Opinons on Ford and its future

[Goosemaster]

I must admit that I was comforted in discovering similar positive sentiments about Ford right now, but would like to know what is expected of their future.

It looks like the future has a deeply indebited Ford that is still standing on it's own two feet but will need to compete with a UAW/USGOV - owned GM that will have massive debt aid. I feel this is highly unfair, despite GM's expected severe dismantling. Things such as tax cuts for Ford and such come to mind and some sort of netural thrid-party arbitration for supplier contract negotiations for fairness, but I wanted to hear what all of you were expecting.

On a side note, while I have no immediate need for a new vehicle, I would be hard pressed to even consider a GM or a Ford right now. Essentials asside (build quality, reliability, etc), my conservative-side would not let me shurg off their resilience as the torchbearer for capitalism in the american [-branded] automotive market. While GM was an institution, they failed to survive as a business, and I feel very bad for the comapnies that are fighting tooth and nail to survive on ther own. thoughts?

 

[Phokus]

If everyone doesn't consider buying a GM because it's 'government owned', then i hope you don't mind it being government owned indefinitely. This is a temporary stopgap measure. Trust me, Obama wants to unload GM asap.

 

[sandorski]

The whole angst about "competing against the Government" is ill concieved horse piss. It is a temporary measure that people refusing to purchase on some idiotic Ideologically position simply makes less temporary. One doesn't have to Buy GM because of that, but at least base the decision on something that makes sense. I highly suspect that those making such stupid declarations probably would not have Bought GM vehicles anyway though. They just found some new Slogan to bandy about, so I suppose it won't really affect GM much.

I suspect Government involvement in GM will be reduced significantly by this time next year, if it makes you feel any better. Complete freedom from the Government may take a few years as GM has a lot of Tax Payer $ to return. Wouldn't be surprised if a significant portion is Forgiven though.

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: Phokus
If everyone doesn't consider buying a GM because it's 'government owned', then i hope you don't mind it being government owned indefinitely. This is a temporary stopgap measure. Trust me, Obama wants to unload GM asap.

Originally posted by: sandorski
The whole angst about "competing against the Government" is ill concieved horse piss. It is a temporary measure that people refusing to purchase on some idiotic Ideologically position simply makes less temporary. One doesn't have to Buy GM because of that, but at least base the decision on something that makes sense. I highly suspect that those making such stupid declarations probably would not have Bought GM vehicles anyway though. They just found some new Slogan to bandy about, so I suppose it won't really affect GM much.

I suspect Government involvement in GM will be reduced significantly by this time next year, if it makes you feel any better. Complete freedom from the Government may take a few years as GM has a lot of Tax Payer $ to return. Wouldn't be surprised if a significant portion is Forgiven though.

I always find myself in the middle politically and I guess I just find this situation to be rather odd.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Goosemaster

Originally posted by: Phokus
If everyone doesn't consider buying a GM because it's 'government owned', then i hope you don't mind it being government owned indefinitely. This is a temporary stopgap measure. Trust me, Obama wants to unload GM asap.

Originally posted by: sandorski
The whole angst about "competing against the Government" is ill concieved horse piss. It is a temporary measure that people refusing to purchase on some idiotic Ideologically position simply makes less temporary. One doesn't have to Buy GM because of that, but at least base the decision on something that makes sense. I highly suspect that those making such stupid declarations probably would not have Bought GM vehicles anyway though. They just found some new Slogan to bandy about, so I suppose it won't really affect GM much.

I suspect Government involvement in GM will be reduced significantly by this time next year, if it makes you feel any better. Complete freedom from the Government may take a few years as GM has a lot of Tax Payer $ to return. Wouldn't be surprised if a significant portion is Forgiven though.

I always find myself in the middle politically and I guess I just find this situation to be rather odd.

It is Odd, but so are the Economic Times.

 

[Squisher]

All it'll take is the American public buying 14 million cars a year and all the car companies will be fine except maybe Chrysler. None of the companies foreign or domestic are set up to support a market that is selling 9 million a year.

 

[BarrySotero]

Obama's radical "green jobs" advisor Van Jones has said a car takes 8000 parts to build - and so does a windmill for power. He described a vision of Detroit area (already commercial he said) making windmills and exporting them instead of cars. I really don't think Obama really cares if people stop buying GM cars. It will just give him a chance to do something even more radical. What is "down" to most Americans is "up" to Obama.

"Cloward-Piven Strategy: Strategy for forcing political change through orchestrated crisis"

http://www.discoverthenetworks...Profile.asp?grpid=6967

 

[Cuda1447]

Originally posted by: Phokus
If everyone doesn't consider buying a GM because it's 'government owned', then i hope you don't mind it being government owned indefinitely. This is a temporary stopgap measure. Trust me, Obama wants to unload GM asap.

LOL, why should we trust you?

 

[Hacp]

What ford needs to do is have the Government help get rid of the pesky union contracts as well as pension obligations. Once wages dip down to 10-12 dollars an hour, Ford will instantly become competitive.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

Originally posted by: Phokus
If everyone doesn't consider buying a GM because it's 'government owned', then i hope you don't mind it being government owned indefinitely. This is a temporary stopgap measure. Trust me, Obama wants to unload GM asap.

LOL, why should we trust you?

Obama himself said it was temporary.

 

[bbdub333]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

Originally posted by: Phokus
If everyone doesn't consider buying a GM because it's 'government owned', then i hope you don't mind it being government owned indefinitely. This is a temporary stopgap measure. Trust me, Obama wants to unload GM asap.

LOL, why should we trust you?

Obama himself said it was temporary.

And Bush said Iraq had WMDs... right?

 

[KB]

I think Ford is in pretty good shape for the future. They have already gotten union concessions and as the last American car maker, if anyone wants to buy American, they have to buy Ford. Sure GM will be back, but in what way we can't be sure. If the government runs GM in any way I expect GM will disappear forever as their cars will be a lot more expensive than Fords.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

I will say this about Ford. Before this whole bailout mess, I would have never considered buying a Ford. Now, they are the only American car company I will ever consider purchasing from.

 

[Possessed Freak]

Originally posted by: sandorski
It is Odd, but so are the Economic Times.

This is an excuse that allows for odd ball solutions. The Patriot Act (something I completely disagree with) was an odd ball solution for the Dark Times that was post 9-11-01.

Why is GM special? Why do they get special treatment? Because they are large? Who cares, if a corporation that large can not live through a year drought, then they obviously have been failing for a LONG time. Let them die.

 

[boomerang]

I don't feel that GM is even remotely in any kind of an enviable position.

The public as a whole is against the government intervention as well as the company itself. A large percentage of the population has no interest in domestic cars from any manufacturer. While I can understand that some may see a GM bankruptcy under the current conditions as a possible advantage, many in the U.S. see it as further justification for not supporting the company. What you see as debt aid, others see as an obligation that needs to be paid back. Time will tell on that issue.

I don't feel Ford has anything to fear from GM. If GM emerges from this, they will be a far smaller company than they were before. On scale alone, Ford will have them beat. I should say that I am just using the U.S. market for this comparison.

They utilize the same suppliers, which are all going under, so there's parity there.

It's been predicted that 3 to 4 car manufacturers will not survive the global economic downturn. Will the weak survive - probably not. Will a company on life support survive - probably not. I say probably because the deck is still stacked against domestics IMO. Our markets are open. Japan's markets are closed. Domestics can sell a limited number of cars there. Here, that number is limited only by what the market will bear. Between government subsidies of their auto companies, currency manipulations, fees, taxes and tariffs that can double the price of a U.S. car sold in Japan, the playing field is not even remotely level.

If you look at the money pumped into Chrysler and GM as an investment, do we need to take steps to guarantee to the best of our ability a return on that investment? Do we want to maintain the status quo or make our car markets more like those with whom we compete?

Do we want to avoid buying domestic cars based on whatever reasons suits us, or do we want to give them a chance and thereby help ensure a return on our investment? These are personal decisions.

You're concerned that GM may now have an unfair advantage over Ford. Perhaps. But it's clear than Asian automakers have had a clear advantage over domestics for decades. They've been government subsidized since their inception while at the same time showing us a door opened just a crack.

I don't expect our government to make any changes. So, I will reiterate what I have said numerous times before here. Chrysler is as good as gone. Fiat will end up liquidating the assets of the company and run back home with the profits laughing all the way. GM will not survive in the U.S. market. They will move overseas and prosper. It's just too late for them here. Their only supporter here is the government. It's not going to be enough. Ford will be sucked into the vortex. After an infusion of government money, they will fold. Public sentiment after losing billions on both the Chrysler and GM debacle's will taint Ford in the public eye.

Manufacturing by U.S. companies will cease in this country. It doesn't have to happen that way, but protectionism is a bad word in the U.S. It's logical, common practice everywhere else, but here it's a bad, bad thing.

There's my glass is empty assessment.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Possessed Freak

Originally posted by: sandorski
It is Odd, but so are the Economic Times.

This is an excuse that allows for odd ball solutions. The Patriot Act (something I completely disagree with) was an odd ball solution for the Dark Times that was post 9-11-01.

Why is GM special? Why do they get special treatment? Because they are large? Who cares, if a corporation that large can not live through a year drought, then they obviously have been failing for a LONG time. Let them die.

There's nothing "oddball" about it. It's similar to how Reagan dealt with the S&L crissis.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: bbdub333

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

Originally posted by: Phokus
If everyone doesn't consider buying a GM because it's 'government owned', then i hope you don't mind it being government owned indefinitely. This is a temporary stopgap measure. Trust me, Obama wants to unload GM asap.

LOL, why should we trust you?

Obama himself said it was temporary.

And Bush said Iraq had WMDs... right?

Ya, but Bush was a Liar and Idiot. Obama is doing what Reagan did.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: boomerang
I don't feel that GM is even remotely in any kind of an enviable position.

The public as a whole is against the government intervention as well as the company itself. A large percentage of the population has no interest in domestic cars from any manufacturer. While I can understand that some may see a GM bankruptcy under the current conditions as a possible advantage, many in the U.S. see it as further justification for not supporting the company. What you see as debt aid, others see as an obligation that needs to be paid back. Time will tell on that issue.

I don't feel Ford has anything to fear from GM. If GM emerges from this, they will be a far smaller company than they were before. On scale alone, Ford will have them beat. I should say that I am just using the U.S. market for this comparison.

They utilize the same suppliers, which are all going under, so there's parity there.

It's been predicted that 3 to 4 car manufacturers will not survive the global economic downturn. Will the weak survive - probably not. Will a company on life support survive - probably not. I say probably because the deck is still stacked against domestics IMO. Our markets are open. Japan's markets are closed. Domestics can sell a limited number of cars there. Here, that number is limited only by what the market will bear. Between government subsidies of their auto companies, currency manipulations, fees, taxes and tariffs that can double the price of a U.S. car sold in Japan, the playing field is not even remotely level.

If you look at the money pumped into Chrysler and GM as an investment, do we need to take steps to guarantee to the best of our ability a return on that investment? Do we want to maintain the status quo or make our car markets more like those with whom we compete?

Do we want to avoid buying domestic cars based on whatever reasons suits us, or do we want to give them a chance and thereby help ensure a return on our investment? These are personal decisions.

You're concerned that GM may now have an unfair advantage over Ford. Perhaps. But it's clear than Asian automakers have had a clear advantage over domestics for decades. They've been government subsidized since their inception while at the same time showing us a door opened just a crack.

I don't expect our government to make any changes. So, I will reiterate what I have said numerous times before here. Chrysler is as good as gone. Fiat will end up liquidating the assets of the company and run back home with the profits laughing all the way. GM will not survive in the U.S. market. They will move overseas and prosper. It's just too late for them here. Their only supporter here is the government. It's not going to be enough. Ford will be sucked into the vortex. After an infusion of government money, they will fold. Public sentiment after losing billions on both the Chrysler and GM debacle's will taint Ford in the public eye.

Manufacturing by U.S. companies will cease in this country. It doesn't have to happen that way, but protectionism is a bad word in the U.S. It's logical, common practice everywhere else, but here it's a bad, bad thing.

There's my glass is empty assessment.

Excellent post! :thumbsup:

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

I think Fords future is bright. Through all of this people are seeing that Ford is making good business decisions finally, and is making a product that people want. I've been a die hard GM fan for over a decade, but my next purchase will be a Ford. I will not support GM now that they are Government Motors. IF they managed to get themselves out of this mess and away from goverment control, I'll consider them again, but I will not purchase something from a government entity as I do not believe the government should be in business as a business.

 

[mooseracing]

Originally posted by: bbdub333

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

Originally posted by: Phokus
If everyone doesn't consider buying a GM because it's 'government owned', then i hope you don't mind it being government owned indefinitely. This is a temporary stopgap measure. Trust me, Obama wants to unload GM asap.

LOL, why should we trust you?

Obama himself said it was temporary.

And Bush said Iraq had WMDs... right?

Not to mention the fact that Obama has already lied multiple times....


Either way there is quite a few peopel that don't want to buy GM/Chrysler because it is being considered unpatriotic. Being that the govt is interventing in a business is ruining the capitalism.

I didn't like GM or Chrysler, I'm a Ford person. That being said, if Ford was failing they should get a bailout either. Companies need to fail, we need to evolve. These businesses that are getting bailouts are being taught there is no consequences for running it into the ground.

I'd like to know when I get my dividends from Chrysler, GM, and the other businesses that are now "gov owned"

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Originally posted by: mooseracing

Originally posted by: bbdub333

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

Originally posted by: Phokus
If everyone doesn't consider buying a GM because it's 'government owned', then i hope you don't mind it being government owned indefinitely. This is a temporary stopgap measure. Trust me, Obama wants to unload GM asap.

LOL, why should we trust you?

Obama himself said it was temporary.

And Bush said Iraq had WMDs... right?

Not to mention the fact that Obama has already lied multiple times....


Either way there is quite a few peopel that don't want to buy GM/Chrysler because it is being considered unpatriotic. Being that the govt is interventing in a business is ruining the capitalism.

I didn't like GM or Chrysler, I'm a Ford person. That being said, if Ford was failing they should get a bailout either. Companies need to fail, we need to evolve. These businesses that are getting bailouts are being taught there is no consequences for running it into the ground.

I'd like to know when I get my dividends from Chrysler, GM, and the other businesses that are now "gov owned"

Well if it is Gov owned, that would mean I'm a share holder, thus I get a say in how it's run. I demand that I get to use a company corvette.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Phokus
If everyone doesn't consider buying a GM because it's 'government owned', then i hope you don't mind it being government owned indefinitely. This is a temporary stopgap measure. Trust me, Obama wants to unload GM asap.

I think you're full of 'bull', not intentionally - but full of it never-the-less.

For one, you have nothing other than guesses about what Obama wants. I think my guess is as good as your's - and I'm guessing he wants to do MORE than just get rid of it ASAP.

If you thought about it for more than a nonsecond, you'd realize your pronouncement here is a huge insult to Obama - so he 'took it on' to just rid of it'? Hahaha, he doesn't have an 'exit strategy' so far as any reasonable person can see and so he took it on to just rid of it?. If he took it on to just dump billions into without a plan he'd a enormous fool, even with a 'plan' he may turn out to look like one anyway.

No, to dump this kind of money money into GM he damn well better have plan other than just 'getting rid of it asap'. And, really, no matter what he wants the Dems in Congress control the 'show', and they want more than just to dump it 'asap'.

Fern

 

[ElFenix]

i like how a thread about ostensibly about ford has become a thread about GM

ford releases may sales numbers
ford is increasing its production targets for the 2nd and 3rd quater, and sales were up 20% over april

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: Hacp
What ford needs to do is have the Government help get rid of the pesky union contracts as well as pension obligations. Once wages dip down to 10-12 dollars an hour, Ford will instantly become competitive.

LOL. I was making $10/hour as a Best Buy tech back when I was in college. Most of us came in in the morning hungover as all hell and were rude to the customers. Pay $10/hour and that's what you'll get... a bunch of drunken bums doing crummy work to pay their bar tab.

You have to pay a little more if you want people who give two shits.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: Hacp
What ford needs to do is have the Government help get rid of the pesky union contracts as well as pension obligations. Once wages dip down to 10-12 dollars an hour, Ford will instantly become competitive.

LOL. I was making $10/hour as a Best Buy tech back when I was in college. Most of us came in in the morning hungover as all hell and were rude to the customers. Pay $10/hour and that's what you'll get... a bunch of drunken bums doing crummy work to pay their bar tab.

You have to pay a little more if you want people who give two shits.

Not really, you have to pay what the job is worth. If people like you won't do them then those jobs will go elsewhere.

I really don't know what a typical Ford factory job is worth, just saying...