-oil argument.
If anything, the California crisis(and now the hurricane disaster) show the need for more and better refineries - not less. Spreading our capabilities so thin(higher than 90% capacity) has put us in this current situation. So yes, thank you very much nimby/enviro people.

Again, where is the big money looking to invest in refineries? So far the promoters of the Yuma refinery have raised about 1% of the total cost of the refiney (using your numbers). They have cleared the major regulatory hurdle; they have the political establishment in Arizona in their corner; all they need is a big bag of money. So far the major refiners have not stepped forward. Also, the timeframe to get through permitting depends in large part on how fast the permit requestor moves. The regulators generally have mandated review deadlines to meet.

As an aside: I live in Arizona, I would be downwind of the proposed refiney, and I don't see a problem with this one. I've lived in a refinery town before and other than a few dead air nights when the air got a bit thick (very old refinery with minimal pollution controls), there wasn't much downside.

The California example showed that energy companies could make obscene profits by creating false shortages.

And it has only been a couple months since the clean air thing was granted. A bit premature of you to doom it to funds hell - no?

The cali situation also shows that if you have more capacity and a shortage created by an outage by one of your competitors is also a way to make big bank.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Engineer
Bush to release oil from SPR.

As others have pointed out, if you don't have refining capacity, what good does it do?

NPR was reporting this morning that Port Fouchon will be reopening today.

 

[conjur]

Gas just hit $3.09 here in Louisville.

It's up to $3.19 in Cincinnati

It has hit $3.69 in Chicago


Truck stops around Nashville are limiting trucks to 50 gallons each.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: conjur
Gas just hit $3.09 here in Louisville.

It's up to $3.19 in Cincinnati

It has hit $3.69 in Chicago


Truck stops around Nashville are limiting trucks to 50 gallons each.

So do you think people finally "get it"? or are we going to continue to allow our country to do nothing about gas/oil prices and fuel efficiency?

 

[conjur]

Unless people contact their State and US Reps and Senators and/or start changing their lifestyle to use more public transportation, carpool, stop moving to the exurbs in their McMansions and driving their 5,000lb SUVs, it won't change a thing...only the volume of the bitching will bump up a bit.